388 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

R Razor, on 13 November 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

I don't play competetive 12 man drops genius, but I know enough people that do to know what they see and run in them. I'm not on a high horse, in fact I have exactly 2 mechs that has more than 1 AC on them..........that doesn't change the fact that to be competetive in that environment you will be forced to run an AC build thanks to the current meta. I realize you might have a hard time comprehending what I'm saying but I honestly can't see any way to "dumb it down" any more than I already have.

As the poster above me stated, 40 vs 20 damage in the same time frame from what are supposed to be simularly balanced weapons. Chew on that for a bit and get back to me.

So you don't even play them yet you know what will and won't work in them? I can't be the only one who sees the irony in this...... lol

it also doesn't change the fact that you don't have to play in 12mans to be competitive. There's not some secret game inside of 12man drops. There's nothing you get extra for playing in a 12man. So why would a player HAVE to play with 12mans to play the game or participate in CW?

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

Driving this or this.

You sir should be banned for bucking the meta-wagon and swimming against the current...

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 13 November 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

You sir should be banned for bucking the meta-wagon and swimming against the current...

I have built my Mechs for over 30 years. I like what I like. I have been surprised by very few Custom Builds or even fewer Stock Mechs in that amount of time. The only thing stopping me from being a top tier player is old eyes and bad reflexes.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

The only thing stopping me from being a top tier player is old eyes and bad reflexes.

So the rumor is true.... The LAW do keep you around to fulfill their Comstar mandated quota of "senior mech pilots".

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 13 November 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

So the rumor is true.... The LAW do keep you around to fulfill their Comstar mandated quota of "senior mech pilots".

Our CO (DocBach) was born around the time I was enlisting('85). And a fellow Old Fart (Banichi), Served through pretty much every hot spot from the same time. We don't have to many older than us. So yeah... Equal opportunity enlistment!

[Sir Ratburger]

I dont know how some of you guys have come to the conclusion that AC weapons are overpowered compared to energy weapons - throw DPS calculations around all you want but at the end of the day they are pretty balanced and some suite situiations better than others.

You have to take into account that AC weapons weigh a lot and also need ammo - lets take an AC20 for example, it weighs 14 tons and 1 ton extra per 7 shots of ammo. lets say 15 tons just to operate it and get 7 shots but you could put 4 medium lasers on your mech which would weigh 4 tons and do the same damage.

You have to consider the fact that the AC20 does 1 shot damage and screen shake but the medium lasers would spread the damage but never run out of ammo and weigh ridiculously less. the AC20 has almost no heat but 4 lasers would generate quite a bit in conjunction with other weapons meaning you would have to retreat and cool down whereas the AC20 would just keep going. You pay a price any way you look at it... be it weight, ammo limits or heat.

Why do people use AC2's, 5's or 10's which weigh so much and need ammo instead of much higher damage lasers? prefrence, gaming style - In my experience brawlers who want to get close up and keep firing tend to use AC weapons as its hard to hit fast moving targets at a distance too but sometimes it pays off, people who use lasers tend to try do it at a distance or run around and try cool down before landing the next few shots or go in balls deep for the final blow after damaging them from a distance - just because you are getting your butts handed to you by people who know how to use these weapons does not make them overpowered.

You just have to find a defence, first thing I would reccomend is not running in head first against a mech with AC weapons even if you are packing 6 scary large lasers as you will take enormous amounts of damage... thats if you survive the encounter in the first place. I would reccomend people using AC weapons to use screen shake and getting up close to thier advantage and just keep firing.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sir Ratburger, on 13 November 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

I dont know how some of you guys have come to the conclusion that AC weapons are overpowered compared to energy weapons - throw DPS calculations around all you want but at the end of the day they are pretty balanced and some suite situiations better than others.

Ok in 10 seconds of battle the AC10 can hit you with 4 slugs for a max of 40 damage. A PPC can hit you twice, for a max of 20 damage. PPCs need to be able to match an AC10s damage output for me to say they are balanced.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 November 2013 - 08:06 AM.

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Ok in 10 seconds of battle the AC10 can hit you with 4 slugs for a max of 40 damage. A PPC can hit you twice, for a max of 20 damage. PPCs need to be able to match an AC10s damage output for me to say they are balanced.

An ac10 weighs 12 tons. Considering ammo, you could run 2 ppc's for the same tonnage. They run hotter, but for how you engage with them (fire, get in cover) that does not matter much. Running an ac10 gives you better dps at the cost of alpha damage. This gives both weapons a usable niche and helps create a little build variety. Ac10 for brawl-ier builds, ppc's for longer ranged engagements.

Consider that before the latest ppc/erppc nerfs, a 40 ton Cicada 3M with a ppc+erppc made a great counter sniper. Replacing those with an ac10 would have made a much worse mech.

[MadcatX]

Febrosian R Gillingham, on 13 November 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

An ac10 weighs 12 tons. Considering ammo, you could run 2 ppc's for the same tonnage. They run hotter, but for how you engage with them (fire, get in cover) that does not matter much. Running an ac10 gives you better dps at the cost of alpha damage. This gives both weapons a usable niche and helps create a little build variety. Ac10 for brawl-ier builds, ppc's for longer ranged engagements.

Consider that before the latest ppc/erppc nerfs, a 40 ton Cicada 3M with a ppc+erppc made a great counter sniper. Replacing those with an ac10 would have made a much worse mech.

True, until the Cicada gets sniped by a mech with a higher alpha sniping build when it is popping out and aiming it's shot.

[YueFei]

MadcatX, on 13 November 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

True, until the Cicada gets sniped by a mech with a higher alpha sniping build when it is popping out and aiming it's shot.

You could try to engage from 1000+ meters with ERPPCs, where the Cicada's speed lets it *literally* dodge enemy fire (takes a PPC bolt 666 milliseconds to get to target, human reflexes are about 200 milliseconds). Given the speed and size profile of a Cicada, versus the speed and size profile of an enemy Heavy or Assault sniper, there is going to be a sweet spot where the Cicada can always hit assuming perfect aim, and yet still be able to dodge return fire, even assuming the enemy Heavy/Assault sniper has perfect aim. I dunno if that sweet spot is at 1000 meters, but it logically must exist.

Of course such a Cicada loses to any other Cicada built for close-in fighting. That's the trade-off in the design.

[Sandpit]

YueFei, on 13 November 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Of course such a Cicada loses to any other Cicada built for close-in fighting. That's the trade-off in the design.

[Joseph Mallan]

Febrosian R Gillingham, on 13 November 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

An ac10 weighs 12 tons. Considering ammo, you could run 2 ppc's for the same tonnage. They run hotter, but for how you engage with them (fire, get in cover) that does not matter much. Running an ac10 gives you better dps at the cost of alpha damage. This gives both weapons a usable niche and helps create a little build variety. Ac10 for brawl-ier builds, ppc's for longer ranged engagements.

Consider that before the latest ppc/erppc nerfs, a 40 ton Cicada 3M with a ppc+erppc made a great counter sniper. Replacing those with an ac10 would have made a much worse mech.

And you are tying to tell me I am wrong? I am a power player shooting an enemy for minutes is against all my training. My favorite Quote, "If you are in a fight longer than 3 seconds, get out. You are going to get hurt!" Sifu Ambrose.

[Cycleboy]

People still keep comparing cherries to apples (not oranges, because at least they are similar mass). Small mechs use energy weapons because the integral heat capacity of their engine is sufficient to buffer most of their heat from energy weapons with speed enough to break engagement and run away. Once you hit 50-55tons, with the ability to carry the weight of a ballistic, you get them if you can.

Again... if you could get a Stalker variant with a ballistic in each arm and each side torso, would you take that over the 6 energy slot Stalker???

[Sandpit]

Cycleboy, on 13 November 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

.

Again... if you could get a Stalker variant with a ballistic in each arm and each side torso, would you take that over the 6 energy slot Stalker???

no

[Haji1096]

ACs are not over powered.

In this version of the game its the most efficient way to apply damage. Most engagements happen at medium range, ACs are good for that. ACs are not a liability at short range. They are the most heat efficient.

Energy weapons have been nerfed by heat and the length of each match is not long enough for the endurance of energy weapons to shine through.

SRMS have hit detection issues.

LRMS require a lot of coordination and team work, and are impractical on small maps.

The bottom line is that players will always gravitate towards the easiest way to kill mechs.

[Galenit]

xengk, on 12 November 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

2x 2x max range will not change anything, ballistic will still be preferred over energy weapon due to pinpoint damage and heat efficiency.

2x range, 1x tt ammo and 35% explosion chance for ammo and you make the acs perfect burstdamage weapons.
Thats what their role was in tt and what they should be here. (Gauss and AC2 are in another group as writen in the post you answerd to.)

As you said pinpoint damage, low heat.
With more dps and rof then any other weapons.
But you cant use them anymore on all ranges, have to make your shoots count and ammo is more dangerous.

They other way is reducing their rof/dps and giving them more heat, but that wont match in the whole picture.

Edited by Galenit, 13 November 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Tombstoner]

The trade off between ac and ppc should have been accuracy benefits with range. with pps being better and ac's acting more like MG's with a narrow COF for damage at range. but accuracy differences between weapons systems for this game have been removed with consequences. now ac rule cause of heat and they offer a great time to kill. much better then energy weapons.
boost the range of medium lasers and i think they will take over as FOTM.

Edited by Tombstoner, 13 November 2013 - 10:25 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cycleboy, on 13 November 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

People still keep comparing cherries to apples (not oranges, because at least they are similar mass). Small mechs use energy weapons because the integral heat capacity of their engine is sufficient to buffer most of their heat from energy weapons with speed enough to break engagement and run away. Once you hit 50-55tons, with the ability to carry the weight of a ballistic, you get them if you can.

Again... if you could get a Stalker variant with a ballistic in each arm and/OR each side torso, would you take that over the 6 energy slot Stalker???

I might, because I do not like to have an over abundance of a single weapon type. Now if it had 2 Ballistic 2 Missile an 2-4 energy slots I'd throw money at it!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 November 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

The damage to the rate of fire to their range to the heat is way over the top. Someone chain firing AC can fire just as fast as someone chain firing small lasers and the AC do a *bleep* load of damage when chain fired!

Lower the rate of fire
or
lower the damage
or
up the heat
or
make them like PPC where they have a range they need to be fired in any thing closer or further they do 0 damage.

There are plenty of things you can do to bring the AC in check.

Thank you.

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 12 November 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Min-maxers aren't the problem. Min-maxers find imbalances in the system and exploit them. But ultimately its the fact those imbalances exist in the first place that's the problem.

Crazy talk really. Until all the weapons have one damage/heat and range profile, there will ALWAYS be min-max'ing going on. Doesn't mean that is the best way to win, just the best any one chassis Mech can be optimized. Not everyone spells "optimized" the same way thankfully.