910 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Curccu, on 20 November 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

and just 1 AMS can neautralize you totally

That's nothing I've ever had happen. Now if 8-10 mechs are clumped together and running AMS? THAT can ruin a lurmer's day

[Curccu]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

That's nothing I've ever had happen. Now if 8-10 mechs are clumped together and running AMS? THAT can ruin a lurmer's day

Not even with LRM5 cat on chainfire?

[Mercules]

Victor Morson, on 20 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Nobody does dedicated LRM spotting unless they are terrible.

Every hear of a Falacy called "No True Scottsman"?

Well this statement is a mix of that and an Ad Hominem all in one. You are saying "No truly good players are dedicated LRM spotters, which is unlikely to be true and being of the group "Good Player" does not preclude being a dedicated LRM spotter by the nature of most definitions of the term "Good Player". On top of that you are basically saying anyone who claims to do dedicated LRM spotting is a bad player. Maybe in your opinion they chose a bad role to take on, but that alone does not make them a "Bad Player".

[Sandpit]

Curccu, on 20 November 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Not even with LRM5 cat on chainfire?

no, not even with LRM5s on chain fire. I take shots, just not as many

[Victor Morson]

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Every hear of a Falacy called "No True Scottsman"?

Well this statement is a mix of that and an Ad Hominem all in one. You are saying "No truly good players are dedicated LRM spotters, which is unlikely to be true and being of the group "Good Player" does not preclude being a dedicated LRM spotter by the nature of most definitions of the term "Good Player". On top of that you are basically saying anyone who claims to do dedicated LRM spotting is a bad player. Maybe in your opinion they chose a bad role to take on, but that alone does not make them a "Bad Player".

No, there are no dedicated spotters because dedicated spotters die. Every single time. They need to hold direct LOS on the main group, and eventually even the fastest and best Spider is going to eat ten kinds of autocannons, gauss and PPC fire moments after they try their "spotting run."

Brawlers can kind of spot for indirect because they are in a sustained slug match, but even then as I said, indirect fire is super sloppy and doesn't deal much worthwhile damage; it's chip damage at best and if it was the best LRMs could offer I would loathe them. You need direct LOS and ideally <750m TAG range or you are mostly just burning ammo for little benefit; you can't even hit a moving light or some mediums at all in indirect.

Again, if you are having ANYONE on your team act as a dedicated spotter, you are doing it wrong. Recon needs to take quick peaks and bolt.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 November 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

That's nothing I've ever had happen. Now if 8-10 mechs are clumped together and running AMS? THAT can ruin a lurmer's day

Actually, you are thinking of firing a proper number of LRMs, Sandpit; i.e. 2x LRM15 or more.

If someone is trying one of those builds that runs, say, a single LRM/10 a single AMS mech will entirely shut that down. Even a single LRM20 will get shut down if a dual AMS mech happens to be in the flight path between the LRM user and the target; the missiles will be down to, at best, under 5 after that.

The problem is, really again, the mechs in the flight path. Your AMS only gets to fire at the missiles coming for you in the "front arc" but 'mechs in the flight path get to fire at the missiles in a 360 degree arc, doubling the time they have to shut down missiles.

So basically unless you run 30+ missiles (why I always tell people to dedicate to LRMs or don't run them) this scenario is all too real.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 November 2013 - 12:52 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

It's like any other thread complaining about "op" stuff in game. You get a decent team together and 2-3 good support mechs doing their job and it can create chaos for the enemy team. One good scout and 2-3 good lrm boats will rain death down upon enemies. That's what is SUPPOSED to happen. It's called teamwork. You should try it some time. It will do wonders for your win/loss and kdr.

In practice that can happen, if you swap the scout for an assault. I'd never use our light 'mechs for LRM spotting; they're peak-and-go only. But if you have one of your guys fit in something that can slug it out, that can still work for spotting but for all the reasons I've outlined, you don't want to waste ammo on anything that's moving over 60kp/h, and even then, the LRMs are going to want to get their own LOS on target ASAP.

EDIT: I guess the forums don't automatically merge multiple posts now. Woops.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 November 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[Victor Morson]

120mm, on 20 November 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

My cat a1 has max armour so I don't mind wading in even at knife fighting range. An alpha of 30 into your chest from an artemis boat at 200m is gonna hurt.

Can't agree about the ranged indirect fire for chained lrm5 though. Even with no artemis los they stay tightly grouped and show maximum coverage of the center areas with minimal spread.

Larger launchers of course will be less effective the bigger they get.

The groups are tight, but the track speed is awful without TAG. Which means the 6xLRM5 A1 is going to be virtually worthless against Ravens & Jenners and bad against even mediums like the Centurion. Also it's way too slow to risk getting into <300m range and will get promptly mauled shortly thereafter.

It's just not the optimal boat.

[Mercules]

Victor Morson, on 20 November 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

No, there are no dedicated spotters because dedicated spotters die. Every single time.

Hyperbole! and again "No true Scottsman".

I've taken on the dedicated spotter role, I've survived, I've helped my team bring down waves of missiles upon people's heads. I can't always hold the targets as long as I want but I am on voice coms with my LRM users and give them updates constantly.

"Charlie is moving into cover let me know when I can switch targets."
"They spotted me breaking LoS in 4... 3... 2... now."
"Hold on and fire on targets of convenience while I loop back and get a better angle. Okay, in position now, TAG on Gamma......... Your missiles are hitting well. He is moving. I'm still good but I think the Atlas spotted me. Yup... Atlas moving in on me now switching to him for main target please assist against Foxtrot.... Hold fire having to break LoS."

Edited by Mercules, 20 November 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[ColonelMetus]

you can tell by the hundreads of responses, that lrms are fine

[Mercules]

ColonelMetus, on 20 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

you can tell by the hundreads of responses, that lrms are fine

Bandwagon Fallacy....

Lots of people claiming there is imbalance does not mean there actually is an imbalance, it may be that they are unable to think their way into solutions.

This is also a False Cause Fallacy...

Just because people are dying to LRMs does not mean LRMs are broken. It could mean they are bad players and don't use tactics that negate LRMs. LRMs are not the only weapon that becomes more effective based on your opponent's lack of intelligence, but they are certainly the most obvious one.

[Cimarb]

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

I've taken on the dedicated spotter role, I've survived, I've helped my team bring down waves of missiles upon people's heads. I can't always hold the targets as long as I want but I am on voice coms with my LRM users and give them updates constantly.

&quot;Charlie is moving into cover let me know when I can switch targets.&quot;
&quot;They spotted me breaking LoS in 4... 3... 2... now.&quot;
&quot;Hold on and fire on targets of convenience while I loop back and get a better angle. Okay, in position now, TAG on Gamma......... Your missiles are hitting well. He is moving. I'm still good but I think the Atlas spotted me. Yup... Atlas moving in on me now switching to him for main target please assist against Foxtrot.... Hold fire having to break LoS.&quot;

Communication is OP - nerf it!

ColonelMetus, on 20 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

you can tell by the hundreads of responses, that lrms are fine

I think you are trying to be sarcastic, based upon your previous posts, but you are very correct: LRMs are just fine.

[St4LkeRxF]

I use LRMs for suppressive fire and for that they are fine, that way it is possible to corner enemy and use artillery strike for even more damage.

Another good thing is that with suppressive fire you can hold line and give enough time for your team to flank enemy, and many people when hear incoming missile tend to turn back and lose rear armor and get red internals which are easy kill for light mechs with Machine guns.

They are not deadly as some think they are, it is just people that know how to use them will make you cry.

[Wispsy]

Victor Morson, on 20 November 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

No, there are no dedicated spotters because dedicated spotters die. Every single time. They need to hold direct LOS on the main group, and eventually even the fastest and best Spider is going to eat ten kinds of autocannons, gauss and PPC fire moments after they try their "spotting run."

Brawlers can kind of spot for indirect because they are in a sustained slug match, but even then as I said, indirect fire is super sloppy and doesn't deal much worthwhile damage; it's chip damage at best and if it was the best LRMs could offer I would loathe them. You need direct LOS and ideally <750m TAG range or you are mostly just burning ammo for little benefit; you can't even hit a moving light or some mediums at all in indirect.

Again, if you are having ANYONE on your team act as a dedicated spotter, you are doing it wrong. Recon needs to take quick peaks and bolt.

I have been in 12mans before in which we actually had 2/3 dedicated spotters. I am fairly sure it was successful, we did not lose a single game, even losing mechs was rare, the enemy simply did not have a chance to fight back.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Victor Morson, on 20 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

The groups are tight, but the track speed is awful without TAG. Which means the 6xLRM5 A1 is going to be virtually worthless against Ravens &amp; Jenners and bad against even mediums like the Centurion. Also it's way too slow to risk getting into &lt;300m range and will get promptly mauled shortly thereafter.
It's just not the optimal boat.

Not only is it not optimal, it is a waste of tonnage/credits imo. There was a time long ago when that build owned and irritated a great many players and was single handedly ****** people. Now with all the changes that have come about (not just to lrms but srms and streaks) it is nearly useless.
You have to stack larger LRM's to be effective at this point. Which is fine. The days of Lurmageddon were ridiculous and im very glad they are gone and very much like where LRM's are at the present time.
However I am not going to say there are not times when the 6lrm5A1 can be effective, its just less likely now than ever in the past.

ColonelMetus, on 20 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

you can tell by the hundreads of responses, that lrms are fine

The 'masses' are not a great way to gauge the validity of something, that is just popular opinion for the most part. Generally the masses ie. the sheep base there conclusions on assumptions and ignorance, you know like those masses of sheep who love to holler out 'USA is number 1 in everything'.

Quote

St4LkeRxF
Posted Today, 02:47 PM

I use LRMs for suppressive fire and for that they are fine, that way it is possible to corner enemy and use artillery strike for even more damage.

Another good thing is that with suppressive fire you can hold line and give enough time for your team to flank enemy, and many people when hear incoming missile tend to turn back and lose rear armor and get red internals which are easy kill for light mechs with Machine guns.

I would agree w/all your post w/exception to lights w/machine guns part. They definatley have a crowd control aspect that many do not account for.

[PappySmurf]

Played a few games today after the patch it was just a joke all but 1 game I played I died by LRM's and no I was not just running out in the open I was behind hills and buildings and the lrm's seam to just go right through them.If I ever meet a PGI DEV im going to shove a lrm right up his aSSSS .PGI has done nothing but turn me away from the game even more by its dumb meta and balance issues.

Edited by PappySmurf, 20 November 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Mercules]

xMEPHISTOx, on 20 November 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

I would agree w/all your post w/exception to lights w/machine guns part. They definatley have a crowd control aspect that many do not account for.

I've seen people "troll" others with a Dragon that had a single LRM 5 in the CT. Basically when he needed to "suppress" a target he would lock and and let fly with the LRM 5. Since you can't tell if, "Incomming Missiles" means 5 or 80... well... you have to react. He could then move freely while keeping the other mechs in cover unless they actually looked up to see what was flying in their direction.

PappySmurf, on 20 November 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

Played a few games today after the patch it was just a joke all but 1 game I played I died by LRM's and no I was not just running out in the open I was behind hills and buildings and the lrm's seam to just go right through them.If I ever meet a PGI DEV im going to shove a lrm right up his aSSSS .PGI has done nothing but turn me away from the gam by its dumb meta and balance issues.

Did you notice the Locust/Spider behind you keeping you locked for the LRMs? That is how they, "seam to just go right through them." The other possibility is that they launched them at you and you backed down the hill or behind a building but even though they lost contact the missiles still tracked to the last spot they had a lock on you and hit you anyway. You have to break LoS and move TO THE SIDE to avoid them.

[Sandpit]

My opinion, LRMs are balanced, as is the rest of the game for the most part. Perfect? Nope. But pretty darn good

[WVAnonymous]

Victor Morson, on 20 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Anyone who is complaining about "spotters" and indirect fire truly doesn't understand anything at all about LRMs. Indirect fire is mostly a waste of ammunition because even if the lock is maintained, the missiles won't get the group tightening effects of Artemis/Tag and instead of delivering missile after missiles right to the center mass, you'll lightly tickle most of their components and the ground around them. If someone says indirect firepower is OP, they have no idea what they are talking about. Likewise, anyone trying to run around "spotting" for LRMs is going to end up dead. The only people that make effective spotters are brawlers, not scouts, because they will be able to maintain lock and linger without being instantly nuked. Nobody does dedicated LRM spotting unless they are terrible. Good LRM pilots are almost always found sub-750m, running their own TAG and all strive to maintain LOS to get the most tracking/damage per precious ton of ammo.

I carry TAG on anything with a spare energy slot, including BLRs. I had 13 spotting assists in a single match over the weekend and I haven't run anything under 65 tons in weeks.

[Squiggy McPew]

Victor Morson, on 20 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

The groups are tight, but the track speed is awful without TAG. Which means the 6xLRM5 A1 is going to be virtually worthless against Ravens & Jenners and bad against even mediums like the Centurion. Also it's way too slow to risk getting into <300m range and will get promptly mauled shortly thereafter.

It's just not the optimal boat.

Do you even cat a1? I'm not having a single issue you guys are talking about. This thing eats scouts like a fat kid eats cake.

As to the getting in close at ~300m stuff I stick to my lance(or whatever group that has jelled) so if someone is going after me then they are getting shot by my lance and vice versa.

edit; actually I think I know the point of confusion about the 'effectiveness' of lrm. It's that there are really two games going on with the larger premades rolling in well fit and well coordinated teams which makes lrm spam less effective or the ones like me who lone wolf it and face mostly other lone wolves which makes lrm very effective.

Edited by 120mm, 20 November 2013 - 07:57 PM.