910 replies to this topic

[Ngamok]

Cimarb, on 03 April 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

There really should be some considerable difference between the spread of indirect and direct fire, though - I will definitely concede that point.

Yea, the 175 m/s should have stayed for Direct Fire where the carrier has LOS on the mechs he/she is shooting at. Using a Spotter for Indirect Fire? Enjoy your 120 m/s

[Cimarb]

Ngamok, on 03 April 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Yea, the 175 m/s should have stayed for Direct Fire where the carrier has LOS on the mechs he/she is shooting at. Using a Spotter for Indirect Fire? Enjoy your 120 m/s

I agree, but I honestly think it should be more than just a speed difference. Indirect fire should be a toggle that allows you to fire indirectly, but with a drastically slower speed, high arc flight path, and extreme spread on the missiles. Allied spotters, TAG and NARC should all help with those, but it still be worse than un-assisted direct fire. Direct fire, then, should be faster, almost direct flight path and much less spread on the missiles. TAG, NARC and Artemis should decrease all of those in direct fire as well.

So a direct fire, TAG/NARC/Artemis salvo should be a very tight focus, completely straight and fast.
On the flip side, an indirect, unassisted salvo should pretty much carpet the ground as much as the target mech.

[Lyoto Machida]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 April 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Cause Missiles are both direct and indirect fire weapons. Its not a whine its a statement of fact. You can't play a combat game and for get how combat is meant to be fought.

I have no issues with indirect fire...some people on here feel very strongly that LRMs take no skill whatsover however. All I'm trying to do is placate those people so that they have nothing to cry about in terms of LRMs (but most likely still will).

[KharnZor]

this thread....

[Davers]

Guess OP should have made the title 'LRM Flooding, the new flavour of the week'

[Tesunie]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 02 April 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

The firs two are from 2013 so I didn't really read them. Pretty much you just need to know your environment and position relative to targets/teammates and keep situational awareness. Which is true for every player. Also don't stand within 180m of your fellow lrm boats so you can cover each other. To play lrms in solo queue can require skill to succeed but with a good spotter and several lrm boat allies it can be far too destructive for the effort involved.

The problem with lrms is the ease at which focus fire is possible. No other weapon system can focus all damage output to on single target regardless as quickly and easily as lrms. This is due to being just as effective when firing usng another's LOS (spotting) as using one's own LOS to fire. This coupled with the extreme durability potential of ECM lights allows for spotting even in fortified locations that should mean death for spotters, is causing a lot of issues. There should be a penalty to lock-on time and accuracy for firing without LOS to the target which with Tag or narc on the target will bring it back up to/beyond regular LOS levels without modules/tag. This makes it so every mech on the team isn't a free spotter, only those that dedicate a hardpoint to spotting will be optimum.

Target locks that disappear before giving detailed information should not be affected by things like target decay module and should fade within 1-2 seconds or just have it a function of time spotted with a cap. Glancing target aquisitions where a target is spotted for less thna a second should not be enough for a volley of missiles to hit.

Then change he missile arc so that a good general rule to deciding what cover is good enough for lrms is not being able to bring the torso weapon reticle over the cover. This: https://onedrive.liv...nt=photo%2c.jpg
is not an acceptable missile arc from a location that is roughly on the same plane as I was. The arc should be gradual instead of sharp at the beginning and end.

I would also like to finally remove the ECM invisibilty cloak with possibly an added bonus to the decreased targeting information time and lock-on speeds that ECM has to compensate.

But the important thing is to try putting these in one at a time to see how much is needed so that things are not overnerfed. Single lrm launchers should be viable but lrm focus fire should not mean instant death for any assault not within 100m of lrm-proof cover.

So, you aren't reading some threads because "they are old"... has LRMs changed that much? Not really. The largest change to effect how you use them was the arc change. The speed change did not effect how I used them, it just made them hit a little (by 5-10%) more often.

My stats, which I believe I posted in this thread (if not, I can repost them here) say otherwise to everyone's "LRMs are OP". They weight more on my mechs, and deal less damage per match. They also, for tonnage dedicated to them, are underperformed ton for ton my other weapons (which I only shoot at 270m and under for the test mech). My direct fire weapons caused almost twice the damage per ton per match as my LRMs did. Twice.

Considering the match I saw, I can tell you LRMs do require their own skill set to use. If you aren't aware of your surroundings, it's easier for an LRM mech to focus in on their target (keeping the reticule forever inside that red square, no flinching away to redirect incoming damage) that they fail to notice the red triangles to the left or right of them, or even behind them. I've seen many people shoot the targets within 180m with their LRMs, wasting ammo and producing overheating amounts of heat, instead of either using their other weapons, or in a lack of them, shooting the LRMs at targets farther away that can be damaged by them.

I'm gonna guess that you haven't used LRMs for very long. Have you ever tried to get a lock on an ECM shielded mech...? Even with TAG, it can still be hard to manage, as it takes a long time to get a full lock. (Of if you have what happens to me, the game will bleep like you have a lock, and then you need to wait an additional 5-10 seconds before the lock is given to you.)

Don't forget, LRMs deal splash damage. They may have "1000+ damage!", but that damage is splashed all over their targets. Do consider that when discussing them.

Also, recall that LRMs have travel times. I've been stuck in many situations where I could get a lock, shoot, but I'd be wasting my ammo if I did as they press into cover soon after I get the lock. But, they got to shoot their entire AC/PPC/Gauss payload into me, nearly killing me and I can't even retaliate. I've seen many people waste tons of ammo, standing still, shooting such hopeless targets. Same goes for targets inside tunnels or with a roof over their heads. I've seen plenty of ammo uselessly explode continually on such things.

Then, there are also spots in the map that, if you are in, you can't even shoot any LRMs at all, as they all hit the ceiling uselessly, leaving you with no/less weapon systems.

And another point, try playing the (C) catapult. I did to try and get "Less Green, More Mean" title. I dropped it after several matches of heavy ECM, where my BAP cut through one ECM, but the second one stuffed me completely still, preventing me from doing any damage.

Not to mention AMS... which I've had 3 systems eat through my ALRM20 salvo, leaving nothing to touch my target... Then you have to find a new target, or reposition to have less AMS in the way (a concern no other weapon needs to worry about). Most people continue to shoot, wasting LRMs to the AMS feeding machine.

Shall we also mention light mechs? Got to learn to deal with them... Most people go with "shoot the closest", even with LRMs. With other weapons, this instinct works fairly well. With LRMs, normally leads to waste and uselessness.


As I've pointed out to other people, LRMs actually end up helping the enemy with their focus fire. If all you can see is a single Spotter, that spotter is going to be focused on more from instinct. Indirect fired LRMs present fewer targets to a coordinated team. This means that the LRM team tends to get focused fired a lot easier, making people drop faster.


Also, PUGs. Random. I don't know if I'd be dropped with another "missile boat", and if I am, will they stay 180m away from me? Will they actually realize (situational awareness again) that I could use their LRM support when I'm in trouble? Will the enemy be smart and face hug me so friendly LRMs that might be coming in hits me instead of him?
From what I've seen from PUGing, which I do very often, most people don't pay that much attention. When I see people getting shot in the back and not even turning around to see what is shooting them... and they die from it... yeah. I once (only once did I do this) had a mech on top of me I couldn't handle alone, and I even typed in team chat "Help Atlas. Behind you!" and was promptly ignored. I ended up having to brush a laser across their back to try and get their attention, doing little/no damage, and was still ignored. After I died, the mech I was fighting went after him, and then killed him because he still didn't even bother to look back. (And I died trying to protect him too.)


Anyway... LRMs do require skill to use well. Anyone can pick them up and use them, but to truly be effective with them requires a lot of skill. I mean, have you ever tried to blind (Dumb) fire LRMs at a target yourself? I have. It isn't easy. (But oh, is it so nice when you can. No warning and damage to them for standing still counting on their ECM...)

(I could go on...)

Lyoto Machida, on 03 April 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Get rid of indirect fire unless the target is TAG'd/NARC'd/UAV'd. Or give us 250m/s LRMs with low arc and make the LRMs target bones like the SSRMS...indirect fire would be at 120m/s. Make it so that Artemis doesn't actually give bonuses to indirect fire (which it shoudn't).

LRM whiners will still find a way to complain though.

Okay... so explain to me why my missiles will turn on the brakes when fired indirectly? Explain to me why this would happen.

And don't forget that LRMs did not get double (or triple) range as other weapons did...

(I read that the Artemis bonuses were removed for indirect fire some time back, unless that got undone or something.)

wanderer, on 03 April 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Note that a popular myth on the boards here is that a 'Mech in TT cannot do anything while spotting.

This is incorrect. A 'Mech doing anything else while spotting simply adds a +1 modifier to hit in tabletop instead. You want to tack on a small penalty to lock-on time for IDF mode, be my guest..

I could agree with that to some extent.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Tesunie, on 03 April 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

So, you aren't reading some threads because "they are old"... has LRMs changed that much? Not really. The largest change to effect how you use them was the arc change. The speed change did not effect how I used them, it just made them hit a little (by 5-10%) more often.

My stats, which I believe I posted in this thread (if not, I can repost them here) say otherwise to everyone's "LRMs are OP". They weight more on my mechs, and deal less damage per match. They also, for tonnage dedicated to them, are underperformed ton for ton my other weapons (which I only shoot at 270m and under for the test mech). My direct fire weapons caused almost twice the damage per ton per match as my LRMs did. Twice.

Considering the match I saw, I can tell you LRMs do require their own skill set to use. If you aren't aware of your surroundings, it's easier for an LRM mech to focus in on their target (keeping the reticule forever inside that red square, no flinching away to redirect incoming damage) that they fail to notice the red triangles to the left or right of them, or even behind them. I've seen many people shoot the targets within 180m with their LRMs, wasting ammo and producing overheating amounts of heat, instead of either using their other weapons, or in a lack of them, shooting the LRMs at targets farther away that can be damaged by them.

I'm gonna guess that you haven't used LRMs for very long. Have you ever tried to get a lock on an ECM shielded mech...? Even with TAG, it can still be hard to manage, as it takes a long time to get a full lock. (Of if you have what happens to me, the game will bleep like you have a lock, and then you need to wait an additional 5-10 seconds before the lock is given to you.)

Don't forget, LRMs deal splash damage. They may have "1000+ damage!", but that damage is splashed all over their targets. Do consider that when discussing them.

Also, recall that LRMs have travel times. I've been stuck in many situations where I could get a lock, shoot, but I'd be wasting my ammo if I did as they press into cover soon after I get the lock. But, they got to shoot their entire AC/PPC/Gauss payload into me, nearly killing me and I can't even retaliate. I've seen many people waste tons of ammo, standing still, shooting such hopeless targets. Same goes for targets inside tunnels or with a roof over their heads. I've seen plenty of ammo uselessly explode continually on such things.

Then, there are also spots in the map that, if you are in, you can't even shoot any LRMs at all, as they all hit the ceiling uselessly, leaving you with no/less weapon systems.

And another point, try playing the (C) catapult. I did to try and get "Less Green, More Mean" title. I dropped it after several matches of heavy ECM, where my BAP cut through one ECM, but the second one stuffed me completely still, preventing me from doing any damage.

Not to mention AMS... which I've had 3 systems eat through my ALRM20 salvo, leaving nothing to touch my target... Then you have to find a new target, or reposition to have less AMS in the way (a concern no other weapon needs to worry about). Most people continue to shoot, wasting LRMs to the AMS feeding machine.

Shall we also mention light mechs? Got to learn to deal with them... Most people go with "shoot the closest", even with LRMs. With other weapons, this instinct works fairly well. With LRMs, normally leads to waste and uselessness.


As I've pointed out to other people, LRMs actually end up helping the enemy with their focus fire. If all you can see is a single Spotter, that spotter is going to be focused on more from instinct. Indirect fired LRMs present fewer targets to a coordinated team. This means that the LRM team tends to get focused fired a lot easier, making people drop faster.


Also, PUGs. Random. I don't know if I'd be dropped with another "missile boat", and if I am, will they stay 180m away from me? Will they actually realize (situational awareness again) that I could use their LRM support when I'm in trouble? Will the enemy be smart and face hug me so friendly LRMs that might be coming in hits me instead of him?
From what I've seen from PUGing, which I do very often, most people don't pay that much attention. When I see people getting shot in the back and not even turning around to see what is shooting them... and they die from it... yeah. I once (only once did I do this) had a mech on top of me I couldn't handle alone, and I even typed in team chat "Help Atlas. Behind you!" and was promptly ignored. I ended up having to brush a laser across their back to try and get their attention, doing little/no damage, and was still ignored. After I died, the mech I was fighting went after him, and then killed him because he still didn't even bother to look back. (And I died trying to protect him too.)


Anyway... LRMs do require skill to use well. Anyone can pick them up and use them, but to truly be effective with them requires a lot of skill. I mean, have you ever tried to blind (Dumb) fire LRMs at a target yourself? I have. It isn't easy. (But oh, is it so nice when you can. No warning and damage to them for standing still counting on their ECM...)

(I could go on...)



Okay... so explain to me why my missiles will turn on the brakes when fired indirectly? Explain to me why this would happen.

And don't forget that LRMs did not get double (or triple) range as other weapons did...

(I read that the Artemis bonuses were removed for indirect fire some time back, unless that got undone or something.)



I could agree with that to some extent.

You seem like you want a weapon system that requires no aiming and no teamwork instead of what lrms have been and should be, effective if the team is setup for it, but unreliable at best if dropping solo. I suppose if the indirect fire was nerfed as people have suggested it could start to be buffed without becoming overly powerful. The main danger in making lrms powerful is that they are designed to be easy to focus fire single targets down and 3+ dedicated lrm boats can decimate any class of mech in seconds and with good spotters/teammates will not be put in any danger while doing so.

Idk what game you have been playing but in PUGs at least, a good ecm spotter will likely still outlive most of his teammates due to the ECM invisibility cloak, lights' incredible speed and hit reg issues at those speeds makes them easily the most durable mechs on the field.

[Tesunie]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 03 April 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

You seem like you want a weapon system that requires no aiming and no teamwork instead of what lrms have been and should be, effective if the team is setup for it, but unreliable at best if dropping solo. I suppose if the indirect fire was nerfed as people have suggested it could start to be buffed without becoming overly powerful. The main danger in making lrms powerful is that they are designed to be easy to focus fire single targets down and 3+ dedicated lrm boats can decimate any class of mech in seconds and with good spotters/teammates will not be put in any danger while doing so.

Idk what game you have been playing but in PUGs at least, a good ecm spotter will likely still outlive most of his teammates due to the ECM invisibility cloak, lights' incredible speed and hit reg issues at those speeds makes them easily the most durable mechs on the field.

Though I can agree with LRMs causing a compounded issue as more become used on the battlefield in an indirect fire system, however I don't think one can call them skill-less either. It can take a lot of work to guide those missiles (which I can't direct into a specific injured point on a mech for the record, like a weak side torso or someone's leg), and all the while I can be very vulnerable. I still feel that they require skill to use well and properly. I know personally I use them within 500m and closer, preferably within 270m and 180m whenever possible to work with my closer range weapons.

Honestly, LRMs act more like guided MRMs in this game right now, as you really can't use them at long range. If you want to use them at long range, you either need a reliable partner (a two mech combo with your partner set up to aid the LRMs), and/or you need to know how to approach the enemy, and when to fire or not fire.

I can say I'm not asking for LRMs to be the best weapon, but they should be able to run in small numbers and still be effective for their tonnage, instead of near useless, but shouldn't be over bearing when boated either. A lot of suggested fixes I've been reading on the forums either make no sense, or would make LRMs so weak as to make them not even worth using. (I've heard suggestions to make LRMs move 10% faster than their intended target, so that slower mechs could dodge them better. Why? What reason would LRMs change speed based on their target's speed? I've heard suggestions to make them the same they use to be, if not even slower. Why? Before hand lights could almost outrun the LRMs, and most times an Atlas could dodge them by walking to the side a little bit. Etc.) Where they sit now (and before the slightly lowered movement) I don't think was bad. Direct Fired weapons still tend to out preform LRMs.

Now, I'm not saying that LRMs can't be changed. However, I wouldn't mind people looking into other options besides just and only LRM speed. I should still be able to hit things with LRMs. We can change flight path, spread, artemis could be diminished, Adv Target Decay could be reduced, TAG and NARC could be altered slightly. (Something I would like to see NARC do is permit a lock on like TAG, so that targets with NARC would still benefit from ECM, but would be able to be targeted as though they didn't. Would make lock on times longer on them, and would still provide some ECM bonuses.)

My solution to ECM spotters is easy. If they want to stay at range and TAG, I'll hide from them using terrain. If they approach to brawl and lock/spot, I'll shoot and try to kill them. I have med lasers and SSRMs on my build, as well as BAP for a reason. I also try to stay with friends.

Honestly, I've been having more problems with ECM and people who are "afraid of LRMs" to move or do anything than I have had for problems with LRMs. Sure, they are annoying, but they tend to strip my armor, not kill me. Sometimes they even take an arm off if I don't find cover fast enough.

As far as lights being more durable, I have a low ping. I seem to be able to hit them most times, but I too have had hit reg problems with them. However, the hit reg problems I have with lights I've also seen with all other mechs, just I see it more with lights. (I've even had SSRM damage not register on the mech, but end of match I've only saw one mech (sometimes) and I've done 300+ damage to a single light mech. Very confusing when that happens.)


I find the most effective LRM mechs are those that are helping to press the front lines, shooting their LRMs from 300m away or closer even. I've been having great results with my balanced Griffin 3M build, with an ALRM20, 3 SSRM2s, BAP, 2 med lasers. Very flexible performance and I tend to aim to get fairly close to the enemy when possible.

(If this post is a bit rambly, I'm sorry. It's late, I should be in bed, and I don't know well enough to go to bed. So, if I stopped making sense, forgive me.)

PS: I don't think you want me to get started on ECM...

[CrashieJ]

What I don't like is the fact that these missiles can turn on a dime horizontally.

if they toned down the turning radius and forced players to think about positioning and leading missiles to compensate (at the risk of breaking lock) we'd see more missiles boats moving around to take out targets instead of playing "Turret MKII" all the time.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lyoto Machida, on 03 April 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

I have no issues with indirect fire...some people on here feel very strongly that LRMs take no skill whatsover however. All I'm trying to do is placate those people so that they have nothing to cry about in terms of LRMs (but most likely still will).

Those people will continue to complain till the game is reduced to.
Launch
Victory
Win screen
You own the universe!

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Those people will continue to complain till the game is reduced to.
Launch
Victory
Win screen
You own the universe!

And free mechbay!

[Joseph Mallan]

I have a mechbay for each of my Mechs(4)... and 3 more for unlocking. Do I need more

[Ngamok]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

Those people will continue to complain till the game is reduced to.
Launch
Victory
Win screen
You own the universe!

Yes please !

[Almond Brown]

Cimarb, on 02 April 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

stuff

Put a roof over the direct-fire group, and the indirect-fire group will not even be able to do damage, or put a low wall between the two groups where you can see/target, but not shoot directly, and the same is true in reverse.

So in effect, what you propose is that given the proper use of Cover, both Direct and In-Direct fire platforms can be negated or at least have there effectiveness reduced. Close?

[Almond Brown]

Ngamok, on 03 April 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Yea, the 175 m/s should have stayed for Direct Fire where the carrier has LOS on the mechs he/she is shooting at. Using a Spotter for Indirect Fire? Enjoy your 120 m/s

And what "logical" Technical reason would account for why, despite that the target is designated, the same way by both means, as far as the shooter is concerned, would one flight fly slower than the other? Totally nonsensical.

[AlmightyAeng]

Tetsunie, Tw1stedMonkey...

Learn the power of

Quote

Snip

, or a

Spoiler

With point-by-point recaps

.

Learn the tools. Love the tools. Lol.

[El Bandito]

Almond Brown, on 04 April 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

And what "logical" Technical reason would account for why, despite that the target is designated, the same way by both means, as far as the shooter is concerned, would one flight fly slower than the other? Totally nonsensical.

Exactly. I'd rather let PGI fiddle with the missile spread when differentiating between direct and indirect fire, than speed.

Joseph Mallan, on 04 April 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

I have a mechbay for each of my Mechs(4)... and 3 more for unlocking. Do I need more

There is a "Gotta catch em all" mentality in plenty of players.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 April 2014 - 08:09 AM.

[Aym]

Ngamok, on 03 April 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Yea, the 175 m/s should have stayed for Direct Fire where the carrier has LOS on the mechs he/she is shooting at. Using a Spotter for Indirect Fire? Enjoy your 120 m/s

I like this idea!

[Lyoto Machida]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

Exactly. I'd rather let PGI fiddle with the missile spread when differentiating between direct and indirect fire, than speed.



There is a "Gotta catch em all" mentality in plenty of players.

What's the point of just playing with 4 mechbays? To practice my shooting skills over and over and let the c-bills pile up?

I have 64 mechs at the moment...there are guys with more than that out there. As much as I love BT/MW, if it wasn't for buying new mechs and BS'ing with my unitmates on TS, I wouldn't be playing this game anymore

What exactly do people with only 4 mechbays and no comms do and how do they stay entertained enough to stay around for a long time and spend money in the game? This game is fun, but it's not THAT fun (especially if you're not a BT fan already).

[Cimarb]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 April 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

What's the point of just playing with 4 mechbays? To practice my shooting skills over and over and let the c-bills pile up?

I have 64 mechs at the moment...there are guys with more than that out there. As much as I love BT/MW, if it wasn't for buying new mechs and BS'ing with my unitmates on TS, I wouldn't be playing this game anymore

What exactly do people with only 4 mechbays and no comms do and how do they stay entertained enough to stay around for a long time and spend money in the game? This game is fun, but it's not THAT fun (especially if you're not a BT fan already).

Me and Joe are probably opposites on this. I don't do voice comms, but have fun mastering new mechs. Based on his statement, he has his four preferred mechs and just enjoys using them in a group atmosphere. Both are very valid methods of having fun for people that enjoy it that way, as is having lots of mechs and lots of friends.

Even though I have somewhere around 30 mechs or so, I only actually use about 5-6 of them on a regular basis, with the rest just being less optimal chassis variants I haven't sold yet. There isn't a single chassis that I use more than one variant of regularly, for example - they all have a "best one".