910 replies to this topic

[Jon Gotham]

No, I'm not saying that Cimarb. (I was being snarky back to a silly and snarky comment)

What I'm saying is lrms were made more effective and due to their nature the exploitative side of people's nature came to the fore and they started using these weapons en masse. The use of these weapons en masse has a detrimental effect on the fluidity of the gameplay.
It also penalizes certain weight classes more than others-which I'll admit may not be a bad thing.
Plus using direct fire, unguided weapons is a different thing to using guided weapons that you don't have to aim. If I go cover to cover for 5 secs vs 2 guys with ppcs, I'll expect half of the hits to miss-this is not the case with the lrms as you need much more massive cover to achieve the same job. The factor in mech speeds and you get a sharp rise in camping and long range sniping and general hesitation to even try to move and flank etc.
Now granted, you can rush down lrm boats when they have minimal support....when they have friends however it's a different prospect as the sheer brute weight of 5 lrm boats can grind a mech to a smear in seconds.

Now, me in my Raven has 0 issues with lrms, I'm small quick and have ecm. Now if I was in an atlas...I'd have issues.The troublle is the cover needed for evading direct fire can be much smaller and is much more common on maps. Lrms can go over his cover very easily and still smack you. then considering the amount of boating at the minute going on your mech can be made match-ineffective in one giant salvo with 0 risk being taken to achieve this.
I use lrms myself. I used them before buff with 0 issues. I use them now. I can see the huge leap in effectiveness.So have the FOTM brigade.
I spent a match a few days ago in my Cent A, waiting to play. for 12+ mins. We simply could not move at all. 12 mins of sitting there doing nothing. I was actually reading the forums at the time. Why?
Because they had a ridiculous amount of lrms backed up by assaults camping near their base. We had mostly 270m range mechs. We could not approach because of the punishing storm of lrms.
We did win mind, but it was one of the most frustrating and boring games I have ever played.
It's encouraging snipe or quit even more than before.
People are not complaining because they can't or won't adapt. they are complaining because the game is less fun if you don't boat lrms. It does not impact certain gameplay styles, it RUINS them.

What we need is not a nerf to lrms, but a way to nerf teams boating lrm boats. A team should not be having 6 mechs with lrm 40 on it. Guided indirect fire is more effective than direct fire in actual practice, so it stands to reason there should be less of it-for gameplay balance reasons if nothing else.

[Cimarb]

The weekend before last was a bit lopsided, I will give you that, but it is that way every single time a weapon system is changed. LRM usage has dropped off drastically since then, and is starting to level back off just a bit higher than it was pre-buff, which is a good thing, since they were a novelty item only then.

An LRM boat can avoid some enemy cover, but when a smart player is going from behind one building to another, there is no time for an LRM boat to get a lock, and even if they do, the LRMs will be wasted on the side of the next building. If I was using direct fire weapons instead, though, I would be able to at LEAST get a couple slugs in them before they made it to the destination.

I'm not saying you don't know how to play - I don't know you and can't say that - but I am telling you that I have a good amount of experience with all of the weapon systems and do not think LRMs are an issue at all right now, even when teams stack them. Try an LRM boat out a week or so - get used to it - and then come back and re-read this thread.

[Jon Gotham]

I use lrms myself my friend. We'll have to agree to disagree here I think. My own use of them tells a different story:) I've had some very good results with my lrms^^

But I will say this, me an lrm player can see there is a problem....and I benefit from the buffs......I just say what I see.
Hopefully it'll drop back to normal soon. I'm hoping the "nerf" to lrms was slight enough to not harm them but enough to get the FOTM brigade off them.

We'll see eh?

[Cimarb]

kamiko kross, on 31 March 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

I use lrms myself my friend. We'll have to agree to disagree here I think. My own use of them tells a different story:) I've had some very good results with my lrms^^

But I will say this, me an lrm player can see there is a problem....and I benefit from the buffs......I just say what I see.
Hopefully it'll drop back to normal soon. I'm hoping the "nerf" to lrms was slight enough to not harm them but enough to get the FOTM brigade off them.

We'll see eh?

<o

I am the same way with ACs. I use them quite a bit, but think they need to be brought down a notch or three to make them inline with the other weapon systems. The difference I see is that ACs are powerful WITHOUT teamwork, whereas LRMs are only powerful when multiple people on the same team use them together.

[Tesunie]

kamiko kross, on 31 March 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

People do adapt, they cower a lot more are scared to move a lot more,


Most of all though, I'm bored of seeing people going through frankly amazing displays of logic gymnastics to deny there is a problem currently that is affecting the gameplay. I personally love "don't go into the open then!!!" Sometimes you have to move from cover to cover to get to the enemy, y'know in the case of 270m brawler mechs. Then when you break cover for 5 secs you are locked and swarmed by lrm 200+ and most mechs simply are not fast enough to evade...so to "adapt" to that you have to stay behind cover the entire match sacrificing initiative to the enemy team.
And, to those who say "I'm doing fine" good for you! Just because you can, does not mean the majority can...does it?


People making snarky silly comments at the "whiners" are NOT helping the issue. As long as the FOTM brigade see lrms as easy way to get kills and cbills we will have the lrmswarm issue. And, it Is an issue.

I wouldn't call "Hide till they find me" adapting either. You just need to approach more carefully and observe the battlefield more. I don't hide and wait for death to come find me. I'm always moving, even when I was playing the (C) Stalker on a friends account (to get them the 5 win free mechbay).

I'm bored of the amazing logic some (not all of you) of the LRM complainers use to make their point. "I can't get within 180m of an LRM boat before they kill me!" "I can't poke my nose out of cover for less than a second before LRMs kill me!" False and False. On both accounts. If you poke your nose out for less than a second and get hit, it's probably not LRMs, as LRMs would barely even have a lock on you, let alone their missiles getting to you. The other one I've proven can and does happen, getting within 180m of LRM mechs. Maybe not everyone can do it, but I'd say someone needs to learn how to then, as it is completely possible.

The "whiners" often times make snarky silly complaints, and they get snarky silly comments back.

kamiko kross, on 31 March 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

What I'm saying is lrms were made more effective and due to their nature the exploitative side of people's nature came to the fore and they started using these weapons en masse. The use of these weapons en masse has a detrimental effect on the fluidity of the gameplay.

I use lrms myself. I used them before buff with 0 issues. I use them now. I can see the huge leap in effectiveness.So have the FOTM brigade.

Because they had a ridiculous amount of lrms backed up by assaults camping near their base. We had mostly 270m range mechs. We could not approach because of the punishing storm of lrms.

We did win mind, but it was one of the most frustrating and boring games I have ever played.
It's encouraging snipe or quit even more than before.
People are not complaining because they can't or won't adapt. they are complaining because the game is less fun if you don't boat lrms. It does not impact certain gameplay styles, it RUINS them.

What we need is not a nerf to lrms, but a way to nerf teams boating lrm boats. A team should not be having 6 mechs with lrm 40 on it. Guided indirect fire is more effective than direct fire in actual practice, so it stands to reason there should be less of it-for gameplay balance reasons if nothing else.

So, I'm seeing you as having an issue with LRMs as in, not the system but the number of them being taken currently. Don't know how that can be stopped overall. However, I can still say ton for ton, LRMs are one of the worst weapons you can place on your mech for damage. It is not as effective overall compared to the direct fire weapons.

I use them as well, always have. Before the patch, I had many times people would just casually stroll into cover after I shot my LRMs and none of them would hit. Jump snipers where just to be ignored till I could flank them and use my other weapons on them most likely, or someone spotted them from behind. For the most part, people just stayed on the move and ignored my LRMs, dodging them with slight shifting movements from side to side in open cover. Yes, the LRM buff improved their effectiveness, but they are not "killing mechs in seconds" like I've been hearing described here. It actually still takes longer for the "LRM swarm" to kill a target, with more ammo to do so, than it would have been for PPCs/AC/Gauss/Lasers to do the job. Only think LRMs has going for it is indirect fire. (My suggestion, nerf indirect fire with having more spread if you can't see the target. TAG would reduce the spread back to a more direct fire spread in these cases. I don't feel that the speed is overly the problem. We could even look into the arc of fire, making it so lower terrain could be more effective again.)

Sounds like someone (or a whole team) could use to run more balanced builds, and bring at least something for the range combat. Would have kept the team as a whole more effective in that case.

Sounds like people need to learn more and varied skills then. Isn't this described as a thinking mans shooter? And I've also heard so many people decry that they want this game skill based...

Already coming in. 3/3/3/3 coming in. This means that probably only 3-6 mechs can carry that many LRMs without sacrificing too much to do so. 3 Heavies and 3 Assaults. Maybe 3 med mechs geared for LRMs as well...
Beyond that, what other suggestions would you have to make it so teams can't get "too many LRMs". And if we are doing that, I want to make it so teams can't get "too many AC5/ppc/gauss combos, and too many dual Gauss/AC20 mechs"...

[Almond Brown]

OneEyed Jack, on 29 November 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Perhaps my reading comprehension is failing, here.

stuff

You're wrong. There are reasons to alpha, despite GH. Not always, but if you think the answer is "just chain fire," then you know little about the proper use of missiles.

Not wrong, just stating that unless you have a 100% guarantee of Hit success, which is unlikely versus a competent opponent, 50 missiles fired in a missed Alpha is the worse waste, versus a chain set that may increase that once "zero%" to something above that given that those flights will provide more air time for allies to lock onto for you.

Victor Morson, on 29 November 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

I have zero problems endorsing joke builds.

I do have problems with bringing joke builds as evidence to a conversation like this.

Chain fired LRMs are AMS fodder.

You can run up to 60 missiles on the right Catapult WITHOUT Ghost Heat (20x20x5x5x5x5), but you are better off with 20x20x5x5+TAG+Artemis any day of the week.

Chain firing them is still an awful idea if you encounter AMS though. You can ONLY afford to do it on unprotected targets.

Also ALL of those configs are better than 6xLRM5. That config is really terrible and it's popularity is baffling. All noise and thunder and no results.

So in other words, there is a time and place for everything? That sound about right?

[Ngamok]

ColonelMetus, on 28 March 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

did 1400 damage in champion stalker, was really easy too (i bought one with mech cash)


LRM is out of controll still, should got like 130 meter per second max

LOL

Lyoto Machida, on 30 March 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Well...some people like to lie when it fits their agendas. Also, some people are only good at playing one style in this game so when the game changes, they can't adapt.

The whole "putting your eggs in one basket" thing...

Just like in life, it's better to be well rounded so you can be ready for as many situations as possible. If you choose to be only good at one thing, you better damn well be elite at it.

We have one guy in Windbourne who uses LRMs exclusively because that is the play style he can do because of a physical disability. He can brawl and snipe don't get me wrong, but he cannot keep it going all night like that so he LRMs to help.

[Sean von Steinike]

Randalf Yorgen, on 07 November 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Wait, there are missile boats out there again.... heehee, time to dust off my LIGHT MECH and go bag me a few LURMS. I hear there is a new market for their Hides opening up in the north.

Now which light to take.... well any of the Jenners, or the ECM Spider is always a good one... of course there is the AC/20 Raven, not super fast but it's small and with just one or two shots will punch through the back of an enemy mech. SRM CDO is also a good option.... ohhh I don't know, maybe I'll just rotate through them all and see what one I like the best.

HEY.... I guess this is proof that this is a TEAM GAME because when one lance is pinned down a second lance is getting behind the baddies and making them go BOOM! (go get em Sarah)

BJ-1 is pretty spry and has an ac-20, and almost feels like running a light.

[Cimarb]

Tesunie, on 31 March 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Only think LRMs has going for it is indirect fire. (My suggestion, nerf indirect fire with having more spread if you can't see the target. TAG would reduce the spread back to a more direct fire spread in these cases. I don't feel that the speed is overly the problem.

I think that would be a great idea. I know it already does this a little bit, but it really should be more pronounced. An indirect "lob" without a spotter should be a really, really wide spread that literally covers more than the whole width of the target.

[Kali Rinpoche]

Multiple LRM boats, and scouting lights make movement nearly impossible in some PuGs. Narc+tag defeats ECM and allows untouchable boats to destroy opponents without being reached themselves. If your using cover etc, (which you should be using) and get stalled/trapped its over. This can be the case b/f the LRM changes, but with speed and move/fire you could fight you way out. Now with 2 waves minimum of 100-150 lrms hitting you per target exposure, you get chewed to pieces and finished off by the undamaged PPC/AC5 vultures.
Some problems:
-With no VoIP in game, you can't communicate with your team.
-bring the wrong build, anything medium/heavy without ecm cover and no counter lrms on your side =toast.
-the setup of some maps. Alpine's highest point located so close to one groups spawn as an example.
-the all assault heavy matches of late. (3/3/3/3 will change this)
-mech diversity b/c of this has reached rock bottom.

I have 4 primary boat builds: Stalker M, HGN 733, Kintaro GB/20, and a Jag. Before tweak, they were played as support mechs to soften up mechs, pin down movement, and finish up chewed up mechs. Post Tweak I have actually taken the Artemis off of 3 of those mech b/c frankly it was too easy to chew up stupid folks. Even with Artemis off, I easily do 700-900 damage rounds in my HGN with 3 LRM 10s and 2 LL+tag. Pop-tarting since the gauss fix, hasn't bothered me b/c you could flank them in lights and allow your force to move up. This isn't the case now with LRMs. They have become the best area denial weapon with little skill required. (b/f you flame, 5 matches in an lrm boat, and you learn when to fire and not fire you missiles.)

What I see as wrong:
The ability to indirect (spotted) fire LRMS at mechs you don't have LoS with or are not Tagged/Narc'ed.
The arch of missiles flights being a bit too steep.
A slightly too fast speed boost.
No weight or BV based matchmaking. (soon to hopefully be fixed by 3/3/3/3.)
LRM damage doing too much pinpoint damage instead of dispersing over mech.

Edited by Kali Rinpoche, 31 March 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[JP Josh]

you really should stop complaining if i had my way lrm's will be dealing 2 dmg a shot and have less arc.

/ i liked that week in beta........ so easy to dodge/counter (ams group)

[Lyoto Machida]

kamiko kross, on 31 March 2014 - 03:46 AM, said:

Most of all though, I'm bored of seeing people going through frankly amazing displays of logic gymnastics to deny there is a problem currently that is affecting the gameplay. I personally love "don't go into the open then!!!" Sometimes you have to move from cover to cover to get to the enemy, y'know in the case of 270m brawler mechs. Then when you break cover for 5 secs you are locked and swarmed by lrm 200+ and most mechs simply are not fast enough to evade...so to "adapt" to that you have to stay behind cover the entire match sacrificing initiative to the enemy team.
And, to those who say "I'm doing fine" good for you! Just because you can, does not mean the majority can...does it?

There's a guy in my unit that can pull off 800+ damage in a Victor frequently. I'm not asking people to do that...what they need to do is learn how to use cover and maneuver sensibly. You don't need twitch skills for that but you do have to use your head.

If someone can survive in a Dragon with no AMS and 2LPL/2MG in this current environment, it can be done in any mech. Again, people just need to use their heads...and no, even a fast Dragon cannot evade LRMs with speed:



There were at least 3 missile boats on the other team (the 2 champion Stalkers and the Orion VA...wasn't sure about the BLR-1S's loadout) during this game on Tourmaline. If what these whiners were saying about LRMs were true, you wouldn't see games like this (and this was in a solo PUG drop). It's obviously possible, so people need to step their game up. I realize that Tourmaline isn't exactly Alpine or Caustic but there is cover on EVERY level...you just have to know how to use it.

Ngamok, on 31 March 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

LOL





We have one guy in Windbourne who uses LRMs exclusively because that is the play style he can do because of a physical disability. He can brawl and snipe don't get me wrong, but he cannot keep it going all night like that so he LRMs to help.

I completely understand his situation but I doubt the guys coming on the forums with complaints about LRMs have physical disabilities. More likely, they are fully capable adults (and teens) that don't like change and don't like the challenge of adapting.

[Jon Gotham]

Tesunie, on 31 March 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Already coming in. 3/3/3/3 coming in. This means that probably only 3-6 mechs can carry that many LRMs without sacrificing too much to do so. 3 Heavies and 3 Assaults. Maybe 3 med mechs geared for LRMs as well...
Beyond that, what other suggestions would you have to make it so teams can't get "too many LRMs". And if we are doing that, I want to make it so teams can't get "too many AC5/ppc/gauss combos, and too many dual Gauss/AC20 mechs"...

This is a actually a good idea:) I was discussing something similar over TS a few days ago. 4 direct fire meta boaters are easier to deal with-but still unfair.

Lyoto Machida, on 31 March 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

More likely, they are fully capable adults (and teens) that don't like change and don't like the challenge of adapting.

I don't feel it's the challenge of adapting. I have adapted. I'm more successful in game than ever before after stats reset. I have high win rates and kdr on nearly every mech-especially on my ECM mechs.
However, it's what I have had to do to get that success that has made the game less fun. I run ECM mechs exclusively. My "challenge" was to ruin as many lrm boater's efforts as possible, it was to allow my teams to move as freely as possible.
I have had much success with it-but I'm BORED, so very BORED with running the same mechs over and over.
Past 2 days I have seen less lrms, and I am grateful for it. I'm hoping the slight nerf made the fotm boaters try something else.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

how can it be fotm if every time i come back here people are still complaining about it?

the last time i came to these forums it was 2013, and lrm's were still wrecking ass. At this point the only real logic is to stack one type of weapon and go with it, lrm's and gauss seem to be like 2 really good choices.


also if you want to know who started the trend of chainsawing, sorry guys! But at least my legacy will live forever whether i play or not

but you want to know the champion to this date? dual gauss. if you have any sort of aiming coordination, dual gauss still wins every fight. speaking of which is there an ecm mech i can dual gauss?

Edited by Battlecruiser, 01 April 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Battlecruiser, on 01 April 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

how can it be fotm if every time i come back here people are still complaining about it?

the last time i came to these forums it was 2013, and lrm's were still wrecking ass. At this point the only real logic is to stack one type of weapon and go with it, lrm's and gauss seem to be like 2 really good choices.


also if you want to know who started the trend of chainsawing, sorry guys! But at least my legacy will live forever whether i play or not

but you want to know the champion to this date? dual gauss. if you have any sort of aiming coordination, dual gauss still wins every fight. speaking of which is there an ecm mech i can dual gauss?

Umm...I think you've missed a bit since you've been gone. Just sayin'...

[Rex Budman]

Lyoto Machida, on 01 April 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

Umm...I think you've missed a bit since you've been gone. Just sayin'...

How can you still tout the cover argument when clearly it only works if you are a quick mech? And what kind of cover is allowed when LRM is being spammed when you are a short range brawler? Where are the short range mechs these days? Oh, They're all gone replaced with long range Poptarts.

How is it fair to find the good cover, pop out to shoot, cop a lock on from a few hundred meters away, move back in cover and still get hit?

You keep boasting this wonderful play style you have and how superior you are to other players when in fact you are not seeing the entire picture regarding the balance and viability of other roles.

Your opinion and advice on this matter is just garbage.

/end

[Tesunie]

Rex Budman, on 01 April 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

How can you still tout the cover argument when clearly it only works if you are a quick mech? And what kind of cover is allowed when LRM is being spammed when you are a short range brawler? Where are the short range mechs these days? Oh, They're all gone replaced with long range Poptarts.

How is it fair to find the good cover, pop out to shoot, cop a lock on from a few hundred meters away, move back in cover and still get hit?

You keep boasting this wonderful play style you have and how superior you are to other players when in fact you are not seeing the entire picture regarding the balance and viability of other roles.

Your opinion and advice on this matter is just garbage.

/end

Griffin 3M: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c4acc2e2546a287
Is actually a good close range mech.

Shadowhawk 2D2: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0ef2b36422b21b2
Makes for a decent sniper, but seems to preform much better in a brawl.

Battlemaster 1G: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a354333be74bbac
Is made for close range, with some ERLLs to fight at range.


Close range mechs are still in use. I'd suggest, for the most part, that one find a focused balance between ranges. It's okay to focus on range, but I'd recommend one to also bring some close in weapons. Same in reverse.
(More detailed reasoning of my statement here: http://mwomercs.com/...92#entry3225192 )

[Rex Budman]

Tesunie, on 01 April 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

Griffin 3M: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c4acc2e2546a287
Is actually a good close range mech.

Shadowhawk 2D2: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0ef2b36422b21b2
Makes for a decent sniper, but seems to preform much better in a brawl.

Battlemaster 1G: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a354333be74bbac
Is made for close range, with some ERLLs to fight at range.


Close range mechs are still in use. I'd suggest, for the most part, that one find a focused balance between ranges. It's okay to focus on range, but I'd recommend one to also bring some close in weapons. Same in reverse.
(More detailed reasoning of my statement here: http://mwomercs.com/...92#entry3225192 )

Hybrid mechs are not my forte` - I prefer class roles. DPS/Support etc.

Also it's hard to post videos of particular matches as every match is different and a lot of us were unlucky enough to cop the hardcore spam. I just hit a match now that was LRM lacking, and it felt like old times.

[Tesunie]

Rex Budman, on 01 April 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Hybrid mechs are not my forte` - I prefer class roles. DPS/Support etc.

Also it's hard to post videos of particular matches as every match is different and a lot of us were unlucky enough to cop the hardcore spam. I just hit a match now that was LRM lacking, and it felt like old times.

Most of my matches have been sparse on the LRMs since the last patch. I only had one heavy LRM match, and my team had the heavy LRMs. We lost due to everyone standing still, with no spotters, and got picked apart one by one... (And a lot of them shot LRMs within 180m, into buildings, and bridges... and...)

Addon: Hybrid mechs aren't bad if you can find the right balance. I'd suggest one gives it a try. The key is to create enough of a focused edge to be effective in the role you wish, while maintaining just a little for when you can't do what your intended role is.

[Lyoto Machida]

Rex Budman, on 01 April 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

How can you still tout the cover argument when clearly it only works if you are a quick mech? And what kind of cover is allowed when LRM is being spammed when you are a short range brawler? Where are the short range mechs these days? Oh, They're all gone replaced with long range Poptarts.

How is it fair to find the good cover, pop out to shoot, cop a lock on from a few hundred meters away, move back in cover and still get hit?

You keep boasting this wonderful play style you have and how superior you are to other players when in fact you are not seeing the entire picture regarding the balance and viability of other roles.

Your opinion and advice on this matter is just garbage.

/end