118 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 14 November 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

The hidden problem here is hit-loss due to command overload. It happens with MGs, SRMs and LRMs, also. The Ls and PLs strike with a vast amount of miniscule individual hits over time, and in a perfect engine/network setup, this would be fine. But as proven by the amount of hit-non-registration and lag/packet-loss present with MGs, LRMs and SRMs also when fired en masse, this is a deeply seeded coding issue.

The only way to resolve it for now is to reduce the number of rounds and increase their effectiveness. In a raw example, MGs might be changed to have 1/4 their current ROF and be given x4 damage.

No weapons are in more dire a need of this far-less-overwhelming (to the servers and clients) method currently employed than Lasers and MGs, in that order. Honestly, the current system is great in a romanic, "what-we-intended" sort of way, but it plainly, simply, and observably does not work.

Please change it so that lasers and other weapons that use a masse of individual shots can return to being effective (in any way) compared to ACs and Streaks, which deal their damage (mostly) correctly. ACs and Streaks stand alone in this regard.

This is another possible issue but more difficult for me to test with the limited methods available.

[Abivard]

Lykaon,

It seems to me when I leg lights that I aim ahead of it to start with then I track it back and forth over the lights legs, sweeping.

This seems to be effective which would indicate that it is checking for hits more than just at outset of beam duration.

[GoatHILL]

Mawai, on 10 November 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

Just to add 2 cents ...

My experience lately is that there may be a hit detection issue with lasers. There appears to be hit detection issues with the other weapon systems .. it isn't surprising that lasers suffer the same way. However, the problem is harder to diagnose with lasers since instead of hit or miss you get part of the beam duration hitting and other parts missing ... so it almost always does some damage to some part of the mech. It is easy to write this off as aiming issues or the fact that DOT weapons can hit multiple components ... but I would say that at least a portion of the issue is hit detection.

With ballistic weapons ... they either hit or miss ... so a AC's easily core mechs when they hit. Lasers on the other hand ... part of the duration hits and part misses.

PGI should be able to resolve this issue with a properly set up diagnostic client and server. It isn't a simple problem but it should be possible to identify situations where the weapons should hit (in a test environment) and then trace back why they did not. This should be done with scripted clients in a controlled test environment ... start from stationary and move up to a circle strafing scenario. Unfortunately, it isn't clear that PGI has the available manpower to properly diagnose and debug this issue in a timely fashion (maybe they should consider outside contractors to look into specific bugs ).

I think this is a real issue and the nature of energy weapons (heat and slow RoF) makes it much more noticeable for laser users. I'd like to see lasers get a slight buff and the number of LLs bumped to 4 before ghost heat kicks in. Another thing I've noticed is I run around with mechs full of ammo but only rarely have ammo explode a small and I mean a very small tweek upward on ammo explosions might be in order.

[Lord de Seis]

Oni Ralas, on 09 November 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Because we've come full circle. By eliminating LRM spam and cutting down on laser mechanics (ghost heat + DoT) there is nothing left but dakka.

Perfect example. Got in a sparing match with someone (that I know) in a friendly 1v1 while everyone was off playing cap war. Same tonnage, he was in a dual AC20 boat, me w/ 2x AC10 and 4mlas. On paper, same damage, and overall same basic RoF when you factor in beam length.

Both unload CT and just shoot each other pretty much point blank. The result? My ct goes red after 2 shots. After my *death* his is still peppered yellow. Convergence is still off w/ las, and the instant vs. DoT style of dakka/las makes all the difference in the world.


Lasers are not horrible, but there is a *reason* you see so much dakka right now. Like I've said a million times, if you notice something being played disproportionately more than usual, it's likely broken.

The problem is different things are used disproportionately every two weeks when there is a patch and it has been that way for 9 months.

[Greyboots]

Here's what's up with lasers.

1) Lasers aren't beginner weapons.

The first big issue is the XP structure. You can buy 2 skills directly related to heat dissipation: Cool Run (heat dissipation +7.5%) and Heat Containment (+10% heat threshold). Upon completing Elite training these 2 skills are DOUBLED in effectiveness to +15% and +20% respectively.

This means that a mech's ability to power lasers is NOT at it's full effectiveness until the Mech is trained to Elite status and gets the 2x all basic skills bonus.

2) There is no "energy weapon" module.

* LRMs and Streak SSRMs both benefit greatly from from the Target Decay module.
* AC's, because of their extended ranges, benefit to a higher degree from both the Sensor Range module and the Advanced Zoom.
* Laser weapons have no corresponding module that benefits them more than the other weapon types.

Again, this means that Energy Weapons are again not a beginner weapon. They benefit more from consumables (coolant flush) than the other weapon types. However, this is an ongoing cost rather than "buy it once and it is yours". Those struggling to purchase and train new mechs are unable to take advantage of these consumables.

3) Ammo is a bonus, not a drawback.

Heat is universal and regenerating "ammo". Every weapon uses it to be able to fire itself. This controls the amount of DPS you have in any situation. Once you run out of heat you can no longer fire. Ammunition is a special ability that allows a weapon to bypass this regenerating ammo. Yes, ammo is a special ability.

Lasers and ACs are balanced on different principles. They straddle the line between Ballistics and LRMs. Laser weapons are light compared to their AC counterparts AND take fewer slots BUT use a universal ammo. The ideal is that you use one set at range and then a secondary, cooler, higher DPS set at closer ranges.

The highest DPS for weight weapons in MWO are

• Medium Lasers (1 ton for 1.25 DPS).
  
• Small Pulse Lasers (1 ton for 1.24 DPS)
  
• Small Lasers (.5 ton for 1 DPS)
  
• Machine Guns (.5 tons for 1 DPS).

When you upgrade to larger weapons you are trading DPS and lower heat generation for range, you are not getitng "more powerful". This means that if you are trying to play in an AC's playground you are going to come off second best.


4) DHS are most certainly mandatory.

As an example, the AWS 8Q.

Buy one.
Buy double heat sinks.
Now buy a STD 300 motor with some of the weight (because an XL is going to give you more weight back than you can actually use sensibly).
Now fill up as many slots as you can with more double heat sinks.

Your heat efficiency goes well up (to 1.35ish from memory).
You gain 12.1 km/h
you have .5 tons left over.

There is "mandatory" as in "You need them to play" and there's "mandatory" as in "you need them to be competitive".

In this case, DHS are mandatory with an XL motor being what's "optional". You could go with a

The above isn't universal of course, it's more of a "worst case", but you'd be surprised how often this scenario plays itself out.

Energy weapons simply require a lot more work to get to a functional state if you want to rely on them as anything except "backup" weapons. This is largely due to certain, I believe ill-conceived, decisions made in the structure of MWO. The singular issue of energy weapons not being fully effective in terms of DPS until a mech is trained to Elite is a huge one to begin with.

* How many new players are commenting, not understanding that this is the case?
* Energy Weapons are the staple of MWO and many of the cheaper mechs, and therefore affordable for new players, rely heavily on them. Is it really a wise idea to saddle new players with this?
* Is commenting on energy weapons actually unbiased? Perhaps, because of the previous point, there's a lot of new players commenting when they don't understand that it gets better later on?
* Are we thinking energy weapons are underpowered just as we're always dying to ACs and Missiles, simply because energy weapons are rarer than they deserve to be?



BJ-3 - 45 Tons - XL225 engine -1 x ER PPC, 3 x Medium Lasers, 4 x Jump Jets - Fully trained (Master).

Match Score 90
Damage 541
181,404 cBills (with premium bonus).
1434 XP (with premium bonus).

I have my ups and downs of course, it's clear that I'm only an average player from the video, but this isn't an uncommon result for me.

Laser weapons actually aren't that bad IMO. Then again, I am willing to take them as they are. To accept the flaws provided I can find a counterbalancing benefit. I know that many others won't be nearly as happy with this state of affairs.

So, from where I sit, the question becomes one of what the community is looking for from lasers. Do they want them to be going toe to to with AC's or will they be happy with lasers offering a different aspect to MWO?

[Urdasein]

I am trying things in mechlab...

I dont play mechs with max dps under 14 and sustained fire under 20s.

With pure laser boats, i can't reach my requirements...

And thats is pure theorycrafting: mechlab doesn't take in account ghostheat, bad hit detection (aka ghosthit =) and laser damage spraying over 1 second.

You know what surprise me ? Still seeing blue and green ray on battlefield.

[Greyboots]

loupgaroupoilu, on 17 November 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

I am trying things in mechlab...

I dont play mechs with max dps under 14 and sustained fire under 20s.

With pure laser boats, i can't reach my requirements...

And thats is pure theorycrafting: mechlab doesn't take in account ghostheat, bad hit detection (aka ghosthit =) and laser damage spraying over 1 second.

You know what surprise me ? Still seeing blue and green ray on battlefield.

It's clear that an all-laser mech isn't going to suit your requirements and, presumably, your playstyle. Which is fair enough.

I was wondering, however, why it surprises you to see beam weapons used on the battlefield. Especially considering the Medium Laser is one of the highest DPS weapons on offer. Do you not consider spike/burst damage viable in MWO or was there some other reason?

And no, I'm not having a go at you, just looking for answers.

[Abivard]

Greyboots....
Your post is very informative, however it should be in the new players help area.

It doesn't pertain to discussion here about the current bugs lasers are experiencing in game.
Which seems to be some combination of hit registration and command overload.

Edited by Abivard, 17 November 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Kilrein]

Perhaps a solution to this is to reduce the beam duration on each laser weapon by 10% to increase the damage density of the beam. There will still be spread but the spread effect will be lessened as initial location hit will take a higher portion of the damage and there will be less spread opportunity due to the increase damage density.

Just my $.02

[Greyboots]

Abivard, on 17 November 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Greyboots....
Your post is very informative, however it should be in the new players help area.

It doesn't pertain to discussion here about the current bugs lasers are experiencing in game.
Which seems to be some combination of hit registration and command overload.

This isn't "snapping back", just explaining my view!

The Devs have admitted that there'***** registration issues so that's a known quantity. That seems to be a case of "let's keep discussing it in the hoped the devs will get on it faster". I'm not against that in the slightest, forum talk helps Devs build a priority list, but these issues aren't the only issues that lasers suffer from.

Also, ACs suffer from the same hit registration issues. I've hit stationary Medium mechs, from 100m while stationary myself, with the full force from a pair of AC5's and an AC10 only to have it take no damage what so ever. I'm not the only one saying so either. That means to me that this is a universal issue and not confined to lasers.

If you head back to the start of this thread you'll also see that the issues oyu mentioned aren't the only ones that have been mentioned here.

But still... Imagine what would have happened if I had started yet another "what's up with lasers" thread to put a slightly different spin on things? As they say, you can't please all of the people all of the time .

P.S: Some of this is in the new player section.

[Blurry]

a great back up for when you run out of ammo.

[Aiden Skye]

Screenshake, smoke, Pinpoint damage, rapid fire and zero heat. This wouldn't all be as much of a problem vs missile and energy weapons in this ballistic meta if most maps didn't play out like...



Ammo isn't even an issue with just 12 mechs and nothing else to destroy so factor that outta here. HSR issues aside I agree with previous suggestions to make AC's fire multiple shots like in other MW games. And / or reduce beam duration.

Edited by War Khan, 19 November 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Riptor]

I blame full customisation for this.

Since the devs cant control what weapons and how many of them you take with you in a given loadout they constantly will have overpowered or overnerfed guns and the playerbase will just flock to the next FOTM weapon.

First it was LRMs and Streaks... then it was PPCs + gauss for months and months and now its ACs.

Guess wich weapon gourp will be nerfed next?

Without customisation you would have stock loadouts that arent min maxed to death and actually really require you to choose your mechs wisely instead of reducing a mech to hiboxes + tonnage

[Lykaon]

Greyboots, on 17 November 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

Here's what's up with lasers.

1) Lasers aren't beginner weapons.

My experiences have not been related to any of the details you mention it is simply a matter of what I see are not the results.

I see 6 medium lasers from my Battlemaster hit a specific body location on my target.I retain the beam on target keeping the damage focused onto the desired location.

One would expect that 6 lasers each doing 5 damage each over the duration and being held on target would inflict 30 damage to that targeted location.

Well what I get is 3 salvos of 6 lasers each doing 5 damage each with an expected damage of 90 failing to breach armor on a Jagermech's side torso that should have give or take 40 armor.

My ping is on average under 50.The issue is with either HSR and widely disparent pings or packet loss that does not seem to effect ballistics adversley.

There nothing more I can do but stop using large numbers of medium lasers I have swapped weapons on my BLR 4G for a PPC and 2 AC 5 now I can kill my targets.

[Kazairl]

After spending 3mins shooting at a moving victor at 300m with Large Pulse Lasers I have to agree that lasers just don't do any damage anymore. When the highest dps beam weapon isn't as effective as a machine gun something is REALLY broken.

[dario03]

I like the beam duration, it makes the beam weapons different. What I would prefer would be to actually increase beam duration but improve everything else, maybe also make the beam drop off damage so that most damage is done early in the duration. Something like increase beam duration by 20% but make 75% of damage happen in the first 50% of the beam. Would also slightly increase damage, lower heat, and lower recycle time.

[Ngamok]

Kazairl, on 20 November 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

After spending 3mins shooting at a moving victor at 300m with Large Pulse Lasers I have to agree that lasers just don't do any damage anymore. When the highest dps beam weapon isn't as effective as a machine gun something is REALLY broken.

300m is the effective range of LPLs to do it's max damage, once you pass that at 301 it does less. I use LPLs and they are fine. I leg lights with them with the shorter beam duration.

[Lord de Seis]

I remember when Pulse Lasers were good, I barely see people using them these days...

Large Pulse Lasers are the only ones worth carrying, Medium Pulses used to be very effective at 180m.

Edited by Lord de Seis, 20 November 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Urdasein]

Greyboots, on 17 November 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

It's clear that an all-laser mech isn't going to suit your requirements and, presumably, your playstyle. Which is fair enough.

I was wondering, however, why it surprises you to see beam weapons used on the battlefield. Especially considering the Medium Laser is one of the highest DPS weapons on offer. Do you not consider spike/burst damage viable in MWO or was there some other reason?

And no, I'm not having a go at you, just looking for answers.

Ok.

I tried to play other mechs than dakka Jags.

I played with pure laser boats: BJ1X (2 x 4 Mlas) and and Stalker (2 x 2ER Llas, 24 DHS). Yes my builds are stupid simple. Anyway. No, no PPC, i lnow it's a good weapon, but i suck with it.

So

The 4 ER Llaser stalker VS 3AC2 - 3MG Jagger

3 AC2 =
- 18 tons of guns, 10 tons of ammo (i shoot all the time =), 5 tons coolant (15 DHS) = 33 tons = 25 slots + XL engine
- 6 per salvo, 11.54dps sustained while 25 seconds, sustainable DPS 6
- 720 optimal range, 2100 max range, bullet speed 2000
- Need the advanced zoom module to take advantage of extreme range... Even with that, hitting moving things over 1000m is a challenging, must aim front of the moving target. Not easy, i often miss.

The 3 Mgs =
- 2.5 tons of weapons and ammo. 3 Slits No heat. 3 Dps on armor more (how ?) on structure.
- I if i need to use this weapon, i am in trouble and will probably die since the Jag is fragile in XL engine... BUT! The ennemy mech will suffer 14.54 dps (9 sustained dps) wich is pretty high. So these Mgs are defense weapons more than something else. It's a perfect addiction to AC2 since it doesn't heat.

4 ERLas =
- 20 Tons of guns, 14 tons of coolant (24DHS) = 34 Tons = 44 slots + std engine
- can't shoot 4 Laser at the same time because of ghost heat. Must shoot 2 by 2 with 0.5s beetween each shot...
- 18 x 2 per salvo. 8.47 total dps sustained while 24 seconds, 4.83 sustainable dps.
- 675 optimal range, 1313 max range. Past the optimal, the dps drop pretty fast.
- instant hit, damage spread over 1 second

The Jag is fagile, has XL engine and can go at 76.8 kph with average acceleration.
The Stalker is far more tough, has Std engine and can go at 62.8 kph with poor acceleration.
All two have High mounted weapons, wich is my favored. Can shoot without exposing myself and even shooting above smaller sized teamates.

In theory craft 3AC2 has overall better numbers:
far more dps, slight more range, far less crit slots consumption, same weight, same sustained fire time. I have enough ammo to fire like crazy on every rabbit in a game. In the opposite hand, Llaser don't have ammo.

In game i noticed the following things with the 4ERlas stalker:

I do less damage (average 300 VS 500) and kill (average 1 VS 4 and more) with ERLlaser than AC2, no surprise BUT !!!
-> With AC2 at long/medium range, i often miss and spray damage all over the ennemy mech. At close, i miss & spray less but i dont put all the buillet on the location i want. My AC2 kills are often "ninja" because the higher ROF so it often gives me the killing blow on targets that have been cored by teamates.
-> I suffer less retun fire since hiting the cockit blind the ennemy with smoke and firing with ac2 is discrete. Not as stealth as gauss (even gauss is detectable) but more stealth than blue beams pointing from the shooter.

-> With dual double Llaser at long range, i don't miss, even if the target is moving. I think i spray more. It is so easy to hit that I can even troll popshooters, hiting them in flight and moving back before they can aim me. Things i can't do on a reliable rate with artillery. A fine counter against PPC/JJ tactics. At medium / close, i can shoot precisely the location i want. Most of the kill i've done are intentional kills, targeting a cored shoulder on a heavy mech, wich oiften carry XL engines = death.
To reduce return fire, i have a targeting laser that incite teamates to fire LRMs on my target. I expect my target to fall back when hearing "incoming missile". I also use the TAG to spot DDC and intel my team (and earn a little more Cbills =). Yes i use the tag with a macro, so it's "on" all the time. I could put a medium laser or a bigger engine, but nah, 3 kph VS trolling ability, you know...

So, conclusion ? I don't know... Stalker is far more hard to kill, slower but can precisely hit things at reasonable range. It's a pain to small and fast targets. Popshooters don't like it either. I can also hit the location i want.
The Jags with 3AC2 is more effective on slow moving / front moving targets. The 3Ac2 are also more effective at close range because of higher DPS and blinding ability... But i dont brawl in Jag. I know you can put 3Ac2 on many mechs, but you can't have the additionnal 3 Mg's... Its up to you.

In a real conclusion, i would say both are fun to play and fill the same role well (all range direct suppresive fire) with significative pro-cons differences. One have more dps, spray and is not able to deal with pop shooter - fast things. The other one have {Scrap} dps, maybe even more spray (but can also do precise hit) and is able to deal with any target.


NEXT

the AC40 JAG VS 8Mlas BJ1X. Diff weap, diff tonnage but same role again.

Edited by loupgaroupoilu, 20 November 2013 - 11:59 AM.