193 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Just last night I annihilated a battlemaster LRM boat, all he had other than those LRMs was 4 medium lasers, and I was within the minimum range. My AC20 gave him many hugs. Fiery fiery hugs.

[Metalsand]

Nightcrept, on 18 November 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

There is also no other weapon in the game with as many counters and drawbacks as lrms. And the absolutley most glaringly huge drawback is the example you just used. You need a team designed for lrms to use lrms effectively.

Lrms in comparison to any other weapon of the equivilent is last in terms of combat effectiveness.

If you play terribly or the enemy has a cohesive team, sure.

But the former would be your fault, and the second is a one in 15 chance. lol

[Burke IV]

I dont think that stacking as many as you can on a mech and then lobbing them is the correct use anyway. I think PGI did something in the code to make them land not quite so hard when you spam them. Its just a feeling with no maths backing it up.


Edit: ah... now im thinking about it. Destructable sensor towers. Isnt that original ?

Edited by Burke IV, 18 November 2013 - 10:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Metalsand, on 18 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm running x2 ER LLasers, with a TAG, a Standard 200, and x2 LRM20's. It goes at 45km/h, and I don't have speed boost. Works great, best build I've made so far. I have more screenshots of other victories, although the majority of my screenshots are only around 550 damage done, though i think a few of them have 8 assists if that counts...?

As fire support you will get less kills, but higher Assists as a norm. Which makes Fire Support the best rewarded position in MW:O.

[Mercules]

ColonelMetus, on 17 November 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

ac 30/40 illya/jager requires you to actually aim your weapons, LRMS do auto hits and usually ignore cover

So does an LRM. You have to hold your reticle over the targeted mech the whole time and in addition have to make sure you have a good flight patch to the target. Often you are facing an ECM mech and need to hold a TAG beam on the enemy mech for the time it takes your missiles to close the gap. Against BAD opponents with good teammates it is a LOT easier but you rarely find that in a PUG.

Teamwork makes LRMs function and it is basically the ONLY weapon system that requires teamwork and unskilled opponents to be effective. That is right, your skill the LRMs is compounded with interest by the incompetence of your opponent. So if you are getting demolished by LRMs... I wouldn't admit it in public but go back and learn what you can do better.

ColonelMetus, on 17 November 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

"incomming missile"

oh well ok let me just go and stand next to this hill that is about 50% taller then my battle master.

"missile comes right over the hill then makes a hard 90 degree turn and hits my CT"

WTF mite?

Simple. There was a spotter on your side of the hill. That meant the LRM pilot could let the lock drop and then recover it so that the missiles regained their tracking and turned to hit you. Your team and you were at fault for not finding the spotter and running them off or killing them. Again, Teamwork is overpowered.

[Nightcrept]

Metalsand, on 18 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm running x2 ER LLasers, with a TAG, a Standard 200, and x2 LRM20's. It goes at 45km/h, and I don't have speed boost. Works great, best build I've made so far. I have more screenshots of other victories, although the majority of my screenshots are only around 550 damage done, though i think a few of them have 8 assists if that counts...?


May I refer you to my post where I did 826 damage in a x2 LRM20 boat? It's not about the missiles, it's about their ability to negate cover. LRM's are OP in certain maps such as Canyon which are covered in wide open areas.

I'm running your mech now to see the average heat usage.

The reason lrm damage is relevant is that on avg lrms hit around 30% of the time. A good to great player can get up to 35 - 40% hit ratios. 1 ton of lrms is 180 missile with a max potential of 180 points of combat damage but a in game transition of between 54-72 ponts of dmg.

So if you're dealing 826 points of damage woth lrms you're going to either be having an extemely lucky game (which we all have) , you're dealing a good ammount of damage with your other weapons or you're lying.

By my calculations you need around 13tons of ammo to get around the numbers you're talking about.


In comparison All the other top teir weapons would give you a higher damage potential and average then the lrms.

[Nightcrept]

Metalsand, on 18 November 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

If you play terribly or the enemy has a cohesive team, sure.

But the former would be your fault, and the second is a one in 15 chance. lol

That's not true . That shows your lack of understanding of the debated game mechanic.


I play pug matches exclusively. In them you get no designated spotters and or teammates.

Lrm's are countered by ams, ecm, have a min range of 180 and a hard max range of 1000. Have the longest to target time of any weapon and gives you a warning signal when fired. And to make matters worse they have the lowest dmg to weight potential of any other weapon.

[Metalsand]

Nightcrept, on 18 November 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

I'm running your mech now to see the average heat usage.

The reason lrm damage is relevant is that on avg lrms hit around 30% of the time. A good to great player can get up to 35 - 40% hit ratios. 1 ton of lrms is 180 missile with a max potential of 180 points of combat damage but a in game transition of between 54-72 ponts of dmg.

So if you're dealing 826 points of damage woth lrms you're going to either be having an extemely lucky game (which we all have) , you're dealing a good ammount of damage with your other weapons or you're lying.

By my calculations you need around 13tons of ammo to get around the numbers you're talking about.


In comparison All the other top teir weapons would give you a higher damage potential and average then the lrms.

Actually, I ran about 1500 LRM missiles, and since it's on the Heavy metal, I had plenty of weight capacity. It averages about 300-500 depending on map. For instance, unless I immediately get scout rushed, I never get under 450 damage on Canyon. If you REALLY want, I can put it into Smurfy's for you. The heat balances out in the end, one of my shoulders is even just all heatsinks lol.

[Dimento Graven]

Nightcrept, on 18 November 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

There is also no other weapon in the game with as many counters and drawbacks as lrms. And the absolutley most glaringly huge drawback is the example you just used. You need a team designed for lrms to use lrms effectively.

Lrms in comparison to any other weapon of the equivilent is last in terms of combat effectiveness.

If you don't want to play as a team to be as affective as possible, you're playing the wrong game.

[Metalsand]

Dimento Graven, on 18 November 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

If you don't want to play as a team to be as affective as possible, you're playing the wrong game.

He means that you need a team that can keep tags open, but more importantly, a team that doesn't rush in and die or abandon the LRM boat.

[Nightcrept]

Dimento Graven, on 18 November 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

If you don't want to play as a team to be as affective as possible, you're playing the wrong game.

Nonsense.


This game allows for individual players and must to survive. But regardless of our opinions on that matter it wasn't my point.

My point was that you need a team to use lrms effectively. A team. As in more then one mech. If your success is dependent on a set scenerio invilving more then one mech then you lose the ability to adapt to fluid situations.

So if you're running a specialized team of two with a spotter and lrm boater and one of them is taken out the other is near impotent.


That isn't true of the other weapons systems.

[Dimento Graven]

Nightcrept, on 18 November 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Nonsense.

This game allows for individual players and must to survive. But regardless of our opinions on that matter it wasn't my point.

My point was that you need a team to use lrms effectively. A team. As in more then one mech. If your success is dependent on a set scenerio invilving more then one mech then you lose the ability to adapt to fluid situations.

So if you're running a specialized team of two with a spotter and lrm boater and one of them is taken out the other is near impotent.


That isn't true of the other weapons systems.

I'm sorry but you're wrong.

#1: This is a TEAM/ROLES based game. There is no "individual" mode. No, 1v1, no PvE, this is 12 'mechs vs 12 'mechs. Period. Maybe LATER there will be different modes of play that allow for INDIVIDUAL drops, BUT don't be so stupid as to equate the ability to drop as an individual sans pre-made team as an indication that this game support 'solo play'. You have dropped with 11 other people who have a NOT unreasonable expectation that your participation will be in conjunction with the over all goal of everyone winning the match.

There truly is no room for some bozo go 'Rambo' and try and kill 12 enemies all by himself. We need no Rambozo's.

#2. Yes, my point too was that to use missiles at their peak efficacy, you need to cooperate with your team. See point 1. You've dropped with 11 other individuals it's not unreasonable for you to ask them to hold their locks, press R to target, and so on. Just like it's not unreasonable for them to assume you won't dumb fire missiles into their backs at the first opportunity.

#3. Without a spotter missiles can be nearly as effective. The "nearly as" portion relates to your having to spot, and maintain locks on your own. That means you have to take some risk, not just sit back behind a hill sipping your coffee, pulling the trigger and racking up kills.

Sorry, if you want a game that's "easy" and supports solo play, may I suggest Microsoft Solitaire, it comes with every copy of Windows and while aces might be OP, there's only 4 of them in each deck...

[Nightcrept]

Dimento Graven, on 18 November 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

I'm sorry but you're wrong.

#1: This is a TEAM/ROLES based game. There is no "individual" mode. No, 1v1, no PvE, this is 12 'mechs vs 12 'mechs. Period. Maybe LATER there will be different modes of play that allow for INDIVIDUAL drops, BUT don't be so stupid as to equate the ability to drop as an individual sans pre-made team as an indication that this game support 'solo play'. You have dropped with 11 other people who have a NOT unreasonable expectation that your participation will be in conjunction with the over all goal of everyone winning the match.

There truly is no room for some bozo go 'Rambo' and try and kill 12 enemies all by himself. We need no Rambozo's.

#2. Yes, my point too was that to use missiles at their peak efficacy, you need to cooperate with your team. See point 1. You've dropped with 11 other individuals it's not unreasonable for you to ask them to hold their locks, press R to target, and so on. Just like it's not unreasonable for them to assume you won't dumb fire missiles into their backs at the first opportunity.

#3. Without a spotter missiles can be nearly as effective. The "nearly as" portion relates to your having to spot, and maintain locks on your own. That means you have to take some risk, not just sit back behind a hill sipping your coffee, pulling the trigger and racking up kills.

Sorry, if you want a game that's "easy" and supports solo play, may I suggest Microsoft Solitaire, it comes with every copy of Windows and while aces might be OP, there's only 4 of them in each deck...

Response below.

Edited by Nightcrept, 18 November 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Nightcrept]

Edited.

Dimento Graven, on 18 November 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

"That isn't true of the other weapons systems.I'm sorry but you're wrong.

#1: This is a TEAM/ROLES based game. There is no "individual" mode. No, 1v1, no PvE, this is 12 'mechs vs 12 'mechs. Period. Maybe LATER there will be different modes of play that allow for INDIVIDUAL drops, BUT don't be so stupid as to equate the ability to drop as an individual sans pre-made team as an indication that this game support 'solo play'. You have dropped with 11 other people who have a NOT unreasonable expectation that your participation will be in conjunction with the over all goal of everyone winning the match.

There truly is no room for some bozo go 'Rambo' and try and kill 12 enemies all by himself. We need no Rambozo's."

Wow.

You didn't go to school in a very educated area did you?



If they let a player drop without being in a pre-made then they do allow for *gasp* individual players. Who *gasp* can play however they like without listening to anyone.

You're not very smart if you got PvE or single player out of what I said.

This game does support individual play if it lets me drop and do what I want in game. You can call that whatever you want...lol.

Dimento Graven, on 18 November 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

"
#2. Yes, my point too was that to use missiles at their peak efficacy, you need to cooperate with your team. See point 1. You've dropped with 11 other individuals it's not unreasonable for you to ask them to hold their locks, press R to target, and so on. Just like it's not unreasonable for them to assume you won't dumb fire missiles into their backs at the first opportunity."

Seriously?

You mean most players don't press r and target enemy mechs? Unless of course you're asking them to ignore their targets and just spot for you in which case I would consider you a liability for taking other mechs out of combat.

Dimento Graven, on 18 November 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

"#3. Without a spotter missiles can be nearly as effective. The "nearly as" portion relates to your having to spot, and maintain locks on your own. That means you have to take some risk, not just sit back behind a hill sipping your coffee, pulling the trigger and racking up kills."

BS. I do this regularly and in most cases it doesn't end well unless your team is willing to sacrifice themselves to keep the lights off you.



Point three is counter to the entire thread about lrms being easy mode.

All in all you're proving my point for me and I don't think you realize it.

Edited by Nightcrept, 18 November 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[KharnZor]

Metalsand, on 18 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

I'm running x2 ER LLasers, with a TAG, a Standard 200, and x2 LRM20's. It goes at 45km/h, and I don't have speed boost. Works great, best build I've made so far. I have more screenshots of other victories, although the majority of my screenshots are only around 550 damage done, though i think a few of them have 8 assists if that counts...?


May I refer you to my post where I did 826 damage in a x2 LRM20 boat? It's not about the missiles, it's about their ability to negate cover. LRM's are OP in certain maps such as Canyon which are covered in wide open areas.

That is a bad fit that would only work in a low elo bracket. I'm sorry but that's just how it is.
As for LRMs being OP on certain maps well, that's also false.Unless you pilot a slow mech (such as yours) and aren't paying attention then you are doomed like anyone else who is stupid enough to be caught out in the open

[Nightcrept]

Metalsand, on 18 November 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

He means that you need a team that can keep tags open, but more importantly, a team that doesn't rush in and die or abandon the LRM boat.

Exactly. Thank you for understanding.

I've been running your set-up and I am getting near 350-400 on good games and it maybe possible to get a higher score under the right situation. But about half of my damage is coming from the erLL's. And due to the slow speeds of the mech and drawbacks of both the erLL's and Especially the lrms I would go for a more proven set-up.

Your set-up is going to be very situational and give you very very extreme fluctuations in output.


Try any of these. THere is a 2xlrm-15 version in there somewhere that's pretty good if you like lrms.
http://www.mechspecs...php?board=105.0

Edited by Nightcrept, 18 November 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[KharnZor]

Nightcrept, on 18 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

Exactly. Thank you for understanding.

I've been running your set-up and I am getting near 350-400 on good games and it maybe possible to get a higher score under the right situation. But about half of my damage is coming from the erLL's. And due to the slow speeds of the mech and drawbacks of both the erLL's and Especially the lrms I would go for a more proven set-up.

Your set-up is going to be very situational and give you very very extreme fluctuations in output.

Its not even situational.

[Dimento Graven]

Nightcrept, on 18 November 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Wow.

You didn't go to school in a very educated area did you?

Actually there's a large majority of people reading this thread thinking the same of you right now, I can assure you.

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If they let a player drop without being in a pre-made then they do allow for *gasp* individual players. Who *gasp* can play however they like without listening to anyone.

From the PGI description of the game they have created: http://mwomercs.com/game

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MechWarrior Online puts MechWarriors into team-based and tactical battlefield where the victors swim in the spoils of war and are rewarded with the almighty C-Bill (in-game currency).

Each team has up to 12 players and the two teams are pitted in combat in an enclosed battlefield. Communication is key, be it in-game chat, integrated C3, or a third party VOIP solution, keeping in constant communication with your teammates will drastically increase your team’s chances of success.

So if you're playing 'however you like without listening to anyone' you're playing counter to the intent of the very core design of this game.

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You're not very smart if you got PvE or single player out of what I said.

Yes, THIS is what you said:

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If your success is dependent on a set scenerio invilving more then one mech then you lose the ability to adapt to fluid situations.

So if you're running a specialized team of two with a spotter and lrm boater and one of them is taken out the other is near impotent.

It seems you want to take a weapon that has been designed from the get go as a TEAM OPTIMIZED weapon and have it re-worked so that it can become 'equally effective' when used on a "solo" basis.

The only way for that to NOT be OP is to change LRMs and to make sure those people using LRM's drop in solo, 1v1 matches, or some form of PvE. Otherwise, when two or more people DO cooperate to use the 'new' soloable LRM's those same LRMs will become over powered.

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Regardless your atempted point is silly at best because if a player is pugging and launching as a lrm boat he cannot reasonably expect other players to give up their roles to spot for him all the time. He becomes a liability.

If you're pugging, using an LRM boat is a foolish choice. You are not picking a 'mech suitable for your situation, please choose another, your team and ultimately you yourself, will thank you on your good decision.

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Your point two is even more ridiculous. You're asking players to give up targeting their enemies and spot for you.

It's ridiculous to ask players to press R when targeting, and to hold those targets? I can tell right now we're on two different ELO plains.

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Point three is counter to the entire thread about lrms being easy mode.

All in all you're proving my point for me and I don't think you realize it.

I'm not sure you even understand your point, but be that as it may, you seem to believe that there is a problem with missiles as they currently are, and you are wrong. Let me elaborate my point:

They can be very difficult to use against a savvy team, when you play as an individual.

Against a savvy team, while working with a savvy team of your own, and they can be as effective as any other weapon in the game.

Using missiles against players who don't understand how the missiles work, when you are solo OR as working as a team, they can be ultra devastating just like every other weapon in the game.

MY POINT is, missiles have reached a decent balance point.

I myself hate getting pelted by missiles, because I always feel the guy firing them typically doesn't deserve the points he's going to get, his spotter on the other hand, if he's able to stay out of my sight and keep me targeted, kudos to him, because as soon as find the spotter, I'm going to do my damnedest to make sure he's quickly dead, THEN, I'm going to play peek a boo with the boat until it's dead, UNLESS someone else on his team takes up the spotting slack.

However, unless I'm already seriously damaged, it's going to take the missile boat quite a few salvos to kill me, and I'll be doing my damnedest to make sure as few missiles hit me as possible. However, I also not so concerned with missiles I've bothered equipping AMS on my 'mech. Not many people know how to use them effectively, and not many people know how to scout effectively either.

[Dimento Graven]

Nightcrept, on 18 November 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:

Seriously?

You mean most players don't press r and target enemy mechs? Unless of course you're asking them to ignore their targets and just spot for you in which case I would consider you a liability for taking other mechs out of combat.

Some players do press R when they target, some never do, but the UI has been adjusted so that with no target selected as soon as they have a 'mech under the reticule long enough it'll target that 'mech for them. Most players however, are playing with direct fire weapons and it's not necessary for them to have the 'mech they are actually shooting at 'targeted'. Many is the time I see my team mates firing at enemies, but NOT ONE DAMN diamond in the HUD is outlined indicating target, plenty of empty triangles getting hit though.

But hell, even with LRMs it's not absolutely necessary to 'target' what you're firing at. You CAN dumb fire missiles, they just won't track is all. Sometimes there's great advantage to NOT do so. It doesn't make them 'easy mode', or 'overly difficult' to use either way.

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BS. I do this regularly and in most cases it doesn't end well unless your team is willing to sacrifice themselves to keep the lights off you.

You're not loading weapons that can be used close in, and/or, you're not used to much close in fighting. I've got my 4 LRM, 4 ML stalker that I occasionally use, and I'm able to chase away/kill lights readily enough, however your own team's lights may not be doing their jobs if they're not engaging those same lights. Of course, if you're dropping solo, you're at a disadvantage from the get go because now you have to stop and type, "Hey, come help me out in sector C3, I got commandos crawling up my ***!", instead of being able to just hit your PTT button and call for help.

Even if there were in game PTT, solo puggers are still at a disadvantage because without friends no one has a vested interest in keeping you alive. Especially if you're one of those that wants to go off and not listen to anyone else, perhaps your play style causes your teammates to wish you dead...

[xMEPHISTOx]

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xMEPHISTOx, on 17 November 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:


Any video evidence of these epic endeavors>?

Metalsand, on 18 November 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

Are you kidding me? Lmao, is a screenshot not good enough for you? That's my Heavy Metal, outfitted with x2 LRM20's. If you're saying the above screenshot isn't good enough for you then you're just fishing for a reason to support LRM's.

No...a screenshot that doesn't show what mech your in or the loadout proves absolutely nothing. Video or at the very the least the after action screen is what would be considered evidence that may validate your claim.
And no I do not support LRM's (think there fine where there at not OP or UP) but I do support evidence based on more than hearsay.



Below are examples of proper video/image evidence...





However one who is trying to prove or disprove something should really use video evidence as even the after action screen shot is not sufficient as who is to say what loadout I really had on that 733P.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 18 November 2013 - 02:54 PM.