193 replies to this topic

[Dirkdaring]

I can't wait for clan LRMs with no minimum range, less weight and crit slots comes. Oh man will I have to stock up on popcorn.

[KharnZor]

Dirkdaring, on 13 November 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I can't wait for clan LRMs with no minimum range, less weight and crit slots comes. Oh man will I have to stock up on popcorn.

Rivers of tears.

[Bobdolemite]

ColonelMetus, on 13 November 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

like i said, the problem isnt lrms, its lrm "flooding" and the flooders are going to ruin lrms for all us people that just like to take 1 launcher and call it a day

LRM flooding is a slow "trickle" type of damage. If you die mainly to LRM flooding then you might be doing something wrong. You were either in a place with no cover (where you probably shouldn't have been) or were too slow to do anything about it (which is a legitimate risk of running slow mechs)

I run a CPLT-A1 with 6 LRM 5's and do the flooding thing on a pretty regular basis, people need to stay out in the open for long periods of time, or ignore spotters nearby in order for it to be successful. Good players have ended my game in a FLASH since it lacks any support weapons at all.

But I will admit there is something wrong with LRM's when people have to resort to boating LRM 5 to be useful (due to spread) My assaults that run 15-20 sized launchers do some pretty paltry damage when compared with whats possible from a smaller launcher.

IMO LRM's need some work but its not nerfs but buffs or a rethink that they need.

[Wolfways]

When i read the title i thought this was going to be a joke

Well i suppose it was, just not the way the OP intended...

[Sean von Steinike]

Op made a funny!

[ColonelMetus]

they need to add ECM to more mechs to counter OP lrm

[Metalsand]

Cimarb, on 13 November 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

You must never use LRMs, or understand how they work, or both. To avoid LRMs, you have to move enough to break line of sight, then move a little more to avoid their path after they lose tracking. The missiles are still going to land (less than 1000 meters, of course), but they stop following you once the lock is broken. If you just duck out of line of sight (LOS) and stop, you can't expect the missiles to avoid falling on your stationary mech just because they lost tracking. If you pay attention to the missiles, they actually curve up near the end of their path, so dodging to the left/right is always better than backing up, also. Not sure why I am giving you pointers on avoiding something I enjoy using, but I'm just that type of guy I guess...

Unless you go at least 90 km/h you cannot dodge them. I've learned how to dodge them, you need raised and curved terrain, and you move out of the way right before the descend upon you because the missiles then curve out of the way in a weird unnatural fashion. Even this won't work sometimes if the LRM boat doesn't have Artemis equipped, because the inaccuracy of the missiles works in his advantage. Not to mention that for you to be sighted, someone else is staring at you so you can't exactly stare straight into the sky and avoid the missiles or else they will start shooting you too.

And yeah, I've played LRM boat before with twin LRM15's. While it was a **** build compared to some missile boats, I had no problem hitting people, but again since it was a **** build and I had put 5 med lasers on, I ran out of ammo halfway through the match. Out of 5 volleys, 4 out of 5 were direct and effortless hits.

Again, I like the idea of LRM's but I feel they are not executed well in this case because it turns a round for the non-LRM troops into a "duck into the 25% of cover that can actually save you from the LRM's", and for the LRM boats, it turns into a point and click adventure as long as the enemy does not have smart light mechs that also know where the LRM boat is, can get to the LRM boat, and actually feels like destroying the LRM boat.

Otto Cannon, on 13 November 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

But that's my whole point- you don't need to physically block them, just break LOS for 4 seconds and they stop tracking you and miss whether you're in cover or not. Nobody uses narc and UAVs are not only very expensive but mean you avoided the artillery strike they could have used instead.

To break LOS on the LRM boat though, you have to be a reasonably manuverable/fast mech. The only mechs I have been able to dodge missiles on out of all my mechs are my Hunchbacks that can go 92 km/h, and even then I cannot dodge the missiles reliably. Keep in mind, when you are spotted, it is because an enemy is also looking at you, so you cannot stare at the sky to dodge the missiles while their team slowly comes out of the woodworks and begins to shoot you. It's a lose-lose situation for you, where at best you can survive with no remaining front armor, and at worst, die before the match even starts.

Cimarb, on 12 November 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

AMS are nice counters to LRMs, but ECM is the real OP counter. Until ECM is fixed, LRMs have zero chance of ever being overpowered. I enjoy my missile boats, but if there is even a single ECM in a semi-intelligent enemy group, my score is halved instantly, with zero work on their part, and almost non-existent if they stay grouped the whole time. Point out any other weapon system that is affected like this by a single 1.5 ton piece of equipment... Just silly...

Not ever mech can equip ECM, not only that but typically mechs that equip ECM are lights, which don't stay with the group and run off on their own.

No other weapon system is affected like LRM's from ECM because other weapons require aiming, instead of pointing and clicking, not to mention the missiles that can go above 75% of the map's cover to hit enemies.

Bobdolemite, on 13 November 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

LRM flooding is a slow "trickle" type of damage. If you die mainly to LRM flooding then you might be doing something wrong. You were either in a place with no cover (where you probably shouldn't have been) or were too slow to do anything about it (which is a legitimate risk of running slow mechs)

I run a CPLT-A1 with 6 LRM 5's and do the flooding thing on a pretty regular basis, people need to stay out in the open for long periods of time, or ignore spotters nearby in order for it to be successful. Good players have ended my game in a FLASH since it lacks any support weapons at all.

But I will admit there is something wrong with LRM's when people have to resort to boating LRM 5 to be useful (due to spread) My assaults that run 15-20 sized launchers do some pretty paltry damage when compared with whats possible from a smaller launcher.

IMO LRM's need some work but its not nerfs but buffs or a rethink that they need.

I've gone from cover and seen enemies and backed up immediately, then I see the LRM spam from a single LRM boat descending upon me and it only takes 3 volleys to kill my engine after going through 70 layers of upgraded armor. The total attack lasted about 5 seconds, and you can't even kill a medium mech within 15 seconds unless they make a mistake or they have a bad build with any weapon that you have to aim with.

[Lyoto Machida]

Metalsand, on 13 November 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Unless you go at least 90 km/h you cannot dodge them. I've learned how to dodge them, you need raised and curved terrain, and you move out of the way right before the descend upon you because the missiles then curve out of the way in a weird unnatural fashion. Even this won't work sometimes if the LRM boat doesn't have Artemis equipped, because the inaccuracy of the missiles works in his advantage. Not to mention that for you to be sighted, someone else is staring at you so you can't exactly stare straight into the sky and avoid the missiles or else they will start shooting you too.

And yeah, I've played LRM boat before with twin LRM15's. While it was a **** build compared to some missile boats, I had no problem hitting people, but again since it was a **** build and I had put 5 med lasers on, I ran out of ammo halfway through the match. Out of 5 volleys, 4 out of 5 were direct and effortless hits.

Again, I like the idea of LRM's but I feel they are not executed well in this case because it turns a round for the non-LRM troops into a "duck into the 25% of cover that can actually save you from the LRM's", and for the LRM boats, it turns into a point and click adventure as long as the enemy does not have smart light mechs that also know where the LRM boat is, can get to the LRM boat, and actually feels like destroying the LRM boat.


To break LOS on the LRM boat though, you have to be a reasonably manuverable/fast mech. The only mechs I have been able to dodge missiles on out of all my mechs are my Hunchbacks that can go 92 km/h, and even then I cannot dodge the missiles reliably. Keep in mind, when you are spotted, it is because an enemy is also looking at you, so you cannot stare at the sky to dodge the missiles while their team slowly comes out of the woodworks and begins to shoot you. It's a lose-lose situation for you, where at best you can survive with no remaining front armor, and at worst, die before the match even starts.


Not ever mech can equip ECM, not only that but typically mechs that equip ECM are lights, which don't stay with the group and run off on their own.

No other weapon system is affected like LRM's from ECM because other weapons require aiming, instead of pointing and clicking, not to mention the missiles that can go above 75% of the map's cover to hit enemies.

2 LRM15s is not exactly a boat. Not sure how long you've been playing this game but LRMs are not where they once were. Used to pull 3 kill games in my AWE-8R with 4x15 (Artemis) fairly easily but its a lot tougher with ghost heat and the changes to LRMs themselves.

The fact that you have to take 40-60 tubes (or 5-6 LRM5s) to be somewhat effective with all the counters out there is telling. Try taking a single LRM 15 or something and see how good it is.

Cover isn't that hard to get behind...even for an Atlas. If you can't get behind cover and break locks, you're probably too far from real cover.

[ColonelMetus]

more mechs need ECM

[Metalsand]

Lyoto Machida, on 13 November 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

2 LRM15s is not exactly a boat. Not sure how long you've been playing this game but LRMs are not where they once were. Used to pull 3 kill games in my AWE-8R with 4x15 (Artemis) fairly easily but its a lot tougher with ghost heat and the changes to LRMs themselves.

The fact that you have to take 40-60 tubes (or 5-6 LRM5s) to be somewhat effective with all the counters out there is telling. Try taking a single LRM 15 or something and see how good it is.

Cover isn't that hard to get behind...even for an Atlas. If you can't get behind cover and break locks, you're probably too far from real cover.

I didn't say somewhat effective, I said it worked very well. And holy hell, you mean I could have had twice as many LRM tubes? I thought the max was two 20's? Dear god, now I know why a lot of people play them, I was only playing with 30 total, and I could have been playing with 60...and I don't know what you are talking about regarding cover, maps like Canyon and the Snow city one only have a few areas where you can be safe from LRMs so it becomes either let the enemy cap the points/your base, or avoid missiles...especially with the Atlas, hell I can't even find cover in an Ilya and sometimes even in a Hunchback.

[Otto Cannon]

You absolutely don't need speed to break LOS. Provided you're near cover because you play intelligently (you are doing that, right?) all you do is step behind it when you hear the warning and stroll slowly without re-exposing yourself.

I am no grand master pro at this game and I can do that in a slow Atlas. Know where your nearest cover is, and which direction the missiles are coming from, and you can do it too.

If a spotter gets behind you, that's the fault of your team and you pay the price just like if he caps your base or shoots your back. This is the only time you need to get into high cover to block the missiles until he's taken care of.

[Victor Morson]

KharnZor, on 13 November 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Rivers of tears.

My LRMs Pubbie Tears blot out the sun

[Metalsand]

Otto Cannon, on 13 November 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

You absolutely don't need speed to break LOS. Provided you're near cover because you play intelligently (you are doing that, right?) all you do is step behind it when you hear the warning and stroll slowly without re-exposing yourself.

I am no grand master pro at this game and I can do that in a slow Atlas. Know where your nearest cover is, and which direction the missiles are coming from, and you can do it too.

If a spotter gets behind you, that's the fault of your team and you pay the price just like if he caps your base or shoots your back. This is the only time you need to get into high cover to block the missiles until he's taken care of.

There isn't enough cover to travel cover-to-cover for some maps, especially Canyon. In Canyon, it's either stay under LRM cover or expose yourself for about 10-15 seconds, and if you don't go at least 80km/h, there is a chance that they will have a decent Light that will spot you before you can even get to cover. Plus, because of the limited cover, you have to find cover that your teammates aren't all cowering at.

Plus, you can play an Atlas long range, but a long range Ilya build doesn't work as good as others because you can't go hull/torso down and fire over the ridge. Since your guns are in your arms, unless you are firing only one Gauss, you have to expose most of your body over the ridge. If you try to pop out around corners, you will only have one gun out of three facing the enemy. The only good build I've had for an Ilya is a close-medium range build, and if you play close-medium range but can't go past 65 without significantly reducing firepower or ammo, you can't stay back or move cover to cover.

Essentially, wide open maps mean I have a 30% chance of dying if their Light actually scouts for their team and their team has an LRM boat.

Like I said, it's not that LRM's are too strong or too accurate, it's mostly the angle at which they can attack. An LRM boat can hide behind a hill and fire a barrage of missiles that can negate 75% of the cover in a map so I can either sit still and let the enemy cap our base/points, or I can attempt to move to the next spot of LRM-safe cover and hope that the LRM doesn't target me.

[Victor Morson]

Metalsand, on 13 November 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Like I said, it's not that LRM's are too strong or too accurate, it's mostly the angle at which they can attack. An LRM boat can hide behind a hill and fire a barrage of missiles that can negate 75% of the cover in a map so I can either sit still and let the enemy cap our base/points, or I can attempt to move to the next spot of LRM-safe cover and hope that the LRM doesn't target me.

Sure if they want absolute {Scrap} all for damage they can indirect fire. If they want to accomplish anything remotely worthwhile, however, they will try to get LOS and get a TAG on you.

Boats without Artemis/TAG can at worst tickle you to death and you have neither in indirect mode. People VERY much overvalue indirect fire. 99% of the time it's not even worth taking the shot because the lock will be lost long before they impact anyway.

[Lightfoot]

I never get hit by LRMs in most games. I just don't make myself a target and if I get into difficulty like with a spotter, I just shutdown for 5 seconds or so. I think I have been killed by LRMs twice in the past three months.

I used LRMs alot on my Orion for awhile, but they are so inefficient I just shelved the Orion and went to something with AC's and brawling ability since that is the new meta since they removed Gauss and PPCs. And hey, it's 10x better than LRMs on an Orion.

So, no. LRMs with Artemis need a big ol' Buff like fire-and-forget like Battletech has them set up.

[Metalsand]

Lightfoot, on 13 November 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

I never get hit by LRMs in most games. I just don't make myself a target and if I get into difficulty like with a spotter, I just shutdown for 5 seconds or so. I think I have been killed by LRMs twice in the past three months.

I used LRMs alot on my Orion for awhile, but they are so inefficient I just shelved the Orion and went to something with AC's and brawling ability since that is the new meta since they removed Gauss and PPCs. And hey, it's 10x better than LRMs on an Orion.

So, no. LRMs with Artemis need a big ol' Buff like fire-and-forget like Battletech has them set up.

I've been killed with LRM's about ~5 times this week, ~10 if you count in the combined LRM spam, then Light mech shooting my damaged chest and getting the kill credit mid-volley. It's not damage or RoF that needs to be changed, but just the attack angle that forces you out of cover on the wide open maps where LRM cover is far and few between.

[Lyoto Machida]

Victor Morson, on 13 November 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

Sure if they want absolute {Scrap} all for damage they can indirect fire. If they want to accomplish anything remotely worthwhile, however, they will try to get LOS and get a TAG on you.

Boats without Artemis/TAG can at worst tickle you to death and you have neither in indirect mode. People VERY much overvalue indirect fire. 99% of the time it's not even worth taking the shot because the lock will be lost long before they impact anyway.

Exactly...I usually shoot from 250-400m out and right from behind the line of brawlers. Shorter range = faster travel time to target.

[Novakaine]

Specops12, on 11 November 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

While the damage on lrms is fine, the spread of Artemis lrms and the arc in general is getting ridiculous, most cover not twice the height of your mech seems to do nothing, and lrms will often turn around obstacles if shot at the correct angle. Please lower the firing arc to require more direct fire or something....

What LRMs need is a betty noob terrain alert.
"Warning open terrain, warning open terrain."
Stop with the nerfing before we end up with firing marshmallows at each other.
Jeebus!

[Daekar]

Of all the things to complain about being OP, I totally didn't expect LRMs to make the cut. OP, have you tried pugging with LRMs lately? It's effing impossible most of the time. Anybody running LRMs as a primary weapon is often a liability to their team, and it has been that way since ECM was added. Unless it becomes commonplace for puggers to launch drones, my Founder's Cat isn't going to be carrying more than 2xLRM5s for harassment. Since SRMs got nerfed so hard by ghost heat and the hit detection, I haven't taken my A1 or C4 out in ages.

Seriously... even self-tagging LRMs are mediocre and really only suitable for those who are tired of pwning noons with their metamachines.

[ColonelMetus]

lrms are the most complained about thing, nerf them