99 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

It has been posited that weapon balance is in a good place because there are "tradeoffs" between weapon classes. Ballistics use ammo and weigh a lot in exchange for low heat, etc. This is true, and good. Tradeoffs should exist, as they increase the variety of game play. A laser should play different from an autocannon, which should play different than SRMs, etc.

However, there is another aspect of tradeoffs that has been overlooked: the tradeoffs must be significant enough in order to make the utility/cost (not monetary, but tonnage and slot usage costs) ratio of the different weapon systems roughly equal.

It's for this reason that the vastly increased rates of fire of AC2s/5s is legitimate, because without those increased rates of fire, their utility/cost ratio would be disastrously low. They simply weigh too much to justify using a weapon with extremely low DPS. We saw this back in CB before their fire rates were increased substantially.

Similarly, I think PPCs (not their ER variant however) have a good utility/cost ratio when used in conjunction with ballistics. They're in a good place as builds that combine PPCs with AC5s/10s/20s are very popular and strong. This is because pin-point damage reigns supreme, and PPCs do provide a way to get pin point damage without using ammo, at the expense having a very heat-limited DPS. That's a tradeoff that displays good balance. ERPPCs, however, have a tradeoff that does not display good balance. They get superior range and no minimum in exchange for absurdly high heat. The absurdly high heat makes them so useless, however, that the tradeoff is not worth it.

Lasers are in a spot that is similar to ERPPCs. Sure, they tradeoff high heat and low tonnage for no ammo, however their DPS is limited, they don't do that damage to a pin-point location, and their range is lackluster, especially with the 2x max range cap for energy weapons. We often see mechs with multiple ballistic slots and a few energy slots eschew the use of those energy slots for more ammo for their small-caliber autocannons. This means that the utility/cost ratio of a single medium laser is not even as good as a ton of AC5 ammo.

[Joseph Mallan]

So...
Shorten Beam length?

[mike29tw]

ERPPC can be improved by increasing its projectile speed. It's supposed to be better at longer range than its regular counterpart right? Make it easier to land your shots.

I still believe that AC should be made into a burst of shells with each shot. If done right, PPC/ACs combo will be brought back in line with Gauss/lasers combo.

Edited by mike29tw, 13 November 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 November 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

So...
Shorten Beam length?

"BINGO"

PGI could have mitigated a lot of ghost-heat bellyaching by simply adjusting expanding the apex weapon cycle-times.

In this case again. "yes" shorter cycle-times would in fact allow for granular balance efforts between ballistics and energy weapons.

[AlmightyAeng]

Can we discuss SRM's, too, and how a slight damage buff might make up for the spread and/or extra slot/ton that artemis loses you?

SRM's...not sure if it'***** detection or just lackluster damage...either way I just keep finding that of the three classes of weapons, they punch the lightest.

LRM's...weak and negated by other systems...or LURMAGGEDON...why is it so hard to find a happy medium?

Missiles seem pretty dang hard hit by ghost heat, too, since without 'boating' they hardly seem worth it compared to other systems you can take.

[Vulix]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

This means that the utility/cost ratio of a single medium laser is not even as good as a ton of AC5 ammo.

Lol

[Otto Cannon]

It's a shame they had to stick to canon as far as ppcs are concerned. It might have worked better for game balance if the ppc had no minimum range and the er version was much longer range but with a minimum. Both could be about the same heat cost then and be useable instead of the ridiculously high heat sniper version being the one you can close range brawl with.

[Diego Angelus]

I love SRMs but they have major issue they should be effective in 270m but they are not because longer they fly more spread they get I managed to find use for them on my 4SP but i have to use them below 100m to be fully effective. Problem is not damage i think its fine but spread has to be fixed so they are usable at 270M. What is the point of weapon if have to hug enemy to use it.

[Sandpit]

Did we need a new thread on this subject.....? Good ideas and well thought out post but it's still just a subject that's being rehashed in several other threads right now

[Roland]

I have numerous configurations that run erppcs, so I have to disagree with the belief that they are useless.

[Draconis March]

Roland, on 13 November 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I have numerous configurations that run erppcs, so I have to disagree with the belief that they are useless.

The fact that YOU run them doesn't prove that they're not useless.

[JoJoxy]

Draconis March, on 13 November 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

The fact that YOU run them doesn't prove that they're not useless.

There is a difference between proving and disagreeing. He did the latter

[Roland]

Yes, I merely pointed out my disagreement, although the fact that I can clearly lay out specific uses for the erppc would prove that the original statement is objectively false.

I tend to run a single erppc paired with autocannons to generate large single point damage strikes.

If running on a mech carrying other short range weapons, then I will often choose a regular ppc for the improved efficiency. However, on certain builds, being able to use the erppc at point blank range is invaluable. On mechs whose loadouts don't generate additional heat, the standard engine heat sinks can effectively cover the usage for a single erppc for long enough to manage (assuming an upgrade to double sinks).

So that would in fact prove that the erppc is not currently useless.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 13 November 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Did we need a new thread on this subject.....? Good ideas and well thought out post but it's still just a subject that's being rehashed in several other threads right now

Sometimes there is a better argument made by the OP, instead of the rehashed bad versions by other posters.

[Khobai]

Quote

pin-point damage reigns supreme

thats the biggest problem with the current weapon balance.

ssrms were unbalanced because they all hit center torso. now that they spread damage out theyre fine. PGI needs to apply that same principle to all weapons.

either that or the pinpoint weapons need to have massive downsides like gauss does.

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 13 November 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Sometimes there is a better argument made by the OP, instead of the rehashed bad versions by other posters.

which can still be posted in an existing thread

[Roland]

Khobai, on 13 November 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

thats the biggest problem with the current weapon balance.

ssrms were unbalanced because they all hit center torso. now that they spread damage out theyre fine. PGI needs to apply that same principle to all weapons.

either that or the pinpoint weapons need to have massive downsides like gauss does.

Streaks had problems not simply because they all hit your ct, but rather because they did so without the shooter needing to even need to aim. You basically just held down the trigger and did constant damage. The weapon required no skill at all to use, unlike weapons that you actually aim yourself.

[akpavker]

Khobai, on 13 November 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

thats the biggest problem with the current weapon balance.

ssrms were unbalanced because they all hit center torso. now that they spread damage out theyre fine. PGI needs to apply that same principle to all weapons.

either that or the pinpoint weapons need to have massive downsides like gauss does.

these are bad idea's i think i would quit the game if they were implemented. im not sure which is a worse idea adding a charge timer to AC's or making damage spread from all weapons but if either are introduces to the game im out of here and id say lots of others would leave aswell. these idea might sound appealing to TT players that like the randomness of dice rolls but to any one else it will just be plain boring!

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 13 November 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

which can still be posted in an existing thread

Well, posting in a related thread that's destined for K-town doesn't help either. Just saying.

[YueFei]

akpavker, on 13 November 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

these are bad idea's i think i would quit the game if they were implemented. im not sure which is a worse idea adding a charge timer to AC's or making damage spread from all weapons but if either are introduces to the game im out of here and id say lots of others would leave aswell. these idea might sound appealing to TT players that like the randomness of dice rolls but to any one else it will just be plain boring!

There's nothing random about a laser. It just takes more skill to put the beam in the same spot for the entire burn time. It also gives the victim a chance to maneuver defensively on reflex to shade the hitbox you're trying to hit. It ups the skill cap, it doesn't lower it or randomize your shots.