220 replies to this topic

[Taemien]

Vodrin Thales, on 20 November 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

That's the real take home. Assume an enemy is going to drop arty on you if you sit still and act accordingly.

Heck you can go third person while standing behind a hill, see smoke and move away. You just wasted some poor sod's cbills.

[gjnii]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 November 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

You wanna play a fighting game, but you don't want to accept the consequences! That makes no sense to me.

I don't get this line of thinking. Never have.

Joseph Mallan, on 20 November 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

You wanna play a fighting game, but you don't want to accept the consequences! That makes no sense to me.

I don't get this line of thinking. Never have.

I don't begrudge people that play to win using an easy, obvious, random or tangential tactic (one that tests skills that don't really apply to the core concept of the game) to play to win. But I DO begrudge it when they then claim that it shouldn't be corrected because removing said tactic is for the noncompetitive slaves of orthodoxy.

Dropping an artillery strike requires no exceptional skill or capability. It potentially REMOVES a layer of skill comparison by removing players on the other team without the usual skill contests. It is exceptionally unpredictable and random and can be wielded in the same degree by any mech or team member, further reducing any "skillful" use of it.

I don't think people would argue that NFL players today are just a bunch of scrubs, because the games rules have been tweaked over time to better foster competition that the fans enjoy watching, and that highlights the skills people believe are important to the game. In fact most people would argue the opposite, that NFL players today are hands down more competitive, more physically capable, and better fitted to the roles and skills that define the game.

We don't have spectating fans to please in mwo, so the equation becomes even simpler. The real measure of success if how the playerbase feels about it, and whether it enhances the core concepts of the game everyone showed up to play prior to its appearance, or whether it detracts from it.

Artillery is random
Artillery can be used effectively with a minimum level of skill
Artillery can remove a skilled player quite effectively: as people have pointed out, smoke may not be the best signifier of an attack of this nature... every other weapon in MWO has much more pronounced telltales, much more requirements on its equipment and use, and more obstacles to instantly killing you (a lot of weapons in mechwarrior simply cannot instantly dispatch a completely pristine mech, in fact).

Because this is a team game, Artillery can also arbitrarily slant an otherwise much more balanced match in one sides favor further hampering the interactions the game is built on.

A good team player (in addition to using it to maximum effectiveness, until rules are changed) should also be asking, "Is there a way artillery could be altered that would increase the component of skill resulting from its addition?"
That's how you get a better experience for everyone involved.
Anyone hoping to keep a such a newly added, random and relatively unskilled item in the game exactly as is, would be more "scrub-like" in my mind. A person resistant to change because they don't like the idea of the ruleset evolving.

I'm not sure why you can't understand this particular train of thought, but I do suggest you try, as I feel it is quite clearly outlined, and not particularly complex, and may lead to a deeper understanding of competition and team sports (and why rules change over time).

[James Montana]

Taemien, on 20 November 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I dunno if the smoke needs to go or not. I kinda like it because it lets me know when a friendly just dropped one. Don't want to get friendly fired by one of those. But the smoke is a helluva lot less noticable than the MechCommander bright big Orange rings.

Its pretty easy to distract someone enough so they don't notice the smoke. Just look at the screenie posted above lol.

I didn't think about the friendly indication aspect. Hmmm... I wonder instead of smoke friendly forces get a visual indicator via their HUD/Nuerohelmet, and enemies can be notified if vested in some indirect fire warning module?

[Coralld]

Arty and air strikes need better audio sounds when being delivered as to sound more intense and dramatic, for example, you hear the artillery guns fire off in the distance fallowed by the spectacular explosions as the shells land.

Other then that, they are fine.

[Thunder Child]

I've used Arty, and been on the receiving end of it.
To be fair, it does give a hell of a fright, but THAT IS the point of it.
As to NOT needing skill to use it, I would have to politely disagree. Yes, any Muppet and his dog can go "Derp, I dropped an Arty on that Atlas!". But many times, the Atlas will either move, or already be moving, before the Strike hits. You need to place it without your opponents awareness of it being placed, or place it at such a time that they cannot avoid it.
But I personally believe that it is well balanced at this time. It costs C-Bills or (heaven forbid) MC to purchase, you have only one shot each, and to use it, you have to sacrifice another potentially more useful module. Additionally, you also have to expose yourself to enemy fire to target it. And to target with any precision takes at least a second of exposure, potentially earning upwards of 50 points of damage in return fire.
To be fair, I would love more audible cues of the incoming disaster, such as loud booms from the cannons when they fire, or a roar of an aerospace fighter on its approach.
But I would also love to see Traditional BT mounted artillery. Until we get the Arrow IV and the Longtom, I am happy to stick with these modules.
TL:DR. They are fine for now. Find something more important to ***** about.

[Drunk Canuck]

The cool down timer needs to be increased or the damage needs to be reduced. Those are the only two balance options that work to prevent future abuse in CW. When teams and clans do synch drops though, every player is packing at least one, if not two. With how useless seismic sensor is now, the strike modules quite literally are the most useful modules in the game.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Leave them alone. If i was going to change anything I would drop the ptp option on them but that will never happen. Past that its a good tool in the box for those special circumstances. If you cant figure out what smoke looks like then its just too bad.

[Livewyr]

Arty and Airstrikes should be directed via map.

Audible/Visual Warning just like missiles.

No smoke.

(In all my time as a mortarman, we never through smoke grenades to mark the target.. we got grid coordinates. We *did* however have a lovely system I'm not allowed to talk much about that detected incoming mortars, rockets, and artillery.)

[Mcchuggernaut]

I have been playing around with the new artillery and air strikes a bit, and they seem a bit...dull. There isn't much of an explosion or sound to go along with them when they hit. I think they need a little artistic love.

[Diego Angelus]

Those are fine only problem is they can be used too much during a match I mean in competitive matches those thing fall non stop its insane we need global cooldown moved to 45sec to 1min. At least we don't see a lot of those in pugs because its expensive to use every match.

[-Muta-]

Just leave it as it is. I do not find any problems with that

[John MatriX82]

Artilleries are now rather spammed, especially in competitive 12 mans.

I believe that the dmg per shot should be lower than a potential headshot like reducing them to 30 dmg per shell instead of 40; since we have 400 dmg total, they could simply add 2-4 more shells to achieve a better area density, still avoiding incredible headshots.

The new explosion effects are cool, but many times i don't even hear the explosions sound AND I'd like to hear the shells sibling while falling down as in WWII. It would have a nice "fear factor" and it would be a further feedback that you're under a rain of death.

Edited by John MatriX82, 21 November 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[Troutmonkey]

I nice boom 6 seconds before the mortar and the incoming whistle screach of doom about 4 seconds before could make them pretty cool. The damage seems fine, but I still want to see a global 1 minute timer so they're not spammed every ten seconds.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 21 November 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[Taemien]

John MatriX82, on 21 November 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Artilleries are now rather spammed, especially in competitive 12 mans.

Source? Something seems fishy about this statement, so I'll allow you to explain yourself a little more before I say why.

[John MatriX82]

Taemien, on 21 November 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Source? Something seems fishy about this statement, so I'll allow you to explain yourself a little more before I say why.

Hmm play high level 12 mans and see it for yourself. It's not uncommon that each one of the 12 players brings an arty or airstrike. Given how seismic has become worthless and the dmg of those consumables has been considerabily increased.. oh there! A free module slot! = arty spamfest.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Livewyr, on 21 November 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

Arty and Airstrikes should be directed via map.

Audible/Visual Warning just like missiles.

No smoke.

(In all my time as a mortarman, we never through smoke grenades to mark the target.. we got grid coordinates. We *did* however have a lovely system I'm not allowed to talk much about that detected incoming mortars, rockets, and artillery.)

There is nothing TS about Q36/37 radars/LCMR or even GSD systems in the modern military anyway. Plenty of unclass material on the net about these and similar detection systems. Regardless they are all bad examples. Patrol elements in a firefight do not have them in their rucksack or on their IFV/tank warning them that they are about to take incoming. The red smoke here is a pure conceit to people who would complain bitterly if there was not SOME form of warni g.

[Lukoi Banacek]

That being said, whether effective employment of the arty is a skill or not is debatable but it is definitely closer to the manuever combat the game purports to "sim" and no additional warnings are necessary or realistic really.

DOnt sit still in a fixed position duri g maneuver combat. Snipers and Mortarmen both shoot and scoot traditionally and this arty helps reinforce that. You want to just sit still the entire time you reap what ya sow.

[verybad]

Diego Angelus, on 21 November 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Those are fine only problem is they can be used too much during a match I mean in competitive matches those thing fall non stop its insane we need global cooldown moved to 45sec to 1min. At least we don't see a lot of those in pugs because its expensive to use every match.

Yeah non stop, but with the ten second timer between shots How still are people playing in these 'competitive' matches?

Most of the ones I've seen fired don't even hit the target, just make a bunch of noise and 'splosions (finally)

They're great for driving a superior force off a capping point however.

Edited by verybad, 21 November 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Drunk Canuck]

Taemien, on 21 November 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Source? Something seems fishy about this statement, so I'll allow you to explain yourself a little more before I say why.

Who needs a source? Clearly you don't play comp 12's so you are oblivious to how much they are used. My team is in Marik Civil War right now and when they got the buff, everyone started using them. Our first match after the buff, the other team was raining them down on our heads when we made contact. Now every team carries at least 6 of them between 12 players, plus UAV on top of that.

[Drunk Canuck]

verybad, on 21 November 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Yeah non stop, but with the ten second timer between shots How still are people playing in these 'competitive' matches?

Most of the ones I've seen fired don't even hit the target, just make a bunch of noise and 'splosions (finally)

They're great for driving a superior force off a capping point however.

10 seconds between usage and by the time the shells have dropped, the next one is off cooldown. The timer needs to be increased to either 30 or 45 seconds. If your players are in position, you can rain Hail Mary on them while they try and get out of LOS.