120 replies to this topic

[Jakob Knight]

mp00, on 19 November 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

It was stated that it would be 12 IS mechs vs 10 Clan mechs. Of coarse that could have changed..

Where was this quote from? As far as I am aware, this is just player speculation based on lore, and absolutely no such statement has come from the devs (and we all know how much worth any statements from them have anyway).

[mp00]

Yeah you are right, I couldn't find it.. I guess if something is said enough it does become a 'statement' in ones mind.. my bad

[Nemial]

in the battletech novels the clans were only more powerful because they had technology never seen before in the IS for example pulse lasers and double heat sinks these were unavailible to the IS until the clan invasion we are able to equip mechs with these now if the game was true to lore we should not even be able to equip these now until the clan mechs show up

i think the main benifit to owning a clan mech will be the ability to equip any weapon mount due to the clans omni mech technology removing the need for multiple varients of the same mech but there will still be weight limits to stop them being OP

[Arctcwolf]

First, I want to say...they are stil a LOOOOOOONG way from implementing clan mechs...

As it stands...the publishers are slowly implementing the lostech technology into the current gameplay. They are also implementing new IS mechs slowly over time as well. We still have hundreds of IS mechs that can be put out before the "clan invasion" comes.

As to how clan tech will roll out...heres how that will work...

The game will need a PvE component as it matures...unless the publishers let some of the best pilots become a part of "wolf's dragoon's", NO ONE will be able to straight up purchase clan tech or mechs at the beginning. They will invade the Inner Sphere just like they did in the books/games, and at first they will outnumber us...3 Stars of clan mechs = 15, 3 lances of IS mechs = 12. We will most likely have to take on skirmish, defense, recon, and similar missions to try to slow down the clan advance. Each faction will be affected differently because of differences in the clan invasion corridor. Each faction dealing with a different clan threat just like in Lore.

I would expect there to be the ability to salvage clan tech and weapons off the battlefield after successful engagements. I dont see these engagements being won very often. I also see events being put into the game revolving around pilot skill, damage done, ect that will award the best pilots salvage rights to clan tech. The best getting the best and so on.

Logical progression of skill points would suggest the ability to call salvage trucks much like aerospace strikes, as well as ability to reverse engineer clan weapons and tech u acquire so u can make more for yourself.

Clan mechs, in the end, will be OP. They are supposed to be. Their setups will benefit from lighter weight, less crit requirements, longer range, less heat, better accuracy, better heat management, more armor, and so on. The IS countered this with their own versions of Omnimechs once clan tech was acquired. So, once everyone is able to buy clan mechs, it will be another achievement for us to reach, another challenge.

Till then, I'd like to see the publishers keep focused on adding new aspects. play in battle armor like in the mech assault games...play as aerospace fighters...play as ground support tanks and artillery...involve dropships into longer senarios that give us a defensable base...repair bays in the longer senarios...developed outposts worth defending long term, much more of a "risk" type strategy gameplay that keeps us focused on the strategic aspect of the game as much as the FPS.

[Rasc4l]

Arctcwolf, on 20 November 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

I would expect there to be the ability to salvage clan tech and weapons off the battlefield after successful engagements. I dont see these engagements being won very often. I also see events being put into the game revolving around pilot skill, damage done, ect that will award the best pilots salvage rights to clan tech. The best getting the best and so on.

I used to think it would be cool to be able to salvage clan tech. Not anymore, because

1) If it's too easy to salvage, everyone will have it and IS tech will be obsolete.

2) If it's very hard to salvage, the top 12 vs. 12 matches will anyway have it, because hardcore ppl will grind so long until they get their clan tech. So basically still the same problem as with 1) except there will be more whine from the weekend mechwarriors, who are not able to obtain it.

So considering that they couldn't make R&R work, I don't think there's any chance that mixed tech could be balanced properly. I hope that clantech stays with the clans.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 19 November 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

The problem is that wouldn't happen.
You remember the rise of fire power simple by the fact or DHS and Endosteel available?
And at this time XL tech, Gauss, ERPPCs.... was allready ingame.

To be shock and awe - PGI never should have allowed Star League Technology - and if - only one technology per Mech and Master Skill.
The will hardly be faster, nor better armored nor will have better heat dissipation

I remember how Double sinks and Gauss raised the bar back in the 80s, I also remember how the Bar got raised when Clan Mechs were introduced a year later. That is the escalation I want to face here! I already played this war once I wanna see it when I am facing a variety of players with superior weapons. I wanna see if grit and determination can eventually overcome.

[Jakob Knight]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 November 2013 - 05:11 AM, said:

I remember how Double sinks and Gauss raised the bar back in the 80s, I also remember how the Bar got raised when Clan Mechs were introduced a year later. That is the escalation I want to face here! I already played this war once I wanna see it when I am facing a variety of players with superior weapons. I wanna see if grit and determination can eventually overcome.

Unfortunately, Ghost Heat, 3PV, Coolant Flush, and weapon tweeks to reduce all weapons to the same level pretty clearly give you the answer. No, they can't. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had any of those changes.

And that is probably the best indication of how the Clans will be implemented. If the Devs believe a mech with two PPCs and a Guass Rifle or two AC/20s is too powerful to be allowed to function unpenalized (or even a stock AWS-8Q), then there is probably zero chance they will be able to implement the Clans as anything other than equal but not superior units to what is in the game already.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 20 November 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[SIN Deacon]

Don't stress too much about something that isn't going to happen folks!

[Joseph Mallan]

Jakob Knight, on 20 November 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Unfortunately, Ghost Heat, 3PV, Coolant Flush, and weapon tweeks to reduce all weapons to the same level pretty clearly give you the answer. No, they can't. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had any of those changes.

And that is probably the best indication of how the Clans will be implemented. If the Devs believe a mech with two PPCs and a Guass Rifle or two AC/20s is too powerful to be allowed to function unpenalized (or even a stock AWS-8Q), then there is probably zero chance they will be able to implement the Clans as anything other than equal but not superior units to what is in the game already.

I see myself leaving shortly after Clans arrive then. I am here to kick the krap out of Godzilla not House Kurita.

[TommyAtkins]

One balance possibility aside from how the mechs are built or how the tech plays in game is to adjust how the Clans play. IS work in lances of 4. Clan in stars of 5. So two stars against 3 lances would make sense. Also IS mechs would gang up against clan mechs. Clan mechs would pick ONE target, and "duel" that target until they are finished, and only engage multiple mechs if fired upon. So if as a clan mech you had to "call out" a target and then the game would not let you fire on any mech that hasn't fired upon you it would force players to play like a Clan mech. Just an idea.

[BLOOD WOLF]

CLANS!!!, forget man, u guys are just gonna have to deal with the pain

[Thorn Hallis]

Jakob Knight, on 19 November 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Probably more like 2015, since they have to roll out CW before the Clans, and CW isn't even in a state where the Devs can tell us what it will be like...i.e. no where close to being coded. It is likely we will have a fairly long period of time to play the CW and get the bugs out before the game is ready for an expansion like the Clans, so figure CW by the end of 2014 (maybe), and Clans about a year after that (2015, 2016). At least, based on to competancy of this team as demonstrated to date.

I don't know, I think both CW and the introduction of the Clans into MWO will go hand in hand. Unless PGI plans to drop the timeline and "replay" the invasion.

[Kain]

PGI main resources are used to design and build new mechs, because they can sell those for MC / real money, which is fairly important for a F2P game.
And they are done with the current lineup in march (wolverine will be released)

And when they could implement masc, they could also release the Flea, so they buy another month time, so probably we will see another lineup "clan package, operation revival" in June - ish

...if we are lucky

Edited by Kain, 24 November 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[Clideb50]

To be honest I'm not sure how game breaking clan mechs are going to be. They already come installed with endo, ferro, and XL engines, so they're already carrying as much as they can. The only things that I notice that'll make them outright better is the clan tech (weapons, engine, etc.), and the omni slots.

[Tolkien]

PGI took on a set of challenges that is going to amount to an albatross around their and the games neck.

1) Almost unfettered customization - without even hardpoint sizes (downgrade from mechwarrior IV shockingly)
2) Lvl 2 IS technology where they have to start doing weird things with LBX10s to try to keep the AC10 useful (on tabletop it was a flat out better replacement).
3) Next up clan tech

IMOHO they will keep clan mechs 'stock' so the clan weapons will all have the same size and weight, but they'll have to seriously change their range, damage and heat. And guess what? I think clan weapons will have to be universally worse than inner sphere weapons since clan chassis also benefit from things like:
a) two slot XL side torsos
b ) two slot double heatsinks (yay water buff!)
c) Endo steel takes only 7 slots for clanners instead of 14 for IS
d) FF takes only 7 slots for clanners instead of 14 for IS

Mixed tech will bring further problems if it's allowed. Assuming they make the clan weapons worse to balance off the far superior clan chassis (2 Slot XL side torsos+ 2 slot double heatsinks + 7 slot endosteel +7 slot ferro fibrous), clan pilots would then be tempted to put inner sphere weapons on. Welcome to MWO where clan mechs use inner sphere weapons and nothing is as it seems!

As much as I adore customization, and fighting with/against clan tech as a scenario on tabletop, I think that the balancing act required to make all of this work together, then to *also* dovetail into CW (can clanners take mercenary contracts? Can liao house regulars fight the clans despite the invasion lanes never getting there?) is going to cause some serious development gymnastics and balancing issues.

Edited by Tolkien, 24 November 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[gjnii]

I wouldn't worry, PGI is a company that's willing to take the extra time to really do something, and they've been working on this one for a while. I'm sure by this point they have at least 1 Trapper Keeper full of scrawled notes and doodles of clan mechs blowing up their 4th grade teachers. There are probably some cool drawings of jets in there too, and maybe even a couple of dinosuars. I expect at this point they might even have a notepad file listing some of the weapons with some numbers next to them that list their damage (or maybe heat generation, its tough to tell when the numbers aren't labeled).

Now that may not sound like a lot, but they still have all Winter, Spring, Summer, and probably Winter again to figure out that dinosaurs do not play a major role in the MW universe, and that clan weapons have both damage AND heat numbers. I think they can handle that. Spring 2016, Dinosaur Free clan roll-out, you heard it here first.

[Gremlich Johns]

mp00, on 19 November 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

It was stated that it would be 12 IS mechs vs 10 Clan mechs.

This is how balance should be achieved, not by screwing with the tech. Clan-oriented teams start 2 men down and have to be better than the opposition, plain and simple. Otherwise, if PGI nerfs the Clan tech to make sure a mass exodus to the clan tech does not occur, then they'll have to do 12v12 because the weapons will be in parity.

I do not believe they have reasoned out the consequences of nerfing clan tech and still requiring 12v10. The Clan teams will get steamrolled.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 24 November 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Gremlich Johns, on 24 November 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

I do not believe they have reasoned out the consequences of nerfing clan tech and still requiring 12v10. The Clan teams will get steamrolled.

The tech alone is not enough to ensure victory if the pilots are total noobs.
And Clans should drop with 2 stars, i see no reason to change it.

[Karl Streiger]

Tolkien, on 24 November 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

As much as I adore customization, and fighting with/against clan tech as a scenario on tabletop, I think that the balancing act required to make all of this work together, then to *also* dovetail into CW (can clanners take mercenary contracts? Can liao house regulars fight the clans despite the invasion lanes never getting there?) is going to cause some serious development gymnastics and balancing issues.

Yep - i think in the same ways. It doesn't look like much but the lighter and more compact equipment - will change balance in some serious ways.
Even when the weapons work 100% like the IS counter parts (not considering ER-MLAS, UAC 2,10,20; LBX 2,5, 20, SSRM4,6)

For example the current Quad UAC 5 Jaeger - with ClanTech -> will be tougher(near max armor - and XL) with 10tons of ammunition.

The only idea to keep balance in place is - to make the Weight / Heat Ratio for clan weapons worser.
For example reduce ammunition per ton for ClanWeapons - for example instead of 30shots ton a Clan UAC 5 should only have 20shots -> (because of build in CASE)
Increase Heat for all weapons. 1 -2 more heat for all clan energy weapons.
Cut Range for Clan LRMs, SRMs and SSRMs.

And those changes will simple not effect the - frustrating idea of a dual AC 20 boat: (and at least every Mech in MWO would be able to have a UAC 20 - because its only 8 crits. So the main argument for Mechs like HGN733C and YenLo are gone when Mixed Tech would be allowed.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 November 2013 - 02:27 AM.

[101011]

Kataiser, on 18 November 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

They should absolutely not be lore-faithful for Clan tech. I don't want 6-ton, 15-damage, no-minimum-range, 2-crit-slot PPCs. I don't want CERMLs that are basically 1-ton Large Lasers. I do not want LB20-Xes that can fit in a torso with an XL engine. I do not want XL engines that take up less space and are not destroyed by taking just one side torso out.

If the Clans are that busted, then it doesn't matter how they design the game. It will be unfair and nobody will pilot IS.

There's this funny thing called game mechanics that would let you keep most lore stats and yet change pretty much everything about a weapon system. For example: take that LB20X and make it fire in slow moving bursts with long intervals between each shell, making it less likely that all would hit.