67 replies to this topic

[Banditman]

Disclaimer: My comments, concerns and questions are specifically targeted at the 12 man queue unless otherwise noted herein. I would also state for the record that at present, my unit does not have a horse in this race so to speak. We do not participate in any of the external competitions. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate those folks, it doesn't mean anything more than we simply don't want to deal with the technical limits that are currently part of it.


Due to the utter lack of any sort of metagame, the community has been forced to make the best of a bad situation. There are various entities out there that have tried to develop competitions and metagames for MWO. You know who they are: RHoD, Proxis, etc.

I remember the first RHoD and how excited PGI was to see it. Despite the fact that they (PGI) had absolutely and inconceivably managed to neglect any sort of support for it in their game, people made an effort to develop what any game needs in order to establish and maintain a long term community: a metagame. PGI loved it, they went out of their way to say so.

Other competitions have sprung up despite the continued neglect of PGI to provide the kind of support that any other game would have deemed mandatory. The community has a lot of very dedicated folks who cater to it and want it to succeed, sometimes I feel like they want it to succeed in spite of PGI, instead of with the help of PGI. God bless them.

Recently, it has come to my attention that PGI has started to make life even harder for those folks, and I'm here to stand up and say "It's wrong. It's bull*(&@". As a team with a huge presence in the 12 man queue, we're in a very unique position to see the pain that PGI is inflicting on the MWO community as a whole.

You see, apparently PGI has decided that they need to "crack down" on sync dropping, which is currently the only method by which these external competitions can even exist. This came to my attention as my team began to get a lot of unwelcome and unfavorable acknowledgement from these teams who are struggling to deal with the limitations of the game and forge on toward a viable external competition.

We have nothing but the utmost respect for those teams who choose to make the best of a bad situation with MWO and try to forge a community and competition. As I said earlier, God bless them. They have a lot more patience than my team does to work with what they have and still try to enjoy what they are doing.

What changed you ask? Very simply, PGI has started to tell these teams who are seeking to sync drop with a specific opponent that they can't do that. Oh, not so overtly as that, of course not. That wouldn't be a supportable position. Instead, it's been much more insidious.

PGI has started to crack down on suiciding. (Disclaimer! I made one! Read it again before you get excited!)

You see, up until recently, when a pair of teams trying to sync drop for a competition "missed" their sync, they simpy ran out of bounds or team killed each other quickly to make another attempt to hit that team in the queue whom they are trying to have a match with. Now, PGI has told these teams that they have to play out their "missed" sync drops.

WTF?

I cannot even fathom how this is deemed "ok" by PGI. Oh, I understand it in the four man queue. I cannot even comprehend it in the 12 man queue.

PGI is crushing their biggest supporters by putting layer upon layer of limitations and hurdles between their game and those who are among the most interested in helping it to go as far as it will. This is not ok.

Do I like it when we finally get a match in the 12 man queue and the team we're playing says "Sorry, missed sync" and then suicides? No, I hate it. But I understand it. Forcing that team to play a match it doesn't want is hurting the entire 12 man queue.

For the teams being "forced" to play out a missed sync, they are frustrated and unhappy. Frankly, they shouldn't be in this position to begin with. But they are. And they aren't happy. I understand it, completely.

For teams who are on the other side, my team being one of the largest, we don't like it either. We're a huge presence in that queue, and we are drawing the most fire from this simply because of that presence. We've been accused of trolling the queue just for playing the game.

Taking it a step further, I frankly don't want my team playing against a team that isn't there to play us to the best of their abilities. It taints our successes. When the only desire of a team like SJR or Blackstone or 228th or . . . whoever is to get out of the match, any success we have against them is tainted by the fact that their fastest way out of the current match is to play poorly. That's {Scrap}. I don't want to win by default. If we lose, we lose. If we win, I want it to be a win we worked for, played our best for and won against a team who gave us their best in return.

Stop the bloody madness. If you read this and have any sort of contact with a developer, mod or whatever, please encourage, harass and annoy them until this gets sorted out. I don't want to hear about UI 2.0. I don't want to hear about Community Warfare. Those are excuses. This recent change is one that no one is benefiting from, and in fact, is driving a wedge between different sections of the MWO community as a whole.

It needs to stop. PGI needs to start serving the community it wants to have pay their salary instead of continuing to place hurdles and wedges in the middle of it.

Thank you for your time.

[RG Notch]

Interesting so rules should only apply to some people? I don't play in 12 mans at all, but if I did and people who didn't get their match up suicided, I'd be annoyed and report them. The fact that PGI is inept at providing these people a valid way to play shouldn't impact others who just want a 12 man match.
This is the same as people who want a map selector and who DC on purpose since they don't like certain maps. PGI's inablity or choice not to provide options isn't a reason to ruin other people's gaming.

[Bilbo]

It's pretty simple really. It's against the TOS. While your unit may have no problem with it, others may find it distasteful. They cued up to play not watch their opponent destroy themselves.

[ApolloKaras]

Bilbo, on 19 November 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

It's pretty simple really. It's against the TOS. While your unit may have no problem with it, others may find it distasteful. They cued up to play not watch their opponent destroy themselves.

So your solution is to just ban the tournaments?

[CeeKay Boques]

Banditman, on 19 November 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

. I don't want to hear about UI 2.0. I don't want to hear about Community Warfare. Those are excuses.

You may think they are "excuses", but they are the only dev path you have to success. Dev's have stated that 2.0 is required for private matches. CW is also building tools for new ways of playing together. There will not be a separate dev path for private matches that is apart from what is in the current pipeline.

So... patience or eject are your two options at this point.

[CeeKay Boques]

Saxie, on 19 November 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

So your solution is to just ban the tournaments?

I know how hard it is to get 24 people facing the same way at the exact same time, but you're sure guys can't just suck it up, play their matches and try again? Nah, didn't think so.

Destined, on 19 November 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Sorry, but harassment is a no-no.

Especially sexual. Good call.

[Turist0AT]

As an outsider, i see such an awsome comunity, consiting of great ppl(you guys) and i cant help too feel that PGI hasnt deserved you guys. And they dont treat you well either.

Sorry for the off topic.

[Roadbeer]

So much fail in a single OP

Doesn't even deserve Cake

[ApolloKaras]

Technoviking, on 19 November 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I know how hard it is to get 24 people facing the same way at the exact same time, but you're sure guys can't just suck it up, play their matches and try again? Nah, didn't think so.

How can you ask a question then answer it for me? We have mad a few videos already, we know. If you read the post Bandit tells you why you are having a difficult time.

[Randalf Yorgen]

If it's a tournament then make allowances for how thigns are at this time, instead of trying to get it done in 1 weekend stretch it over 4. You are voicing what we all would like to see and be able to do but cannot. Killing yourself because you didn't get the match you wanted is not acceptable no matter how you cut the mustard because you DID get a match and the other team is there to play. If things are so intollerable and you want to send a message to PGI, then stop playing, stop spending money on MC and leave the forums. There are e-mail addresses you can send nicely worded letters to to explain what's going on and leave it at that. As a phoenix founder you should know better than to suggest Harrasment and ridicule as a method of getting anyone to do anything you would like them too. Instead I would suggest you start an online petition to get PGI to make the changes you want and then link it here in the forums and Chat it up during your drops. if you were to get 30k people to sign it you bet PGI would be listening.

The best way you could have gotten your point across and would have been constructive doing it would have been to ask for an Arena set up to stop gap the space until the meta and CW games are brought on line. Forum a team and invite the captain of a different team to meet you on Alpine peaks for a no time limit game. Something like that wouldn't be to dificult to code, just the map selector, team size and the ability to invite the other team. Suggesting an invasive attack on the Devs is the lowest and makes me loose any respect I might have had for you.

[TheDeckardCain]

Randalf Yorgen, on 19 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

If it's a tournament then make allowances for how thigns are at this time, instead of trying to get it done in 1 weekend stretch it over 4. You are voicing what we all would like to see and be able to do but cannot. Killing yourself because you didn't get the match you wanted is not acceptable no matter how you cut the mustard because you DID get a match and the other team is there to play. If things are so intollerable and you want to send a message to PGI, then stop playing, stop spending money on MC and leave the forums. There are e-mail addresses you can send nicely worded letters to to explain what's going on and leave it at that. As a phoenix founder you should know better than to suggest Harrasment and ridicule as a method of getting anyone to do anything you would like them too. Instead I would suggest you start an online petition to get PGI to make the changes you want and then link it here in the forums and Chat it up during your drops. if you were to get 30k people to sign it you bet PGI would be listening.

The best way you could have gotten your point across and would have been constructive doing it would have been to ask for an Arena set up to stop gap the space until the meta and CW games are brought on line. Forum a team and invite the captain of a different team to meet you on Alpine peaks for a no time limit game. Something like that wouldn't be to dificult to code, just the map selector, team size and the ability to invite the other team. Suggesting an invasive attack on the Devs is the lowest and makes me loose any respect I might have had for you.

Either you have never played in a tournament or you didn't read.... I cannot recall ever seeing Temps in a tournament drop. Actually we thrash them for not coming on.


You say "Harrasment and ridicule"

In reference to this part? "Encourage, Harrass, Annoy"

LOL Harass: to annoy or bother (someone) in a constant or repeated way

http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/harass

Edited by TheDeckardCain, 19 November 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Banditman]

As I said in my OP, my team has no horse in this race. We don't play in the tournaments and leagues, for the simple fact that PGI does such a poor job of supporting those who try.

I find it utterly amazing and ridiculously disappointing that this post was moved to a location to die. It just shows me once again how poorly PGI understands their community, and how quick they are to marginalize and ignore those folks who try to point out problems.

I find nothing "off topic" about this conversation. It's an important and hot topic in the community right now, and it deserves to be treated as such, and not with a somewhat pedantic remark by a moderator followed by a quick burial.

[CeeKay Boques]

Saxie, on 19 November 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

How can you ask a question then answer it for me? We have mad a few videos already, we know. If you read the post Bandit tells you why you are having a difficult time.

I don't think much is more important than the 12v12ers having the game built around them. Anyone who loves this game will end up there.

I just think it stinks and you'll have to suck it up, nothing is going to derail the CW/2.0 train, which will hopefully have private matches built in, as they said it would.

Banditman, on 19 November 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

I find nothing "off topic" about this conversation. It's an important and hot topic in the community right now, and it deserves to be treated as such, and not with a somewhat pedantic remark by a moderator followed by a quick burial.

Its really the most important conversation... though it will go nowhere. MekTek, and all the other groups keeping MW4 and 3 and MWLL alive on life support were all built around these leagues, with these players. This is the rock you build your house on, all others are sand.

[Heffay]

Banditman, on 19 November 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

As I said in my OP, my team has no horse in this race. We don't play in the tournaments and leagues, for the simple fact that PGI does such a poor job of supporting those who try.

I find it utterly amazing and ridiculously disappointing that this post was moved to a location to die. It just shows me once again how poorly PGI understands their community, and how quick they are to marginalize and ignore those folks who try to point out problems.

I find nothing "off topic" about this conversation. It's an important and hot topic in the community right now, and it deserves to be treated as such, and not with a somewhat pedantic remark by a moderator followed by a quick burial.

The premise that PGI is unfairly picking on the leagues is ridiculous, and K-town is actually better than this thread deserves.

If you fail a sync drop, play it out with the other team. Guess what; the other 12 man you were trying to sync drop ALSO got another match to play. All you're doing is screwing over 24 other people who just want to do some 12 mans.

It also says a bit about the 12 man queues if sync drops aren't a reliable way to face your opponent. Guess the 12 man queues aren't as dead as some people would like you to think!

[Banditman]

Randalf Yorgen, on 19 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Clearly, you're not a tournament player, neither am I. However, I do know those guys and I understand their pain, you clearly do not.

We kept running into a team last night, and this is just one of many, many, many examples, who were trying to get a best of five tournament drop done. That's all they wanted to do. Two hours later, they were still dropping, having managed to match up only twice with their intended partner.

Not acceptable.

You see, what PGI has done by suddenly deciding they needed to "enforce" this, is they've crippled those competitions completely. Instead of being able to try for the sync every three minutes or so, you've now stretched their sync attempts out to 10+ minutes per attempt. Instead of taking an hour or so to get their matches complete, it's now taking them three times as long.

Is that treating them well? Is that fair? I don't think it is. I suspect that if you were honest about it, you'd say it wasn't either. PGI is not treating the majority of the players in this arena fairly.

Up until recently, none of this was a problem. It simply was. Now, PGI has decided that they want to make a drastic change in how they enforce their "rules". I think that is a big problem, and one worthy of more than an "off topic" discussion.

[Heffay]

Banditman, on 19 November 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Clearly, you're not a tournament player, neither am I. However, I do know those guys and I understand their pain, you clearly do not.

I've done my fair share of 12 man sync drops. I've been in my fair share of 12 mans that ran across a suiciding 12 man. Play the game out.

[Santanico Pandamonium]

I am curious to ask... How many units regularly participate in the 12man que, that DON'T participate in these "sync dropping tournaments"? I challenge you to sound off.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Banditman, on 19 November 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Clearly, you're not a tournament player, neither am I. However, I do know those guys and I understand their pain, you clearly do not.

We kept running into a team last night, and this is just one of many, many, many examples, who were trying to get a best of five tournament drop done. That's all they wanted to do. Two hours later, they were still dropping, having managed to match up only twice with their intended partner.

Not acceptable.

You see, what PGI has done by suddenly deciding they needed to "enforce" this, is they've crippled those competitions completely. Instead of being able to try for the sync every three minutes or so, you've now stretched their sync attempts out to 10+ minutes per attempt. Instead of taking an hour or so to get their matches complete, it's now taking them three times as long.

Is that treating them well? Is that fair? I don't think it is. I suspect that if you were honest about it, you'd say it wasn't either. PGI is not treating the majority of the players in this arena fairly.

Up until recently, none of this was a problem. It simply was. Now, PGI has decided that they want to make a drastic change in how they enforce their "rules". I think that is a big problem, and one worthy of more than an "off topic" discussion.

No I'm not an elitest jerk, I play the matches I'm given, even if it means I end up in an Atlas on Terra Therma. I don't care who you end up against in the drops even if it's not the people you were looking for they are still people looking for a game. Your self-centered Entitled Attitude shines bright and clear in your posts in this thread and perhaps PGI should monitor al 12 man drops closely from now on. Any team that suicides or team kills themselves out of a match should recieve an instant ban (as per the TOS) and if those players don't come back, it's no great loss.

I play what I am given and do the best I can in any situation, sometimes the mountain falls on my head sometimes I fly to close to the sun but every once in a while I pull off a really great show. You suggest that If I am Honest about this situation that you are going through I would agree with you but I don't. My Faction has tried to do things like what you are doing as well and we worked out that sometimes it's just going to take you 20 times longer to get what you want done because the tools just don't exists but if you're very patient you can get it done. I'm surprised you didn't drag ELO into this saying that once one team beat the other twice in a row the losing team dropped into a different Elo Bracket but then again I'm not surprised, after all it's all about what you want isn't it. That's why you tried to get people to antagonize and Haras the devs directly, just so you could get what you wanted.

It is you who don't understand a thing, I know the 12 man situation just fine but what you are suffering now isn't just something that affects you little 12 mans, it affects the whole game and it's time for you to stick your head up out of the sand and joint he rest of us or just quit the game because we don't have time for your tantrums.

[Heffay]

Santanico Pandamonium, on 19 November 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I am curious to ask... How many units regularly participate in the 12man que, that DON'T participate in these "sync dropping tournaments"? I challenge you to sound off.

Challenge? What kind of a challenge? Muskets at dawn? Fisticuffs? Playing the dozen?

[Roadbeer]

So much douche

in so few posts.