216 replies to this topic

[Diego Angelus]

DaZur, on 21 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

No offense but you're thinking too myopically...

A poptarts tactic is linear and static. If you (and or your teammates) are not seeking cover, attempting to flank or pushing enmass on the poptart, you are allowing the poptart to dictate the terms of the engagement.

Obviously there will be situations where no matter what you do, that poptart is going to win out... That said, their success is fleeting as you learn to recognize their limitations and know when and how to counter.

Oh, and just for clarity... There is zero difference between a fresh-meat poptart and and "competitive" poptart save teammates patting them on their backs telling them how awesome they are.

poptarting is the lowest form of tactical engagement, requiring the least amount of skill and is not deserving of any sort of accolades IMHO.

I stopped reading after static and linear

[DaZur]

Diego Angelus, on 21 November 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

I stopped reading after static and linear

Answer is: "Reason why you struggle with poptarts?"

If you don't think hulling down behind topology, jetting up vertically, firing a shot, land, recharge & repeat is not static and linear... I don't know what to tell you...

[Almond Brown]

DaZur, on 21 November 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Then don't engage that mech!!! There are typically at least 4 other mechs that do not have tactical advantage that you can engage with on equal or advantageous terms...

You reduce the opposing force, THEN several of you push on the poptart in force...

This kills me... everyone wants to just Leroy rush everything without stopping to problem-solve a solution.... and surprisingly enough, most of the time it involves more than just a single player...

The act of Pop-Tarting is not the real danger, it is, like when a good LRM Missile user sees you engaged with another enemy and then has little issue with your return fire and pounds your *** to dust while you're already in defense of your Mech with another enemy. If the Tart had to stand in the open, a top their perch, while blasting the engaged enemy, then perhaps the engaged enemies friends could better assist with said popptart suppression.

It is interesting that 99% of all Chassis have Energy points, 71% have Missile points, 49% have Ballistics while only 32% get JJ's.

Given that Ballistics are the weapon of choice now, and only 32% of chassis get JJ's, it is not a wonder at all why we see the same Ballistic based Poptarts all the time. And here we are told there is unlimited MechLab min maxing allowed.... LOL ! Indeed.

[ColourfulConfetti]

DaZur, on 21 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

No offense but you're thinking too myopically...

A poptarts tactic is linear and static. If you (and or your teammates) are not seeking cover, attempting to flank or pushing enmass on the poptart, you are allowing the poptart to dictate the terms of the engagement.

Obviously there will be situations where no matter what you do, that poptart is going to win out... That said, their success is fleeting as you learn to recognize their limitations and know when and how to counter.

Oh, and just for clarity... There is zero difference between a fresh-meat poptart and and "competitive" poptart save teammates patting them on their backs telling them how awesome they are.

poptarting is the lowest form of tactical engagement, requiring the least amount of skill and is not deserving of any sort of accolades IMHO.

Well there's nothing I can do if my team is not taking cover, I can fend for myself well enough, but then this argument boils down to whether voice chat needs to be in the game which of course would help, but I have not heard so much as a peep from PGI about it.
I think there is a considerable difference between a standard poptart, (not very threatening by themselves) and a poptart from somewhere like Smoke Jaguar or DV8 (spends less time in air, more likely to get accurate CT hits, relocates often, doesn't jump jet only vertically) It takes skill I think, but becoming skillful with it, doubles your team contribution it seems.
That is how I feel about it anyway. I feel the game should be balanced in a way were any weapon, chassis, type of mech can be used to great extent competitively, and it seems most competitive teams have high amounts of poptarts but not much else.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 21 November 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Almond Brown]

DaZur, on 21 November 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Answer is: "Reason why you struggle with poptarts?"

If you don't think hulling down behind topology, jetting up vertically, firing a shot, land, recharge & repeat is not static and linear... I don't know what to tell you...

That is what the BAD Poptarts do DaZur. Like a good missile boat, moving around and staying active makes things bad, especially when already engaged.

[Diego Angelus]

DaZur, on 21 November 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

Answer is: "Reason why you struggle with poptarts?"

If you don't think hulling down behind topology, jetting up vertically, firing a shot, land, recharge & repeat is not static and linear... I don't know what to tell you...

I don't struggle at least not in pugs I didn't made this thread to cry about something like that.... Well there is more to it then just jumping and falling. Its like saying pulling the trigger is easy so shooting precisely is easy.

[Mystere]

PalmaRoma, on 21 November 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

Well there's nothing I can do if my team is not taking cover ...

Is it safe to conclude then that the biggest problems are teamwork and tactics (or rather the horrible lack of both) and not poptarts?

[C E Dwyer]

Bront, on 19 November 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

This! Not to mention you can't change your vector in the air and jumping backwards is harder now.

It's possible they need to adjust JJ's vertical lift so 1 JJ isn't as effective as it is. I've heard rumors that there was an error where a single JJ was as effective as full JJs, but I have not seen any evidence of this myself.

hmm jumps jets don't need nerfs at all, this is just the kind of thing you expect from jealous stalker and atlas pilots, and the Lurm boaters,

I play both grounded and jumping mech and the one tonne limit is fiction as there are three weights of JJ half tonne for mediums and lights 1 tonne for heavies and 2 tonnes for assaults.

What are jump jets good for better terrean movement, jump brawling

Sniping.... well if the person its aiming at is dump enough to stay in the same spot then well honestly the target gets what they deserve, so only other snipers and lurm boats should be bothered about jump sniping as a sensible brawler uses cover gets to charge distance and then goes for it..

jump brawling well yup its there but it can make a stalker or atlas or a highlanders where the pilots been dumb and removed all the jump jets, but a half way skilled pilot is going to know they'll jump get the bang in before it goes skywards, it they turn while its in the air..

sorry but this smacks of its not fair, I can't hit jumping mechs, so I want them to be nerfed so less people use them.

[Diego Angelus]

Mystere, on 21 November 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Is it safe to conclude then that the biggest problems are teamwork and tactics (or rather the horrible lack of both) and not poptarts?

Problem is high pinpoint alpha and coordinated teamwork use it to max so mechs fall like you are playing call of duty and not mechwarrior game

[ColourfulConfetti]

Mystere, on 21 November 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Is it safe to conclude then that the biggest problems are teamwork and tactics (or rather the horrible lack of both) and not poptarts?

Well its a big part, yes, but countering poptarts even with team coordination can still be a challenge, because hes defended by his whole team, so your walking on eggshells to make sure he doesn't have a shot at any of your team, or, your trying to distract him so you can take out other mechs ultimately trying to get to the pop tart himself, It's weird to consider a catahprcat 3d or highlander being more threatening than an atlas, but apparently that's just how powerful jumpjets are with pinpoint weapons. That you have to get your whole team to get cover or to attempt distracting him and flanking him with a whole lance of lights, then eventually moving in and hoping you can out brawl the enemy. Thats alot of work to kill a 1-2 poptarts. I'm gonna guess that's why most high end competitive teams have at least half the team as highlanders and cataphracts.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 21 November 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Mystere]

Diego Angelus, on 21 November 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Problem is high pinpoint alpha and coordinated teamwork use it to max so mechs fall like you are playing call of duty and not mechwarrior game

Hmm, secondary problems seem to be:

• People assume that those who call them out on their inability to deal with poptarts play COD.
  
• MWO has too many "monkey see, monkey do" players who go the lazy route by copying the current "meta" (OMFG! I really hate that word!) instead of formulating their own sets of tactics to counter it.
  
  • Suggestion 1 - Don't emulate the British who used big, fat, and slow Matilda II tanks to rush entrenched 8.8cm Flak 37s supported by Panzerkampfwagen VI Tigers.
    
  • Suggestion 2 - Don't emulate the British who sent light cavalry to frontally assault the far end of a valley that contained artillery batteries on three sides.

Edited by Mystere, 21 November 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[DaZur]

PalmaRoma, on 21 November 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

I feel the game should be balanced in a way were any weapon, chassis, type of mech can be used to great extent competitively, and it seems most competitive teams have high amounts of poptarts but not much else.

The answer to "why" is because it's inherently a low-risk / high reward tactic. There are maybe a couple dozen top-tier jump snipers whom I would qualify as "tide- turners"... The rest are at best posers who mimic them and benefit from the stigma associated with the tactic.

Almond Brown, on 21 November 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

That is what the BAD Poptarts do DaZur. Like a good missile boat, moving around and staying active makes things bad, especially when already engaged.

Alright I will capitulate that there are two class poptarts: a.) Jump snipers (the good ones) and b.) posers-on-pogo sticks.

Diego Angelus, on 21 November 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Its like saying pulling the trigger is easy so shooting precisely is easy.

As noted to AB above... there are two type of jump-snipers and one is absolutely skilless and another obviously requires some level of mastery.

Diego Angelus, on 21 November 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Problem is high pinpoint alpha and coordinated teamwork use it to max so mechs fall like you are playing call of duty and not mechwarrior game

It's just a tactic... It doesn't make them Superman. Half of your statement is 100% correct though in that a poptart working with a coordinated team doubles their effectiveness. But that's not an argument better raised in a "teamwork and comms is OP" discussion than a JJ balancing discussion.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

Alright I will capitulate that there are two class poptarts: a.) Jump snipers (the good ones) and b.) posers-on-pogo sticks.

Did someone say my name? Wait, I mean, I'm the first one. Yeah yeah! Honestly, I'm really good in my Victor and I do decently well in my BJ-1 (PPC w/ UAC5). For the life of me, though, I haven't been able to crack the Da Vinci Code that is the CTF-3D. I know that there is something there, I just can't put my finger on how to do it right. I hate the Phract with a passion. GRR!!

Edited by Trauglodyte, 21 November 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[Greyboots]

Diego Angelus, on 19 November 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

I Have been thinking why jump jets don't have any drawback all you need is one ton to use it and even if you max it out its still light/takes little crit slots. So I was thinking that JJs should weight more,take more slots or create heat. Problem i noticed is that you don't gain anything from drooping JJs since they don't have drawback. I would expect JJs mech to trade that ability for firepower but in this game that is not true.

What are your thoughts on this ?

My thoughts are you haven't actually played a jumpjet mech.

Jumpjets cost .5 ton per jumpjet.
Jumpjets cost 1 critical slot.
Jumpjets create heat in use

At the very least, a pair of jumpjets costs you one ton of ammo or one heat sink just in weight.

Quote

I would expect JJs mech to trade that ability for firepower but in this game that is not true.

So leaving every other apsect aside, this becomes untrue at the very first port of call.

They cost you tonnage - at the very least the weight of 2 jump jets costs you one heat sink or one ton of ammo - they cost you firepower. 4 JJ is 2 tons and that's a fair bit of armour, engine size or weapon weight.
They cost you heat and heat is regenerating ammo - they cost you firepower.
They frequently cost you weapon hardpoints - they potentially cost you firepower unless your hard points are full and you need to find another way to spend weight. As an example, go to the mechlab and look at a BJ-1X (8 energy hardpoints) Vs a BJ-3 (6 energy hardpoints, 4 JJ hardpoints)..
They cost you critical slots - they can effect the extent to which you can afford heat sinks, Ferro, Endosteel, etc.

Sorry, you're just not correct in your assumptions.

That aside: I understand that many people aren't happy with "pop tarting" and will see jump jet changes as a gateway to stop it. My opinion? People need to learn to deal with it. It's one of the very few aspects to MWO that prevents all-AC mechs from being the only viable choice.

It bypasses the range + sustained fire + DPS triumverate of power by taking away the sustained fire option. PPCs and ERPPCs have successfully been changed so they aren't any real threat and now people will move onto other ways of doing the same.

Pop Tarting makes holes in mechs at range. This is making small, fast mechs still viable to exploit those holes by threading their way through enemy lines to exploit those holes. It's also stoppung all AC mechs from just advancing in a huge wall of steel across open ground.

I don't think it's coincidence that the only 2 real counters to all AC firepower, pop-tarting and LRMs, are the 2 biggest sources of contention in MWO discussions. These heavy, sustained DPS mechs need more counters before they become the only thing worth playing, not less.

Voted to leave jump jets alone.

[XX Sulla XX]

They are fine the way they are. Spend the time fixing things that need fixed.

[Diego Angelus]

Greyboots, on 21 November 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I find that drawback negligible actually all I do is pilot mechs with JJs my BJ would be piece of C without JJ they let me put shoots into mechs without taking damage. All it takes to equip JJ is 1 ton and 1 slot while mounting all weapons I need, can go to 3JJ without sacrificing anything max armor, max DHS endo. You won't have any problems doing same on assault they won't even feel those 2 tons and slot wouldn't be used anyway so no loss there.

Difference between 1X and BJ 3 is that it can mount big engine and lacks JJs but since that engine is heavier good luck using all slots and you end up with mech that is faster but losses JJs and brings same fire power so take your pick I would take JJs any day.

[Corvus Antaka]

Prezimonto, on 20 November 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

In closed beta through the first several months of open beta 1 JJ was as effective as multiple JJ. It is no longer the case. However, I feel that without the full complement of JJ Jump turning should be much more difficult/slow.

Sort of. Reality is that in terms of actual battle value 1 jumpjet is still plenty. I never use more than 2 jumpjets, and 1 is enough to get me everywhere i need to go that matters during a battle.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

JJ's generate heat

[SniperCon]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 21 November 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

JJ's generate heat

So do gauss rifles.

[ShortBusBully]

Ok PGI needs a new forum category. Label it- Think tank for all the people that have nothing else to do but sit around and think of {Scrap} to fix that isn't broken- How many people you think will visit it?