91 replies to this topic

[infinite xaer0]

insta-death legging is terribly lame, and reeks of, "lazy game design".. I would prefer to see a game where the only way that legging can kill you is from the fall. Otherwise, even if you get both your legs blow clean off, you shouldn't die. However, if you are stuck in a situation where you're mobility killed, the game shouldn't punish you for ejecting, especially if you can respawn and continue the match.

[lyonn]

all your legs belong to me

I've been known to take the arms, legs Left and right torso of legging whiners leaving them gimp

/end

[pursang]

lyonn, on 31 October 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

all your legs belong to me

I've been known to take the arms, legs Left and right torso of legging whiners leaving them gimp

/end

Someone after my own heart!

It's funny legging some big shot in an assault and seeing them limp around at twently clicks trying not to be useless.

Ahhh, good times good times.

[Tyra]

..I remember some epic come backs thanks to lucky rolls after losing one or both legs in the tabletop game...

[Hayden]

Ugh, legging is such a difficult problem. Of all the posts I've read, I think I agree most with below: fall over, maybe then the 'mech can into some kind of sitting position so that it can still torso twist to hit enemies? Similar to MW2? Maybe still maneuverable with Torso jump jets? Or is that too much?

pbiggz, on 31 October 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

In mechwarrior 4 if you destroyed the leg, the battlemech limped at half speed, destroying the second one destroyed it, your thinking of 3, where the legging was the end, and this was likely due to simple game engine limitations.

I would expect something similar to mechwarrior living legends, where getting legged throws you onto the ground, giving you the choice to either fight on to the bitter end, firing at what you can, or ejecting.

[Dsi1]

Falling over into a sitting position (after total destruction of a leg, should still limp with heavy damage) makes a lot of sense imo.

Edited by dsi1, 31 October 2011 - 05:41 PM.

[Steelbarrage]

Understand that in MWLL due to limitations you usually fall face first into terrain.
If the engine the devs use allow for a mech to not clip into the ground or at least maneuver into a firing position legging will not be annoying.
Do not **** after a MWLL implementation as it is extremely annoying to lose a perfectly good mech and not fire back.
If the devs here can do it right all power to them.

Edit: Hahahaha, I said l u s t and it got censored.
Please lighten up on the filter guys.

Edited by steelbarrage, 31 October 2011 - 05:49 PM.

[Dsi1]

Yeah the MWLL implementation isn't perfect, but falling into a sitting position every time sounds like a great compromise.

[Helmer]

amechwarrior beat me to it.

Agreed that if people maxed out ammo on their legs, It's almost as difficult as taking out RT/LT/CT . If you're looking for Salvage, Legging is a way to go. If you NEED to defeat that opponent and get them out of the fight, go for CT.


I like the limited mobility after the first leg loses structure with possible stumble/fall.

[topgun505]

You need to think outside the box.

What has changed between MW4 and today? The power of the personal pc has expanded drastically since then. 64bit processing, multiple CPU cores, 1GB+ RAM on video cards ... not to mention 8GB+ RAM in a system being relatively common (at least in gaming rigs).

In short our computers can handle so much more. So ... what does this mean for us?

You are all treating a leg as A SINGLE PIECE/STRUCTURE of the mech. The reason why legging works was that a ) It killed your target outright (or immobilized them to make them a subsequent easy kill). and b ) It was a large target which usually had about the same amount of armor or less than the CT and thus was a faster target to destroy.

But.

Why treat the leg, or indeed, ANY section of the mech as a single structure? We are all playing games nowdays with structures/objects composed of huge numbers of polygons. So why should a leg (or really, any large body portion) remain a single piece with a single damage value?? Why not break the leg up into 8 sections each ... or possibly more? For example, the front portion of the leg below the knee is one, the inside side of the leg below the knee is another, the backside below the knee is another. Etc. The same applies to above the knee. Every section has its own armor rating (which probably you would not be able to see a damage readout of an opposing mechs armor) which must be blown through before hitting the internals. No longer do you have a large leg as a target and you can hit it anywhere between the toe and the hip and it all counts towards the damage value of the entire limb. Break it up. If you want to dish out damage to a specific area of a mech you have to continually hit the SAME spot on the mech ... otherwise you are just hitting the fresh armor of a different section on the target.

This will make mechs in general more hardy and make you feel like you are really working to get your kill (cause you WILL be). And will make tactics such as legging difficult or impossible to do.

Edited by topgun505, 31 October 2011 - 06:50 PM.

[Tyra]

topgun505, on 31 October 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

*snip*
This will make mechs in general more hardy and make you feel like you are really working to get your kill (cause you WILL be). And will make tactics such as legging difficult or impossible to do.

In the tabletop game, legs were generally designed around x number of armor and then internal structuer and then internal hard points (joints, servos, occasionally weapons and ammo). When you shot off all the armor or managed to pierce the armor, then you could damage the internal of the leg.

Depending on what was damaged (and how badly), the mech could be reduced to one leg, or partially working, or if you hit it hard enough (or hit explosive ammo) blown off completely.

THAT is what I would like to see in this game.

[topgun505]

I've played the board game since '94. I'm familiar. Bear one thing in mind. In the board game, aside from the target being immobile due to shutdown or pilot KO, and/or having Targeting Computer equipment ... you could NOT aim at a specific body section.

In a computer game you can (or at least, you can try) ... but ... generally speaking if the target is large enough then any pilot worth his salt will be able to hit that same section over and over. This is why I propose doing this departure from the board game in order to mitigate this difference. In the board game you are forced to deal with random hit locations, that is why it doesn't work when directly translated to the computer game ... you lose a lot of that random probability for damage distribution.

tyra, on 31 October 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

In the tabletop game, legs were generally designed around x number of armor and then internal structuer and then internal hard points (joints, servos, occasionally weapons and ammo). When you shot off all the armor or managed to pierce the armor, then you could damage the internal of the leg.

Depending on what was damaged (and how badly), the mech could be reduced to one leg, or partially working, or if you hit it hard enough (or hit explosive ammo) blown off completely.

THAT is what I would like to see in this game.

[Tyra]

topgun505, on 31 October 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:

I've played the board game since '94. I'm familiar. Bear one thing in mind. In the board game, aside from the target being immobile due to shutdown or pilot KO, and/or having Targeting Computer equipment ... you could NOT aim at a specific body section.

In a computer game you can (or at least, you can try) ... but ... generally speaking if the target is large enough then any pilot worth his salt will be able to hit that same section over and over. This is why I propose doing this departure from the board game in order to mitigate this difference. In the board game you are forced to deal with random hit locations, that is why it doesn't work when directly translated to the computer game ... you lose a lot of that random probability for damage distribution.

We aimed at specific body parts all the time. You just gained +1 or +2 depending on what you were aiming at. That may have just been our house rules but I know Megamek allowed the same thing. I have distinct memories of losing part of my arm in some battles. XD And one of my buddies loved the head shot.

So it doesn't have to be random.

Edited by tyra, 31 October 2011 - 07:08 PM.

[topgun505]

Yes .. .you were house ruling.

As for Megamek ... unless there is some house rule ability I am not aware of, it will not allow you to aim at a section unless under the same conditions I mentioned earlier. So I stand behind my earlier statements.

Anyone who has played Battletech for any length of time ... sooner or later you have a game where you have a mech which hadn't died until literally every single last point of armor ... front and back ... was blown off, along with half of all the internal components. The dice were just feeling random and it allowed that poor mech to survive so much longer than it had any right to live. I'm sure we've all seen that happen.

In the computer game you generally won't ever see that happen since you don't have the high-random element. I'm just trying to make sure pilots don't end up passing by all kinds of destroyed mechs with nothing wrong with them but missing legs. That definitely WON'T make the game any fun.

[The1WithTheGun]

topgun505, on 31 October 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:

In the board game you are forced to deal with random hit locations, that is why it doesn't work when directly translated to the computer game ... you lose a lot of that random probability for damage distribution.

Not so. This might not be a simple "point and shoot" FPS. There might still be things like to-hit rolls, crit rolls and/or damage allocation rolls handled server-side. Personally, I think I'd prefer this, as it would prevent the cheating/hacks on the client side that plague many FPS games.

[machine]

Stack armor on one leg. Use none on the other. Face armored leg at a opponents then clan gauss the opponent in the leg with my scat Hehehehe

[Skulldugg3ry]

I'm looking for simulation all the way. I think having multiple (i.e. many) structures in the leg to damage, with multiple hits to the very same area before damage (gradual slowing) occurs would be the way to go. Then you can damage the internals and blow it off. But, it should be difficult. Legging would then not be the easy win, but the difficult win (moving thin legs are harder to hit in the same place twice) and perhaps something to strive for. With the ability to clad them in leg armor, and having to take multiple hits to the same small area should make them about as difficult to destroy as parts of center mass.

If you lose a leg, of course you fall - but then you should be able to twist around on the ground and continue the fight - wouldn't that be a sight! To a damaged opponent, even a grounded twisting, writhing weapon of mass destruction is something to beware. Perhaps you could even stand and hop back to base - gyro design in the 31st century should be capable of this, no?

[Roh]

Im against randomly exploding. Makes no sense. Slow down or even forced to stand stationary would be satisfactory.

But... If the engine can do it I most once to see the flopping and rolling on the ground trying to take the dirty punks with you before bailing if at all possible.

If I can't achieve victory I'll take any shot at forcing a draw I can get.

[topgun505]

Yes Aturon that was what I was aiming at (no pun intended). And yes you can stand while missing a leg in CBT (though it is fairly difficult and very easy to fall again, as you would expect).

[Baltes]

*** knows i hate getting legged, but from a tactical standpoint, it's a great thing to target
nothing worse than piloting a legged anni