167 replies to this topic

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

JoJoxy, on 24 November 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

You're kidding me? It was my point that we don't know and continue to not know. Because else exploiting was possible.

PGI's Elo calculcation, in case you hadn't seen it before: http://mwomercs.com/...65#entry1626065

[Joseph Mallan]

Almeras, on 22 November 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

I'm finding the 4man queue horrid the MM seems to feed me endlessly to the ggclose ultra tryhard 4mans.

It seems as long as I'm grouped with anyone else I'll be thrown into the grinder for these guys to get a game. I know I'm probably close to some of them in ELO but I don't always wish to play as a tryhard (I'd rather keep that for the 12mans than trolling pugs)

The effect that's happening is I can't group if I want to level a mech or take anything non heavy/assault meta. If I join a group which has green pilots or casual mechs the MM will serve them to the Highlander/Jager/Cata rolf ggclose train and they'll be smashed until they decided to call it a night. It means I can't just grab a pick up game with friends I've play with for over a year and a half.

The result effect is I'm now disaffected with the 4man queue I loath playing it. I stick to the 12man drops doesn't feel as predetermined outcome. But 12mans don't happen every night so I'm forced to play less.

I'd rather just have 100% random matches balanced on tonnage (while ring fencing the under 25game accounts into their own pool) for the 4man queue it means in any given night you get a mix of everyone at some point. Than the artificial balancing currently with seems not to take into account all the factors that make a balanced match just that X has to be matched with Y(or whatever is next closest)

about 1 in 3 or one in 4 matches end in a crushing to my perception. I play both 4 man an PUG. If you are playing the game for "just a few" matches, then winning and losing should no be in influence on how fun the game is. I am finding that about half the time I lose I am in the top half of damage and kills for my side. That is good enough if I am just looking to blow some steam(ie Have fun).

[Randalf Yorgen]

If you always group with randoms then yes I can see issues with ELO and leveling new mechs. I have a group of about 20 different people I drop with in 4 mans (not all at once, don't be silly, this isn't Timelord Tech, Groups are not bigger on the inside) Although I may not perform as well as I can when i am in one of my prefered mechs I do still get to drop with great people who help with the learning curve. Once in group I always ask if they are ok with me levling a mech and if they say no, it's not a big deal, I'll ask what they want me to bring, no biggy. If they say sure, usually they ask what I an in and what my loadout is and we spend a few minutes talking and maybe tweeking the build slightly. it might take 15-20 matches (a couple of nights maybe) but before too long I'm getting a few kills and my damage is decent (300-600 rng). Usually there are no, or very few, OGM Matches so it seems to me that ELO isn't really affected.

I also find that there are huge differences when dropping in group and dropping Solo. when Solo, don't be the guy in the lead, when in group talk about Bacon and don't get to far away from the rest of the group. Really it's all about supporting each other, even if you are in a brand new mech to you, once you get the weapons groups sorted out, if you do your best to stick with the rest of the blob, you can be quite effective. the Chat windo is ok but if you are actually grouped with other players, IE friends, I would strongly suggest the use of a VOIP. yea, now the haters are going to hate but if you do have a solid group that you can count on to be able to group with and drop with regularly then VOIP is a great way to enhance your gameplay experience.

[Iskareot]

Randalf Yorgen, on 25 November 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

If you always group with randoms then yes I can see issues with ELO and leveling new mechs. I have a group of about 20 different people I drop with in 4 mans (not all at once, don't be silly, this isn't Timelord Tech, Groups are not bigger on the inside) Although I may not perform as well as I can when i am in one of my prefered mechs I do still get to drop with great people who help with the learning curve. Once in group I always ask if they are ok with me levling a mech and if they say no, it's not a big deal, I'll ask what they want me to bring, no biggy. If they say sure, usually they ask what I an in and what my loadout is and we spend a few minutes talking and maybe tweeking the build slightly. it might take 15-20 matches (a couple of nights maybe) but before too long I'm getting a few kills and my damage is decent (300-600 rng). Usually there are no, or very few, OGM Matches so it seems to me that ELO isn't really affected.

I also find that there are huge differences when dropping in group and dropping Solo. when Solo, don't be the guy in the lead, when in group talk about Bacon and don't get to far away from the rest of the group. Really it's all about supporting each other, even if you are in a brand new mech to you, once you get the weapons groups sorted out, if you do your best to stick with the rest of the blob, you can be quite effective. the Chat windo is ok but if you are actually grouped with other players, IE friends, I would strongly suggest the use of a VOIP. yea, now the haters are going to hate but if you do have a solid group that you can count on to be able to group with and drop with regularly then VOIP is a great way to enhance your gameplay experience.

And this is why we need to separate pugs from premade groups. Because not only is it imbalanced but it is not the same at all for either party in the way of fairness to basic game play. We need a lobby or choice somehow somewhere. Before we lose anymore people. When in a group you play smart.. pugs are unpredictable and unorganized overall and we all know it. Instead of worrying about it or taking away anyone's choice of game play they just need to offer choice. I want to do both but there is no need for both to be together. NOW THEN.. if you want to roll premade, you will have to wait for a full match but I am sure that can happen, may take a couple mins longer but it can happen. Pugs should be able to roll in a full pug group giving a better over all balance to it all. Because as it turns out... seeing one guy run in circles or the other guy running into a wall or one trying to jump jet up a hill he cant go up on for 20 mins is not exactly good to see when you have 2 premade 4 mans on you and your team taking you out fast. Unless we want to see the game empty come summer time.

Some things need to change.. because everyone here KNOWS that the population is dropping off and thats not a opinion but a fact. Sad...? Yes.. but it is happening and I can tell you people are getting discouraged for a few reasons... one.. the MC conversion and earning system needs to come back up to a better level. ELO system and MM needs a rethinking... and a choice for PUG or PREMADE so that a newer person can play on a bit more even grounds.

We better get something figured out because for everyone that has 100 bucks plus invested may be staring at his team mate more often in battle if we don't.

[Almeras]

What you've missed in my post is if I take a 4man say for fast mech training mostly pilots unfamiliar in those mechs. The MM will still pitch us up against another 4man in highlanders and our pugs will fill out the assault/heavy mech roll. The pugs so some extent are the side show, most of the time it'll be who's got the most tryhard 4man that's sway the games.

The matches will go something like this, the pugs we be unaware (even if we warn them) what they are walking into. We can try to back them up but we can't kill the the other 4man as quickly as they can kill our pugs. Its not the pugs fault because they've been had over as much as we have.

We always try to back up the pugs first thing that comes out of my mouth is 'see what the pugs are doing and back them up' but unless you are willing to be Assault/Heavy meat in the 12man the MM sees the elo as the same but in reality your fight the loosing end.

And to turn the tables I can take our better pilots out in 4man with our meta mechs and the story is reversed we'll win every match. The first words out of my mouth is "murder their pugs" (because that's what it is) it'll cripple the other 4man no matter how well they play. If their high ELO pilots are in lights that's even easier and blow for blow the law of averages falls in my favour. That's how I know the MM isn't seeing the full picture. But smashing pugs with overkill groups goes against the be the best but play to have fun that is at the core of our unit.

I have a family and a full time job I get the 2/3hr a day to play not always we can run 12mans some times I have odd 30mins to grab a game or 2 and it sucks to load in to level a mech and see the teams and know it'll be a loss because with a 150ton 4man against a 360ton tryharders.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I figure someday I will grow lame and lazy and want to push the easy button. Then I will get voip and join a team. Till then I will fight without crutches myself. Sure I lose a lot fighting the lame and lazy with their concentrated fire and fast tactics but I will not become dependent on my gang to look out for me. After 8000 matches pug only I have learned some things. Just not to give up and go with the crowd.

[Motroid]

Alistair Winter, on 24 November 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

And my point is that even if we did know, it be impossible to exploit. It's hard to exploit a ranking system based only on winning and losing, especially when you're being matched up with random opponents.

How would you exploit it?

If it's only based on winning and losing....what is the question then?
You seem to know how it works already.
I think JoJoxy is right. People ALWAYS find a way to exploit things. Especially in a free to play environment.
I think thats the reason why they don't provide details on the mechanic.
Someone mentioned group(ELO)behaviour, thats some neat point for exploiting if we had details....
It's like with every Online game: You have to protect the players from themselves. In this case with a lack of information.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 26 November 2013 - 03:37 AM, said:

I figure someday I will grow lame and lazy and want to push the easy button. Then I will get voip and join a team. Till then I will fight without crutches myself. Sure I lose a lot fighting the lame and lazy with their concentrated fire and fast tactics but I will not become dependent on my gang to look out for me. After 8000 matches pug only I have learned some things. Just not to give up and go with the crowd.

You really need to stop laying the blame at others feet Mud. First off, if you team up and your friends have a higher Elo than you, You may win more games, but your person contributions will be marginal at best. I drop with certain Lawmen and I am carried like dead weight (>200 damage, >2 kills, >3 Assists). Then I drop with other Lawmen and my Stats become (<400 Damage,<2 Kills, <4 Assists). So your inability to have a fun game may not be on the shoulders of Teams, but the Elo system working as intended. PUG or Teamed if I am matched with players of a higher Elo the outcome is Obvious.

[Lupin]

JoJoxy, on 24 November 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

For obvious reasons pgi cannot disclose how elo works exactly, because the second they do people will game and exploit the **** out of it.

I thought current exploit was 4 man groups? Does Sync dropping still work? God I hope not given how many times forums have pointed out this problem.

Seems a lot of player just looking for an edge or exploit all the time. And people wonder why REAL player numbers are down.

Edited by Lupin, 26 November 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lupin, on 26 November 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

I thought current exploit was 4 man groups? Does Sync dropping still work? God I hope not given how many times forums have pointed out this problem.

Seems a lot of player just looking for an edge or exploit all the time. And people wonder why REAL player numbers are down.

Its a PvP game. Players are always looking for an edge. If I get stomped by a Sync Drop, I look for the silver lining. Did I get any kills, assists or over 250 damage? Good game then!

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 November 2013 - 04:38 AM, said:

You really need to stop laying the blame at others feet Mud. First off, if you team up and your friends have a higher Elo than you, You may win more games, but your person contributions will be marginal at best. I drop with certain Lawmen and I am carried like dead weight (>200 damage, >2 kills, >3 Assists). Then I drop with other Lawmen and my Stats become (<400 Damage,<2 Kills, <4 Assists). So your inability to have a fun game may not be on the shoulders of Teams, but the Elo system working as intended. PUG or Teamed if I am matched with players of a higher Elo the outcome is Obvious.

Who said I am not having fun?

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 26 November 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Who said I am not having fun?

Once again, your tone, and vitriol against Teams leads me to believe you are unhappy playing the game. If it is not true, you can go the route I normally do, and laugh it off.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 November 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

Once again, your tone, and vitriol against Teams leads me to believe you are unhappy playing the game. If it is not true, you can go the route I normally do, and laugh it off.

Just pointing out what is obvious to a few. The majority of premades are no better than most pugs. The comms give them advantage. I see non stop posts ranking hard on pugs so I try to be the balance and rank on premades. They fully deserve it if the pugs do. I just rub many here the wrong way because I won't do something I feel is exploiting the misfortune of others and I like a fair fight. I would join a team if we were only fighting teams but that is far from the case. Might someday do 12 mans. I just wont stomp pugs in the meantime. Still having fun.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 26 November 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

Just pointing out what is obvious to a few. The majority of premades are no better than most pugs. The comms give them advantage. I see non stop posts ranking hard on pugs so I try to be the balance and rank on premades. They fully deserve it if the pugs do. I just rub many here the wrong way because I won't do something I feel is exploiting the misfortune of others and I like a fair fight. I would join a team if we were only fighting teams but that is far from the case. Might someday do 12 mans. I just wont stomp pugs in the meantime. Still having fun.

Dude... Touche', However, whether I PUG or Pre Made, I will continue to do my best to stomp both PUGs an Premades. After all that is the purpose of playing PvP. Kill the other guy before he kills you right!?!

[Stoicblitzer]

funny that I see the same complaints now that we had 4 months ago. let it die. go play something else.

[Joseph Mallan]

Stoicblitzer, on 26 November 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

funny that I see the same complaints now that we had 4 months ago. let it die. go play something else.

From what I read on other game forums you cannot escape the team/PUG bias. there isn't anywhere to go!

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 November 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

From what I read on other game forums you cannot escape the team/PUG bias. there isn't anywhere to go!

Just remember...no matter where you go, there you are!

[Joseph Mallan]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 26 November 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Just remember...no matter where you go, there you are!

Unless you go this Then you can actually be everywhere at once, so you are there!

[Iskareot]

There is a clear difference between being unhappy with the game and just wanting some balance to it. I love the game, sure most of my friends have now left because they feel it is a wreck as far as balance goes but I am and have spent the money and are trying to stick it out.

BUT.. a we see our population is already getting smaller and I know too may people left off my friends list because they feel the game has drop balance issues and the do not consider a imbalanced fight from the start to be a good thing.

[Almeras]

Can we put the PUG issue aside it wasn't the intention of this post.

That aside I just wanted to point out the MM will look for 4mans equal in ELO or the next best choice. The issues comes when the match maker cant find an equal ELO buddy for the 'tryharders' (groups who run meta 24/7 in the 4man queue). The the MM looks at me my ELO probably matches the 'tryharders' but the rest of my team might be made up of new recruits, a training drop or old MW4 buddies I'm trying to get to play this forces my group into a loosing match just to keep the 'tryharders' happy*.

This problem is then doubled because next round of drops the MM still cant find a ELO match for the 'tryharders' it sees my group again and put us back with them. (My record is 8 consecutive matches against the same 'tryharder' pre-made).

The problem is then trebled if any or all of the following happen: Most of us are in light or medium, levelling a new mech/variant, a player whose still green, a small map.

The result is: We either have to drop into meta, guys start leaving group, we enjoy a massive loosing streak.

My friend AmenIV cant testify seeing this happen. His Unit were dropping Meta/assault, I was taking our light pilots out in their 2nd training session (myself, regular light pilot, 2 green pilots). We got his group 2 times in a row I'm sure the MM saw us as even teams but we'd both agree the team I was on would have to work 20x as hard to make a win.

*The super high ELO players couldn't get games so the dev's tweaked it to expand the allowed ELO gap to the next closes ELO group thus serving up mixed elo groups to them.

Edited by Almeras, 27 November 2013 - 10:44 AM.