21 replies to this topic

[Greyboots]

The loading screen tells me I have a 40 ish % chance to do one critical hit (25% for one then lesser amounts for 2 and 3).

How does this work for lasers?

If I rake across the open back of an enemy mech do I get:

• 1 chance at a critical for each "over time" application of damage per laser?
  
• 1 chance for a critical hit for each location damaged per laser?
  
• 1 chance for the first location hit per laser
  
• Other?

[Durant Carlyle]

I don't know that there's been an official answer to this.

However, because lasers are a damage over time weapon it makes sense that you would have one chance per damage tick that hits an exposed location.

Just like LBX autocannons -- if multiple "pellets" hit an exposed location, you get multiple chances to get a critical hit.

[zudukai]

BUMP!

[Koniving]

There is not an official answer to this. But we can use the powers of Sherlock Holmes to figure it out.

We have laser weapons that -- depending on the source -- either deal damage every 0.1 or 0.2 seconds.

This gives us a few possibilities.

1) The crit chances are checked and rolled every interval. This sounds processor heavy considering the sheer amount of lasers that get sprayed at any one instant on MWO.

2) The crit chance is applied at the start of the beam. Far less processor heavy, but what if you were off target?

3) The crit chance is applied at the end of the beam. Far less processor heavy, but what if you were off target?

4) The crit chance is a lie.

2 and 3 have logical merits but balancing fallacies. Even though we're talking about PGI, those two are very unlikely.

My personal hypothesis is either "1" or "4" is true.

Now we come down to my opinion based on playing this game for some time. I have the most faith in backing number 4 from a design perspective. I have never since January lost internal components to lasers. I say that as a "now" rather than "for all time."

That said, despite what I would personally back as being true: I have evidence from closed beta where lasers destroy internal components. So "1" could very well be true. Since it occurs at the end of the beam, it could be argued as evidence towards "3."

In this version, the computer voice announces when I destroyed the Gauss Rifle (by small laser).


This version is the original, unedited footage.

Edited by Koniving, 25 November 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[zudukai]

Koniving, on 25 November 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

1;
2;
3;
4;
stuff

well they could also possibly have chosen specific duration intervals in which to roll crits, beginning, middle, end, or 1/2/3/4 quarters, since we have not tested this we cannot know for sure... there is science to do.

[Koniving]

There is that possibility, too. As well as any interval within the middle. Wanted to keep the possibilities pretty basic.

[Greyboots]

Hmm.... think I may have found a good question for "ask the devs"....

[zudukai]

Greyboots, on 25 November 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Hmm.... think I may have found a good question for "ask the devs"....

agreed.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Koniving, on 25 November 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

There is not an official answer to this. But we can use the powers of Sherlock Holmes to figure it out.

We have laser weapons that -- depending on the source -- either deal damage every 0.1 or 0.2 seconds.

This gives us a few possibilities.

1) The crit chances are checked and rolled every interval. This sounds processor heavy considering the sheer amount of lasers that get sprayed at any one instant on MWO.

2) The crit chance is applied at the start of the beam. Far less processor heavy, but what if you were off target?

3) The crit chance is applied at the end of the beam. Far less processor heavy, but what if you were off target?

4) The crit chance is a lie.

in defense of 2 and 3, (though more 2) they could roll for it once, then modify each tick
IE roll once, then each tick is increased by the appropriate value, so if the LP does 1.7 each tick normally
it would then deal 2.4 for a 2x or 4.1 for a 3x, any missed ticks, would be just that, a missed tick.

...that make sense?

[Koniving]

It does.

[Garth Erlam]

[color=cyan]Lasers check for crits every tick (but do that ticks worth of crit damage, so, a much smaller amount).[/color]

[Alaskan Nobody]

So about like a LBAC then, interesting.

[BbadAK]

So based on Garth's post (thanks for the clarification) lasers are great at generating critical hits but terrible at item destruction. Since most items have 10 hp, you would have to somehow score critical hits with many ticks of laser weapons to get even close to enough damage to cause item destruction. You are much more likely to simply destroy the location with internal damage before this happens. All hail the PPC, AC 10 and AC 20 as kings of critical hits!

Edited by BbadAK, 26 November 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[CheeseThief]

On the flip side they should be rather good for destroying 'padded' ECM and Gauss because their crit damage should be spread evenly, popping the component with least HP first, rather than letting the RNG run wild against gauss ammo and heat sinks.

Edited by CheeseThief, 26 November 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[zudukai]

when / (insert applied measurement here) is the interval / "tick"?


*is the damage taken noise the counter?


**

Quote

Assuming a critical is going to be dealt to a section, the odds of a particular item being hit depends on how many critical spaces it occupies and how many other spaces are also being occupied.
For example, there are 12 critical spaces in a side torso.

Placing an LB 10-X AC (which occupies 6 critical spaces) with six single heat sinks (each occupies 1 critical space) will fill that section with equipment. The odds of the Autocannon taking the hit is 50% since it occupies half the total occupied critical spaces. If the section house the Autocannon and only three single heat sinks, there would be a 66% chance for the Autocannon to take the critical hit since it occupies 6/9 of the total occupied spaces.

Weapons can deal critical damage up to three times.

Which equipment takes the critical hit is randomly determined per each critical based on their size and number of occupied critical spaces.

http://mwo.gamepedia.com/Critical_Hit

"Weapons can deal critical damage up to three times." duration devided by 3?

crits and you said:

Weapons that deal damage over time, like lasers, work by quickly dealing tiny amounts of damage repeatedly over the lifetime of the laser beam. I think the medium laser does something like 0.20 - 0.25 damage repeatedly until it does the full 5 damage. Each of those micro damage hits have their own chance to crit. This means that lasers will have many chances to crit, but the crits will be spread out amongst the equipment in the location, and do little damage each time. Meanwhile an autocannon will have only one chance to crit per shot, but do all its damage to one piece of equipment (or applied multiple times if you get a double or triple crit).
http://mwo.gamepedia...-_A_Brief_Guide

Edited by zudukai, 26 November 2013 - 11:43 PM.

[Greyboots]

Garth Erlam, on 26 November 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

[color=cyan]Lasers check for crits every tick (but do that ticks worth of crit damage, so, a much smaller amount).[/color]

Thanks for popping in! Much appreciated.

[MustrumRidcully]

Garth Erlam, on 26 November 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

[color=cyan]Lasers check for crits every tick (but do that ticks worth of crit damage, so, a much smaller amount).[/color]

This is a kind of one-liner I can appreciate.


That's what I figured. I actually thought we knew this already.

Not sure if anyone ever managed to track how many ticks actually happen. But I'd expect it to be one every 0.1 seconds. But that doesn't have to be true, it's just the kind of neat number I would have chosen and should possibly not be too many per seconds that it demands too much processing time.

Of course, I find, for the overall impact of crits on gameplay, the implementation sounds expensive.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 28 November 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

MustrumRidcully, on 28 November 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

This is a kind of one-liner I can appreciate.


That's what I figured. I actually thought we knew this already.

Not sure if anyone ever managed to track how many ticks actually happen. But I'd expect it to be one every 0.1 seconds. But that doesn't have to be true, it's just the kind of neat number I would have chosen and should possibly not be too many per seconds that it demands too much processing time.

Of course, I find, for the overall impact of crits on gameplay, the implementation sounds expensive.

I seem to recall it being listed as 20 per second when I started playing, so that's one every 0.05 seconds, but I may be wrong about that, and it could have been changed since then for all I know.

[HC Harlequin]

"[color=cyan]Lasers check for crits every tick (but do that ticks worth of crit damage, so, a much smaller amount)."[/color]

Unfortunately.. It doesn't actually answer the question. The question is, Is the damage applied at the beginning of the tick, or at the end of the tick; And/or does the pulse lasers apply their damage/crit chance at the beginning of the tick, And/or do the normal lasers then apply their damage/crit chance at the end of the tick (thus necessitating "holding" the normal lasers onto a component hit box for a tick duration), And/or what is the tick duration, and/or With smaller and faster mechs with tiny hit boxes where the lasers are more prone to "wash" the target and not apply any damage because the laser is unable to be held onto a hit box for the required duration do the pulse lasers have a separate mechanic than the normal lasers when hitting small fast moving hit boxes.
And finally, if this information is already posted somewhere in these unsearchable forums, then where is the official post/link from an employee of the company instead of a player who is just guessing.

Edited by HC Harlequin, 20 December 2013 - 01:58 AM.

[Koniving]

HC Harlequin, on 20 December 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

Unfortunately.. It doesn't actually answer the question. The question is, Is the damage applied at the beginning of the tick, or at the end of the tick;

You have to remember, Harlequin, a "tick" is an instant spurt of damage. A tick (depending on the laser) is once every 0.1 seconds or every 0.2 seconds depending on the laser type.

Let's take a large laser. 1 full second of beam time.
0.0 Fire. 0.1 tick, damage, crit, heat. 0.2 tick, damage, crit, heat. 0.3 tick, damage, crit, heat. 0.4 tick, damage crit, heat. 0.5 tick, damage, crit, heat. 0.6 tick damage, crit, heat. 0.7 tick, damage, crit, heat. 0.9 tick, damage, crit, heat. 1.0 tick, damage, crit, heat.

In the conclusion you've split the damage, the crit checks for damage, and heat build up into 10 sections. To convert this to tabletop, you'd do 10 dice rolls to find out where you hit, if you hit, and 1 crit dice roll for each time you hit an unarmored section, and do this per laser.

Also Harlequin, try the Ask the Devs thread. That's where most of us get our information, as it's the only place real information is given.

The damage then dealt is... 0.9 per tick regular damage. Between 0.9 to 2.7 crit damage per tick, assuming that there was a successful crit and not a failure to crit. To internal structure, it is be 0.9 + (15% of Crit) = damage, where Crit is 0.9 to 2.7. And then heat wise it's 0.7 heat per 'tick'.

In total for one large laser:
9 regular damage.
Bonus damage to structure maximum potential, 13.05 (including regular 9, separated it's 4.05)
Maximum possible crit damage to components: 27.
Heat generated: 7 points of heat.

Heat percentage comparison of 10 DHS across different engine ranges: Note that pre-installed DHS is 2.0. Any added after that is 1.4. A 250 engine comes with 10 pre-installed. A 175 comes with 7 pre-installed and so you have to add 3 additional 1.4 DHS to it.

Spoiler

If MWO's heat system was done like MW3: 23.33% of 30 threshold (maximum alpha potential to minimum shutdown point [100% heat]).
Above with cooling and beam duration accounted for: 16.67% heat.

If MWO's heat system was done like MW4: 11.67% heat of 60 threshold.
Above with cooling and beam duration accounted for: 8.33% heat.

If in MWO's system, 250 engine, 10 DHS, no skill unlocks: 14% heat of 50 threshold.
Above with cooling and beam duration accounted for: 10% heat.

If in MWO's system, 250 engine, 10 DHS, full skill unlocks: 11.67% of 60 threshold.
Above with cooling and beam duration accounted for: 7.833% heat.

If in MWO's system, 175 engine, 10 DHS, no skill unlocks: 14.523% of 48.2 threshold.
Above with cooling and beam duration accounted for: 10.747% heat.

If in MWO's system, 175 engine, 10 DHS, full skill unlocks: 12.1% of 57.84 threshold.
Above with cooling and beam duration accounted for: 8.48% heat.

Edited by Koniving, 20 December 2013 - 07:32 AM.