82 replies to this topic

[Bront]

Turist0AT, on 26 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

You can make a Stalker alpha almost 100 damage. If you are only putting 4LL on a stalker you dont deserv to have one, period.

You can't make them alpha that without serious heat issues (or using Lurms, which won't all hit).

[Alaskan Nobody]

Bront, on 26 November 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

You can't make them alpha that without serious heat issues (or using Lurms, which won't all hit).

I think thats part of the point though: stalkers have the ability to carry greater firepower than any other mech: Gwilliy (relatively) successfully runs 4LL on his Cataphract: doing it on a Stalker is a bit of a waste.
(hence you being awesome for using it the way you do)

There is more to the game than "Alpha-warrior Online" regardless of what the 'top-tier' competitives would have you believe.

[Turist0AT]

Bront, on 26 November 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

You can't make them alpha that without serious heat issues (or using Lurms, which won't all hit).

Stalker is energy and missile platform, energy are broken what did you expect. Well not broken, but the Ghost Heat and the incredible heat of some energy weapons makes it difficult.


The point is. You can have long range weapons and short range weapons without making it bad at either.

That aplies to you too Shar Wolf.

Edited by Turist0AT, 26 November 2013 - 01:29 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Turist0AT, on 26 November 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

That aplies to you too Shar Wolf.

[Turist0AT]

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

That you can make it both long range and short range....

[Alaskan Nobody]

Turist0AT, on 26 November 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

That you can make it both long range and short range....

Yes I know, that was the point of my post with the:

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

There is more to the game than "Alpha-warrior Online" regardless of what the 'top-tier' competitives would have you believe.

Most suggested "top tier" builds are oriented around alpha striking, and I am well aware you do not have to do that to be effective.

[Turist0AT]

Shar Wolf

Sorry its late here. I think i confuse myself more than i confuse you Yeah i agree with you..

[Alaskan Nobody]

Turist0AT, on 26 November 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Shar Wolf

Sorry its late here. I think i confuse myself more than i confuse you

o7

You are not alone........

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Most suggested "top tier" builds are oriented around alpha striking, and I am well aware you do not have to do that to be effective.

Exactly. I actually find "high alpha" rigs to be largely ineffective beyond one on one engagements or group versus group. My builds are centered around a simple premise: When you shut down after taking down some cannon fodder nearby me, I'll kill you, your support, and that guy half way across the map, one at a time, even though you're all shooting at me at once. I've begun to start saying "You're next" and "I'm coming for you" or the Stalker flame dance as a way of announcing my next kill before I get there.

Of course, there is that rare occasion when it's followed by "You lucky dog" when I walk right into a trap. It does happen after all.

[Victor Morson]

While I would continue to recommend the Highlander over the Stalker in general, the Stalker isn't a terrible assault 'mech - it's just knocked down to tier 2 is all.

It's as easy to use as any other assault and wouldn't be an awful first 'mech for a newbie. However again, I'd still recommend you look into Highlanders or Victors first if you're looking for a starter assault 'mech.

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Most suggested "top tier" builds are oriented around alpha striking, and I am well aware you do not have to do that to be effective.

Yes, you do.

Turist0AT, on 26 November 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

The point is. You can have long range weapons and short range weapons without making it bad at either.

To a point. There are builds you can throw some backup guns on - I run a few Streaks on my AC/5 Highlander and I've previously run Medium Lasers on my sniper Cataphract (not with the current meta, however). But that's a total of 2-3 tons, tops.

If you start splitting your focus more than "a few lightweight brawling weapons" you are making a huge mistake and are pretty much building a terrible 'mech from the start.

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

There is more to the game than "Alpha-warrior Online" regardless of what the 'top-tier' competitives would have you believe.

Yep, it's "Group-Fire Warrior" where we alpha as many weapons that can hit, instead.

Edited by Victor Morson, 26 November 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

My builds are usually generated around optimizing the stock loadout (IE swapping my centurions 1 LRM10 for 2 LRM5..... )

But that is derailing the thread.

As for whether the stalker is a good new person mech or not....
Would really depend on the person.

If he doesn't mind being in the least maneuverable mech... ok.
If he likes having weapons available at any range (and no to few ballistics) ... ok

But then.... I'm pretty lousy at knowing what would help others in situations like this.
Every mech I have played feels different, and what helped me learn how to play more than anything else, was feeling comfortable in my mech.
As everyones comfort is different....

[rdmgraziel]

Stalkers are supposed to run hot, it's literally one of the "problems" of the chassis by canon which could make it rough on new pilots. In MWO it depends on your loadout, but they're really potent support-geared assaults that are supposed to be high on firepower and deadly at multiple range profiles, regardless of what the "meta" dictates. I'm a fan of an upgraded stock loadout; deadly at all ranges with the only weakness being the comical heat of energy weapons. Basically, adjust the armor and cram as many DHS as humanly possible into the silly thing.

They are NOT particularly newbie friendly, but I don't think any of the Assaults really are. Assaults require fairly high skill to utilize effectively, as you need to know the quirks of the chassis (i.e. how to best defend and protect yourself while using it) and you have to have excellent situational awareness and you need to position yourself optimally because they're very very unforgiving if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The quirks of the Stalker are its massive side profile (and torsos) and the heat related problems caused by their TEN weapon systems. It lacks proper arms and it goes slowly and it has limited torso movement, so there's fewer surfaces to absorb hits and you almost always have to either face your enemy or use LRMs to do damage. That said, if you build it for firepower you'll obliterate anyone silly enough to try to stare you down in a straight fight with your narrow front profle and comical firepower.

People have mentioned Victors, and they're something of an exception, but only after you cram a massive XL in there, and even so it pilots like an 80 ton Medium at that point with limited weapon systems to match. It's difficult to compare Assault mechs, they have the same role but accomplish it in different ways.

Best newb mech is a Cent or a Hunchie. Cents for raw durability, Hunchies because everything about Hunchbacks is straightforward and easy to use.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

My builds are usually generated around optimizing the stock loadout (IE swapping my centurions 1 LRM10 for 2 LRM5..... )

But that is derailing the thread.

This. Newbies, look at this, and never do this.

The stock load outs are terrible on purpose in general. FASA configured 'mechs like that to break them, and never even planned on them in a FP environment.

Don't even consider the stock builds when looking at 'mechs, look purely at hard points, gun placement, and hit boxes.

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

As for whether the stalker is a good new person mech or not....
Would really depend on the person.

If he doesn't mind being in the least maneuverable mech... ok.
If he likes having weapons available at any range (and no to few ballistics) ... ok

But then.... I'm pretty lousy at knowing what would help others in situations like this.
Every mech I have played feels different, and what helped me learn how to play more than anything else, was feeling comfortable in my mech.
As everyones comfort is different....

The guy comfortable running trash frankenmechs will still get obliterated by the guy learning properly built 'mechs. Newbies reading this: You decide which you'd rather be.

[Turist0AT]

Victor Morson, on 26 November 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

While I would continue to recommend the Highlander over the Stalker in general, the Stalker isn't a terrible assault 'mech - it's just knocked down to tier 2 is all.

It's as easy to use as any other assault and wouldn't be an awful first 'mech for a newbie. However again, I'd still recommend you look into Highlanders or Victors first if you're looking for a starter assault 'mech.



Yes, you do.



To a point. There are builds you can throw some backup guns on - I run a few Streaks on my AC/5 Highlander and I've previously run Medium Lasers on my sniper Cataphract (not with the current meta, however). But that's a total of 2-3 tons, tops.

If you start splitting your focus more than "a few lightweight brawling weapons" you are making a huge mistake and are pretty much building a terrible 'mech from the start.



Yep, it's "Group-Fire Warrior" where we alpha as many weapons that can hit, instead.

If you were to face a Stalker in a Highlander, what loadout would you bring?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 26 November 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

The guy comfortable running trash frankenmechs will still get obliterated by the guy learning properly built 'mechs. Newbies reading this: You decide which you'd rather be.

What you really have to do, is decide just how competitive you want to be.
I will never ever be a top tier player: I lack the focus for it.
Having said that, I am quite effective at my ELO, I am by far not the worst player on my playing field.

Telling new players they MUST be running the BEST builds possible does no more to help them, than trying to teach a grade school basketball team, to play the way an NBA team does.

[Victor Morson]

rdmgraziel, on 26 November 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

They are NOT particularly newbie friendly, but I don't think any of the Assaults really are. Assaults require fairly high skill to utilize effectively, as you need to know the quirks of the chassis (i.e. how to best defend and protect yourself while using it) and you have to have excellent situational awareness and you need to position yourself optimally because they're very very unforgiving if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is entirely untrue, and there is a reason that in every single MechWarrior game prior to MW:O every single newbie was piloting a 90+ ton assault. Assaults are the easiest, in a way, to setup and drive since you will have way more firepower than the lighter things on the field - of which there are many.

Assaults have probably one of the lowest skill entries, while I'd say lights have one of the highest.

rdmgraziel, on 26 November 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

The quirks of the Stalker are its massive side profile (and torsos) and the heat related problems caused by their TEN weapon systems. It lacks proper arms and it goes slowly and it has limited torso movement, so there's fewer surfaces to absorb hits and you almost always have to either face your enemy or use LRMs to do damage. That said, if you build it for firepower you'll obliterate anyone silly enough to try to stare you down in a straight fight with your narrow front profle and comical firepower.

Ghost Heat totally screwed the Stalker over. There's not many builds left running that aren't on the Misery.

rdmgraziel, on 26 November 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

People have mentioned Victors, and they're something of an exception, but only after you cram a massive XL in there, and even so it pilots like an 80 ton Medium at that point with limited weapon systems to match. It's difficult to compare Assault mechs, they have the same role but accomplish it in different ways.

This is a terrible way to look at the Victor. The Victor is literally the midpoint between a Cataphract 3D and a Highlander; it moves like the midpoint, it shoots like the midpoint, and it even has armor and durability like the mid point. It's a great 'mech for a pilot who likes heavies, or one that wants to get into faster assaults; it's more of a "super heavy" than a typical assault.

Very good 'mech though and it doesn't carry "the firepower of a medium." We run 2x PPC 2x AC5 Victors as super-Cataphracts all the time.

rdmgraziel, on 26 November 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Best newb mech is a Cent or a Hunchie. Cents for raw durability, Hunchies because everything about Hunchbacks is straightforward and easy to use.

Centurions I can recommend, and have recommended. Shadow Hawks are also an excellent 'mech to start with in the medium category. Both would serve a newbie well, but I'd lean Shadow Hawk currently.

Hunchbacks are too restricted in engine to be qualified. They've got that huge hunch outside of the 4SP too. Hunchbacks should be bottom of the priority list for new players.

Turist0AT, on 26 November 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

If you were to face a Stalker in a Highlander, what loadout would you bring?

Almost positively 2x AC5 2x PPC; my personal Highlander also carries two additional Streaks. Optionally the 2 PPC 1 AC/20 Highlander is also brutal at anti-assault.

Edited by Victor Morson, 26 November 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

What you really have to do, is decide just how competitive you want to be.
I will never ever be a top tier player: I lack the focus for it.
Having said that, I am quite effective at my ELO, I am by far not the worst player on my playing field.

But going "I'm pretty bad at the game, so newbies, come be bad with me!" seems like a really bad idea. If you said to people "I do this, but it's not the best, I just have fun doing with it" that's fine. But you're basically suggesting to newbies that you can "be effective" in horribly ineffective ways.

If I was a new guy looking for info on 'mech builds or recommendations I would not want to hear a sea of bad ideas, in particular if they are coming from folks who know they are bad ideas.

Basically when a newbie asks "Is X good? Should I consider Y instead?" I tell them the answer to the best of my knowledge; I mean, I still have fun playing around in Trebuchet now and then, but I don't think I've ever recommended one in over a year.

Shar Wolf, on 26 November 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Telling new players they MUST be running the BEST builds possible does no more to help them, than trying to teach a grade school basketball team, to play the way an NBA team does.

That is entirely false in this environment. There are things that this would be true for - explaining team tactics, maybe advanced techniques - that could be tricky.

But this is more akin to someone in a FPS asking which gun to unlock, because they want to unlock the best possible option, and getting a ton of replies about how much you like your 3rd tier gun that's inferior in every way.

If you stick a newbie in a modified stock Frankenmech like you are suggesting, and you take a newbie of the EXACT skill level and stick them in a properly designed 'mech instead, the Frankennewbie will get rolled every time.

[Itsalrightwithme]

In an Assault, you rarely have enough speed to get yourself out of a bad situation. Except maybe if you run a Victor with XL and JJ. So based on this, I recommend newbies away from Stalkers, especially with terrain movement restrictions. Stalkers are all very terrain-challenged and typical builds run hot. Both factors make it harder for newbies.

[Koniving]

Victor Morson, on 26 November 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Centurions I can recommend, and have recommended. Shadow Hawks are also an excellent 'mech to start with in the medium category. Both would serve a newbie well, but I'd lean Shadow Hawk currently.

Hunchbacks are too restricted in engine to be qualified. They've got that huge hunch outside of the 4SP too. Hunchbacks should be bottom of the priority list for new players.

Centurions and Hunchbacks have identical engine restrictions... You frequently have these seemingly misguided impressions. Such as missile port numbers increasing on Centurions when they don't really. Evidently they did about 5 months back when dinosaurs roamed the earth but it is not valid though you say it as if the information is current. Extra energy hardpoints on mechs that can't carry more than 2 (namely the Shadowhawk). And Hunchbacks having engine restrictions, when in comparison all 5 Hunchbacks and 3 of the 5 Centurions have identical engine limits and it's been that way for months. Not to mention the currently superior torso twist on every Hunchback as well as range of movement on their arms. But since you don't use these things to seemingly include what you frequently recommend, how would you know that such changes have occurred? Frankly it appears you are left in the dark on these things.

If anyone is wondering about the "5th" Centurion...
(CN9-A, CN9-AL, Yen Lo Wang all have identical limits to Hunchbacks. CN9-D has a higher limit that it can't use unless it's an XL. The CN9-AH, 3 ballistics, 2 missile, zero energy, also currently locked as it has been since the start of open beta, had an engine limit of 225).

But yes. Shadowhawks are a nearly overpowered addition to the medium mech forces.

[DrSlamastika]

Stalkers are good, but maybe not for a totally newbie.
Misery was my third mech, first was Catapult-K2 and second Spider-5D.
Now I have 28 mechs and Misery is still my favourite one.
So stalkers are good, but you need mastered them as soon as possible. They really need speed tweak.

Edited by DrSlamastika, 26 November 2013 - 02:24 PM.