82 replies to this topic

[Unnatural Growth]

I guess it depends on how "new" you are. I don't think assaults are a good first mech in MWO because you will get focus fired on very early in the match. Basic tenant of combat: Try to look unimportant. I think Stalkers get focused on right behind Atlai as an important target that needs to be taken out quickly.

I kept my 3F and 5S Stalkers and sold the 4N. They do bring serious firepower to bear, but I don't consider them brawlers. Fire support mechs sure, but they can't turn well, and they're slow. It was fairly common in PUGs to be left behind by my team. Not good in a Stalker. One light mech can take you down if he is a mediocre pilot if he gets enough time to do so. Ultimately, you need a couple of mediums, or a heavy and a light mech shadowing you in your Stalker. That would be a deadly combo for sure.

They ran hot BEFORE ghost heat/heat nerf hammer struck. Now they're crazy hot. I haven't run my Stalkers much since before the heat nerf. I did take my 3F out Sunday for a match. I have some changes to make, as 2 ERPPC's, 2 LL's, 2 ML's and 2 SRM6's used to be fairly decent. Now it works ok if you chainfire everything, but it's not great.

[Hexenhammer]

A better question is, "What is new player friendly."

I suggest new players boil their weapons down to 3 buttons at the max.
Left click for primary weapons, like arm mounted weapons.
Right click for torso weapons.
Button 3 for LRMs. That way when the fight goes close the player can focus on moving and aiming like in a FPS.

Also stream line the weapons. Don't put AC/20 and streaks on the same button.
Don't try to mix ACs and Lasers on the same button.

[GalaxyBluestar]

well considering it's my sig mech i'll throw some pointers in.

pros:

vertical movement via arms is excellent, on heavy incline or multiple level terrain. legging lights and tackling JJ's is very doable.

excellent front profile, poking from behind hills known as "ridge humping" is very good to do in this mech as over 70% of it's profile is covered whilst you can shoot your arm weapons at targets.

makes an excellent sniper mech or mixed weapons plateform, the mixed weapons loadout is best suited these days.

hard point amount, hitboxes and the locations of these are excellent for typical stare down fights made by newbies
be warned vets can head shot you well enough and shooting the box between the legs "crotch shoots" are what a bunch of people do to overcome the thin CT profile and wasting damage on the side torsos. with torso twisting coupled with good steering this mech can tank damage very well.

cons:

arms have no lateral movement so steering the whole chassis is needed when someone circle jerks you, avoid that situation if you can, a mastered 310 engine relieves this problem but not entirely.

side profile is enormous and is first to be targeted, watch out for flankers!

maneuverability in general is like the mech itself, a wallowing fat pig. Do not focus your loadout on short range weaponry {ac20 for MISERY and 4 short range backup weapons are fine} this mech can not brawl and should never be used to. Also it’s a mech that doesn’t climb very well and will constantly get stuck on small ridges so being this mech cannot have jump jets it’s ground coverage is also very poor.

most popular builds all require familiarity with the game so aren't newb friendly, these are;

- the energy specialist
the arbitrary heat multiplier on top of each weapon's heat generation number, eg: fire more than 2 of the same type of weapon then you incur an additional heat generation penalty. the stalker is built around 2 weapon types that have both received heavier penalties than the third, a reason for many people turning to ballistics these days. Thus energy mechs need serious discipline, knowledge of the maps covers spots and battlefield awareness to avoid constant shutdowns and being a sitting duck. The firepower comes with a serious skill curve price these days. The additional penalty is known as Ghost Heat/GH.

- the missile boat
the missile boat role is also hampered with GH, not as much as many energy weapons ideal for the assault battery plateform that is the stalker but you have to watch out firing too many LRM's at the same time. Also the LRM system relies heavily on holding targets under lock, TAG is now compulsory and perhaps Artemis limits build potential in this version of MW, you must also rely heavily on teammates holding enemy contact for you whilst using LRM's. not friendly for first time solo play.

- the mixed loadout
in order to use these properly you need to be able to group the weapons effectively and the list can get a little long, use of more of the controls for firing groups up to five and six may not be newb friendly and more than likely you’ll have weapons of 2 or more max range to understand. You will also have to remember the lock on problems of the missile boat if 50% of your firepower is LRM’s.

builds to stay away from;

anything with an engine under 280

any load out not utilizing 4 or more heavy weapons {ppc - ER LL builds aren't great builds but that's the limit, anything less is a waste of tonnage/firepower capability}

any mech built without 1000 LRM's in ammo or Less than 18 DHS.

skill level required out of 10.... about a 6.5 these days, used to be 5 but GH and new incline mechanics means you need more experience of piloting and heat management to use this mech now. in perspective an awesome is still an 8 because battlefield awareness, i've only witnessed these mechs being average performers as wolfpack premades and many other mechs do that job even better.

still the stalker is a good mech but not truly newbie friendly. for assaults friendlyness try the highlander or the victor then move onto a stalker or atlas, awesomes are for very skilled or very *********.

[DrSlamastika]

GalaxyBluestar, on 26 November 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

builds to stay away from;

anything with an engine under 280

any load out not utilizing 4 or more heavy weapons {ppc - ER LL builds aren't great builds but that's the limit, anything less is a waste of tonnage/firepower capability}

any mech built without 1000 LRM's in ammo or Less than 18 DHS.

My Misery cannot agree with you.
I use STD 265, 14 DBL HS and 4x LL + Gauss Gun and those stats aren't that bad, if you consider it was my third mech, first assault and learning machine

[Davers]

I tried Stalkers but ended up selling them. I just couldn't handle how slow and ungainly they were. Funny enough, I didn't have the same problem with Atlases.

[Fuggles]

I wouldn't suggest stalkers to someone starting out, still learning the game. I would master something like a hunchback wich is cheap, easy to play, teaches you to twist and spread damage or how to protect a valuable side, and isn't so slow that you can't recover from mistakes.

Stalkers can leave a new mech pilot frustrated as they constantly shut down, find themselves too slow and picked apart by lights, easily overcommited and neutered by easy to hit side torsos.

Once your ready for them though they are fantastic mechs that can really rack up the damage and kills. My favorite is the 3F witchfor me has a k/d ratio and damage per match higher than almost all of my other mechs.

[C E Dwyer]

People fail with stalkers like they can fail with anything else, if a stalker get out on its own against a person who knows about how slow and limited the torso twisting is, its toast, 1v1 a victor will usually take down a stalker if both play to their mechs strengths, stalker will only win if the victor is poorly built, and has it JJ's removed.

They are popular with newbs, or founders that just can't shoot straight as they can pack alot of LRMs and are big enough to take some damage and are smaller head on than the supposed dedicated LRM boat the catapult, however remaining a lurm boat isn't going to help you get any better.


If your a reasonable pilot, and avoid situations a Stalker is poor in then it can feel like easy mode.

My stalkers are brawly, if they do run lrms its usually only lrm10 paired, launched to weaken the target, and to put them off or just hide behind a building until I can close and finnish of with the primary weapons.

Assault LRM boats are a total waste unless you only intend to fight newbs who have trouble not falling over their feet in a match

Edited by Cathy, 27 November 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Normaly I would say: " No Assault mech is newby friendly....."
But.....I must aggree with most of the posts about the Stalker saying he has not many edges and quirks where you can actualy go very very wrong.
He has two major drawbacks.
-- Very hot, but heatmanagement is an important thing to learn and
-- he is quite slow.
Slowlyness on the battlefield is truely deadly and will get you killed at times you are facing multiple quick oponents while your team is retreating.
So Battlefield awareness and the good old : "Don't run into the enemy" rule will be the second and very importent thing you either learn very quickly or you die over and over again.
So thats it.
Stalker is a slow compact mech with massive firepower that gets others killed as well as him self.
Don't get trigger happy and don't try to cuddle your enemy and you will be fine most of the time.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 26 November 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

But going "I'm pretty bad at the game, so newbies, come be bad with me!"

It says something about my debate skills that it took me this long to think of a reply to this.

If your first response is to mock, you probably do not have much of a response.

While you have some points (from the perspective you approach them from) there is a lot more room for flexibility on the field than you give credit for, otherwise how would pilots like Koniving be able to do jack-diddly with the builds he loves to flaunt?

On paper "Frankenmechs" look bad, yes.
But there is only so much an 18SRM Centurion can do to support his team - if he is not within that 270 meters, he is DEAD WEIGHT.
A Centurion with even a single LRM5 is more help.
A team full of coordinated Centurion, with a mixed loadout, are more than capable of fighting a team of SRM18 Centurions.
(exception, if the SRM Centurions are far more skilled, and outmaneuver the "Frankenmechs")

And I can guarantee you, a pilot who knows how to twist, and has learned to due so because he HAS to, will be a far deadlier pilot than one who was taught to rely on the Meta.

People wonder why the people on their teams suck so bad?
Because they were taught to suck.
They were taught to follow the meta, and not learn the core mechanics of the gameplay.

Edit: forgot a point
I would no more recommend a meta oriented build or mech to a new player, than I would reccomend Meta Knight to a Smash Bros. player, and for the same reasons.

Edited Edit:
There is a world of difference between "Worth Less" and "Worthless" that you might want to explore one of these days.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 27 November 2013 - 01:43 PM.

[Inflatable Fish]

if you ask me, no assault mech is a good way to start your adventure with MWO. their slow movement and limited manoeuverability make it mandatory to plan ahead and position yourself optimally to make the best use of your weaponry.

my advice, get a heavy as your first mech. a CTF, JM6 or ON1 should be cool.

[Josef Koba]

Turist0AT, on 26 November 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

You can make a Stalker alpha almost 100 damage. If you are only putting 4LL on a stalker you dont deserv to have one, period.

Really? It's weird that I don't deserve to have a mech with the loadout that I've chosen. Why would that be the case in a game that allows customization? I didn't see anything in the Stalker instruction manual that mandated pilots drive a high alpha build. The build works, period. I've scored over a thousand damage on a number of occasions. The damage potential is limited only by the length of the match and the enemy's armor.

[ego1607]

I wouldn't use stalker as a first mech. It's slow as hell, often runs hot, and if you find yourself (or even worse, shut down) at the wrong place, you'll quickly get surrounded and murdered. I'd get something a bit more forgiving.

[Zordicron]

Small heavy or big medium(50-65 tons) is best for the n00b experiance. You are small enough to escape form a bonehead move(probably NOT unscathed) but big enough to experiment with weapons and whatnot. They teach how to be aware of the battlefield, most have hardpoints and tonnage enough to teach about heat managment, and you wont have any other n00bs following you into battle. Nothing worse then having half a pug follow an Atlas into battle only to find out Atlas is a trial mech with some guy with 5 matches under his belt.

As for Stalkers and n00bs, well, depends. i would say they offer some steep heat managment learning curve. I would say they are somewhat friendly on keeping arm and torso crosshairs somewhat in line. BUT, IMO taking away free arm motion is actually bad for learning.

At best, I would say Stalker is passable as a first assault mech. However, IMO new players should not be in assault mechs to begin with. Especially if they start with this tonnage limits stuff soon. Your win/loss is going to sucxxxx when you take up an assault slot on your team before you have a clue. Learn the ropes in a hunchie or something, then save some c-bills for a stalker after yuo know the maps a bit and what happens when you run across an open field or shoot 6 ML in group fire 3 times in 10 seconds with single heat sinks. Armed with the knowledge of how to die a gruesome death, you will be a much better Stalker pilot.

[Victor Morson]

DrSlamastika, on 27 November 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

My Misery cannot agree with you.

To be fair I'd have a much easier time recommending Stalkers to newbies if the Misery wasn't MC only. It's probably the best Stalker in the current meta, too.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

It says something about my debate skills that it took me this long to think of a reply to this.

If your first response is to mock, you probably do not have much of a response.

Or I'm so incredibly sure of what I'm saying on this matter that anything else seems silly, which is the case here.

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

While you have some points (from the perspective you approach them from) there is a lot more room for flexibility on the field than you give credit for, otherwise how would pilots like Koniving be able to do jack-diddly with the builds he loves to flaunt?

Because you can take the absolute worst build in the universe - hell, give me a Pretty Baby armed with flamers - and still pull miracle rounds to post in the forums. It in no way makes them good. Plus, in pugs, you run across many, many pilots running really bad stuff themselves.

My point, however, is this: When you have 8 people running {Scrap}, and 2 people running good stuff, the game really turns into a 2v2 with a bunch of cannon fodder out there. This was really pronounced back when Ghost Heat first got put in, because the 2-3 Highlander pilots in any given PUG would be like demigods in a game of ants.

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

On paper "Frankenmechs" look bad, yes.
But there is only so much an 18SRM Centurion can do to support his team - if he is not within that 270 meters, he is DEAD WEIGHT.

If you're taking an SRM18 Centurion then you better plan on moving as a pack into a brawl otherwise yes, it's dead weight. There are many other options for that, however, ranging from my LRM Centurion I bring up to just going to a Shadow Hawk, with brutal PPC + AC5 configs. There's a reason I recommend the Shadow Hawk as a great newbie mech and as a priority.

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

A Centurion with even a single LRM5 is more help.

And this is where your argument goes flying off the rails. No, no it will not be more help. Because that LRM5 hurts the overall 'mech since it's not specialized, and won't even crack a single AMS system. It's absolutely a paper weight at this point.

Again the 3 SRM6 Centurion is a brawler and obviously if you're not planning on brawling, it is not a good choice. If you plan on brawling it's great. The Shadow Hawk is better at more diverse ranges and again, should be a newbie's first medium hands down.

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

A team full of coordinated Centurion, with a mixed loadout, are more than capable of fighting a team of SRM18 Centurions.
(exception, if the SRM Centurions are far more skilled, and outmaneuver the "Frankenmechs")

I've got a hard truth for you: The team running full SRM18s will always be more skilled than the team running Frankenmechs. MechWarrior starts at the design phase, so the Franken team is already badly losing before the drop even starts.

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

And I can guarantee you, a pilot who knows how to twist, and has learned to due so because he HAS to, will be a far deadlier pilot than one who was taught to rely on the Meta.

..... wait a second. You think that meta pilots don't learn to twist because we have good guns? What are you on, I want some.

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

People wonder why the people on their teams suck so bad?
Because they were taught to suck.

If you're wondering this in a 12 man, perhaps you joined the wrong team?

If you're wondering this in a PUG it's the reverse problem: Everyone on the team is running {Scrap} that can't stand up to the handful of good designs and it's frustrating as hell. I HATE going "We might win this, we have an Atlas!" to go toggle over and see he's running AC/2s with Large Pulse or something horrendous.

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

They were taught to follow the meta, and not learn the core mechanics of the gameplay.

First: Why do you think building good 'mechs with cutting edge guns prevents you from learning anything else? Almost everyone I know that drives the Cent you were talking about can bring them down to 15-18% routinely.

Second: Learning which guns & chassis are better and why they are better is learning the core mechanics of gameplay!

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Edit: forgot a point
I would no more recommend a meta oriented build or mech to a new player, than I would reccomend Meta Knight to a Smash Bros. player, and for the same reasons.

I don't play Smash Bros., but if you wanted to go to a fighting game analogy it'd be like recommending you start playing Street Fighter 4 for the very first time with Dan, because it will somehow make you "learn to fight better."


Pictured: Street Fighter's equivalent on the Frakenmech.

[LapsedPacifist79]

@ OP

I'm just levelling these as we speak. They have all the agility of a brick. But you wouldn't want to get hit in the face by one....

Not a bad first mech I think. All that firepower makes for a LOT of fun. You haven't lived until you've put quad LLs into an unsuspecting back.

Edit: Dan FTW

Edited by LapsedPacifist79, 28 November 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Koniving]

Shar Wolf, on 27 November 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

A Centurion with even a single LRM5 is more help.
A team full of coordinated Centurion, with a mixed loadout, are more than capable of fighting a team of SRM18 Centurions.
(exception, if the SRM Centurions are far more skilled, and outmaneuver the "Frankenmechs")

And I can guarantee you, a pilot who knows how to twist, and has learned to due so because he HAS to, will be a far deadlier pilot than one who was taught to rely on the Meta.

People wonder why the people on their teams suck so bad?
Because they were taught to suck.
They were taught to follow the meta, and not learn the core mechanics of the gameplay.

Another thing about a Centurion, though he's using 18 SRMs every single attack, the maximum number of missiles that can register at once is currently 13. Anything beyond that usually does not register. The third launcher is completely wasted, but how would anyone know when they run only the meta and do not experiment.

The key to learning anything, including what works about the meta, is experimentation. The "meta" was found by experimenting and then information being shared. But the meta is outdated. There are far more powerful weapon combinations to be had, which are more practical, that aren't common in the current meta. Why? No one is experimenting.

For example I have a modest heat rig that can alpha 58 damage every single attack and it's only generating 41 with the ability to alpha strike twice in a row on the hot maps (Caustic, Terra Therma, Tourmaline) without risk of shutdown. Paced, I can squeeze out more than 5 alpha strikes. Or I can fire only some of the weapons at any given time for anywhere from 18 to 20 damage in a single strike depending on which weapons I use. One of them only generates 6 heat per shot and deals 20 damage. Though its optimum range is around 400 meters, it's quite effective. Far more so than anything that can be run by most mechs let alone the metas. Best of all? Ghost heat doesn't care.

Problem is, without experimenting I'd be stuck in Victor's little corner of despair, crying over being killed by something that someone else made when they showed a brief bit of intelligent thinking outside of the box.

------

Those of us who learned to twist and protect our components did so because we had to learn it. There's pilots who can use Atlases to "Punch" and "Swat" AC/20 rounds out of the air to protect themselves and allies; these were skills we had to learn in closed beta with single armor. Skills we had to learn when alpha-warrior-online was impossible. Skills we had to learn when PGI was more true to the original rules. Skills we adapted as we moved on.

And when the PPC warrior {Scrap} came about before ghost heat? Who thrived then, laying prey to the PPC warriors? Oddly enough those of us who built those skills. Those of us who think outside of the box, who create builds that can chase down and slaughter those clichéd meta toys. Those of us who could make a rig that can rush a 4 PPC stalker and take it down before it can fire a third time. Those of us who know that we can jump on top of a mech and shoot its cockpit out in a single strike. Those of us who learn things for ourselves, who experiment, who discover, who ultimately have fun and enjoy what we do rather than preach as if "meta" is the gospel. Meta is a joke. Oddly enough so was the PPC and AC/20 combination. So was the AC/20 Blackjack. The Drop-Kicking Raven. The Dragon Tackle. The streak cat was originally a joke. I was among the first to design and use it on MWO. It was ultimately impractical because back then Streaks required skills. So was the splatapult; the scatter was so wide that you could hit two Awesomes at the same time at 270 meters when it was at its tightest.

The praised meta zombie Centurion started as a joke build. Someone wanted to see how big of a standard engine he could stuff in it and so he carried small lasers and a big engine and survived for an incredible amount of time. Later he swapped the lasers, some size of the engine, and threw in SRM-2s (the only SRMs that could assuredly hit their target). Later it evolved as SRMs became more accurate. The build spread. It became a meta. Funny how it stayed that way, even as SRMs stopped doing between 17 and 27 damage per missile, and prevailed as a useless meta trinket when SRMs were doing 1.2 damage and "5cm" splash. It was still preached as the greatest thing ever, because that's all people knew. "Joe Smoe said it's good back in 1903 before the great depression, invest in one now!"

Well, hate to break it to meta players but the Centurion is essentially obsolete. You'll get superior results in a Hunchback 4SP. In addition to better hit detection and endurance of only 2 SRM-6s, you'll have better anti-light abilities as well as much more control over precision damage.

Unfortunately, meta clashes with many playstyles, severely impairing their ability to play as well as their ability to have fun. It's the equivalent of handing players "Zangief" because in one Street Fighter game he's got the most powerful punches. So? Just because he has the most powerful single button hit doesn't mean it has a chance in heck against someone who knows how to play. The greatest merit of the meta is also its greatest weakness. They are all built the same. We know their weaknesses, and all bringing a meta build does is lets us know exactly how to kill you. We can even have fun and laugh at your expense, for being stupid enough to be using it.

I was telling someone the other day just how predictable a meta build was. "Twisting won't work," I said into the mic as I kept tearing into a meta rig. The player with me asked why. I responded: "Because all of his weapons rotate around 4 seconds. He'll twist back to face me when his weapons are ready. Mine get ready sooner, I can hit him once to fool him into thinking he's safe to fire and then jam him in his weak spot 2 times before he can even finish aiming and shooting at me." And as I explained it I killed that meta rig and moved on to his buddy who quickly fell seconds later.

Ultimately I was called a hacker for being able to shoot faster. To me this clearly says the player hasn't used anything but meta rigs like that one. Fast fire doesn't work, his rig seemed to have at least all basics unlocked. But alas, the concept of being able to shoot faster by using weapons that do so -- the non-standard, non-meta weapons -- is completely lost and thus "hacking"?

What this very clearly demonstrates is how poorly that victim was taught. His rig is one that Victor preached in his beginner's guide. The player's name, however, is many months older according to the forum profile.

[Koniving]

Just because a build made it to "meta" doesn't mean it's even remotely useful in a real fight. It just means the build packs a punch. But if it takes 4 or more seconds to repeat that punch, what good is the build when you miss? When someone can dodge? When someone will throw their arm in the way of the hit, and then beat you into oblivion? What happens when a strong build meets someone who actually knows what they are doing, because they played the game and have learned all of the ups, downs, tricks and mistakes?

When you take a short cut, you miss out on a lot. I don't know why a pokémon episode comes to mind, but back in 2000-ish, I saw an episode where Pikachu was pit against the far more evolved form Raichu or something like that. The second mouse was much more powerful. Its attacks devastating. But because it was forced to evolve very early, it never learned defensive attacks. It also never learned speed, or other crucial abilities.

The same is true for MWO.

If you skip to what some people with a stick up their rear consider to be "the best," then just how much knowledge did you miss out on? How many skills are you failing to learn? And just how much fun has been lost to oblivion, because you brought something that takes all of the fun out of the game and changed it into a point and click adventure?

Genuinely think about it.

[LapsedPacifist79]

Koniving, on 28 November 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

If you skip to what some people with a stick up their rear consider to be "the best," then just how much knowledge did you miss out on? How many skills are you failing to learn? And just how much fun has been lost to oblivion, because you brought something that takes all of the fun out of the game and changed it into a point and click adventure?

Genuinely think about it.

If you are ever in Devon, England then drop me a line. Beers are on me Dr Kon.

[Koniving]

LapsedPacifist79, on 28 November 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

If you are ever in Devon, England then drop me a line. Beers are on me Dr Kon.

Thanks for the offer. I got drunk once. I skipped the small beers and went straight for 11 shots of very hard mixed liquor combinations in a drinking game within 2 minutes in honor of a neighborhood kid who was my age at the time that got himself run over by a car at 4 in the morning after his mother refused to pick him up (because the dumb teen got himself stoned). True story and much like what I was saying about MWO and skipping right to meta, I learned a valuable lesson with over 3 hours of nearly non-stop hardcore puking and misery and swore never to drink again. To drink hardcore, it takes building up the intestinal fortitude. Can't just pick up the bottle and chug.

But how 'bout I take you up for some games soon?