376 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

And yet, people wanna see limits set. If you say you are competitive, you wouldn't want to limit your enemy from bringing their A game. I was dropping with a mix of Lawmen and Devil Dogs(Plug a fellow Lyran Group) last night. We ran into a few teams that had 4-6 Assaults More than we had(2 assault, 1 Heavy, 1 Light IIRC). Our matches ended well with our worst loss being 8-12. And the remaining 4... well a stiff breeze may have toppled them. We competed with the heavier teams and performed well even in loss.

That is because these "competitive" people don't actually care about being competitive. Weight limits do two things and that is give lighter mechs that people feel are inferior the illusion of being "competitive" by forcing people to play them, and weight limits take options off of the board by eliminating team comps and strategies people might want to try like all lights or all heavies.

I want to see a bigger variety of mechs on the battlefield as much as anyone, but I want to be given a reason to field them rather than being forced to field them by some arbitrary weight limit.

Edited by WarHippy, 27 November 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Technoviking, on 27 November 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Yes, Well, lets hope things aren't done terribly, and there is a freaking economy along with CW. If CW is one big no time/no repair infinite magic mech Counterstrike fest it is now... then CW is just a color coded ladder league anyway.

but lets assume they do it right for a second.

But lets say the Front is 60 LY away, where an important planet named Xex is being fought over.
You want to be there. Your mechs are on Yep. (also on Wow, Tot, Ubu you have a lot of mechs but they are more than 2 jumps away.)

It costs 10 million to jump there, and you have a dropship that can carry 400 tons.

Do you bring all 4 Assault mechs? A mixture of 8 'mechs? Remember, after all your 'mechs are dead you have to use House supplied stock (trial) 'mechs if the battle is continuing. (in imaginary awesome land)

Maybe they add missions, and your first step is "Recon", or "Secure LZ" and you have to take all the control points in part of time. Assaults wont' do it.

All kinds of ways to make CW not suck, and limits happen by default of role, or availability, or Dropship size...

Leopard-4 Mechs/2 Fighters
Union-12 Mechs/2 fighters/74 tons of cargo
Overlord-36 Mechs/6 fighters/50 tons of Cargo

Mechs are separate from "Cargo"

Each mechbay can support a Mech of any weight. Now knowing that, which Mechs would you want to bring to the party. The Mech bay can also hold a set tonnage of repair and rearm supplies.

[Lukoi Banacek]

I just wish NBT was allowed to handle community warfare for this game. They know how to integrate an economy, tonnage and chassis limits and could build the automation to conduct these battles between units.

[ssm]

WarHippy, on 27 November 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

That is because these "competitive" people don't actually care about being competitive. Weight limits do two things and that is give lighter mechs that people feel are inferior the illusion of being "competitive" by forcing people to play them, and weight limits take options off of the board be eliminating team comps and strategies people might want to try like all lights or all heavies.

I want to see a bigger variety of mechs on the battlefield as much as anyone, but I want to be given a reason to field them rather than being forced to field them by some arbitrary weight limit.

BT is just like this - sometimes you need to be good at piloting inferior mechs.Competitive teams will be ok - they'll just have to adapt. And while it'l make some people sad, the game will be better.

Also, in BT lore there is one simple reason that people field light/medium mechs - because most of the time they are only mechs availble. And because it's not possible to directly translate it into MWO (as most of us already have at least 1-2 assault mechs), they can at least try to emulate this. And thus, weight limits.

Edited by ssm, 27 November 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[SniperCon]

WarHippy, on 27 November 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

That is because these "competitive" people don't actually care about being competitive. Weight limits do two things and that is give lighter mechs that people feel are inferior the illusion of being "competitive" by forcing people to play them, and weight limits take options off of the board be eliminating team comps and strategies people might want to try like all lights or all heavies.

I want to see a bigger variety of mechs on the battlefield as much as anyone, but I want to be given a reason to field them rather than being forced to field them by some arbitrary weight limit.

At the end of every match the person who fields the rarest 'Mech / loadout gets a cookie.

[Joseph Mallan]

SniperCon, on 27 November 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

At the end of every match the person who fields the rarest 'Mech / loadout gets a cookie.

Being that you are a Capellan, Would you be willing to face the reality that your House had little to no Heavy Mech production capacity, not to mention Assaults (St Ives was supplying the FedCom not house Liao).

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 November 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[SmithMPBT]

stjobe, on 26 November 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

And is that really the direction we want the game to take? More reasons not to drive a light?

No, we need more reasons to take our sub-60 ton 'mechs on the field; more reasons to do so and be a productive and contributing team member. And the only way to do so is to have some sort of role warfare in place before tonnage limits - to do it the other way may well spell doom for MWO.

I agree tonnage limits is a bandaid but a true role warfare setup would result in PGI laying out a vague multi year plan with missed deadlines, mixed results and a delay to CW.

[ssm]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Being that you are a Capellan, Would you be willing to face the reality that your House had little to no Heavy Mech production capacity, not to mention Assaults (St Ives was supplying the FedCom not house Liao).

I really, really hope that you're joking.

[Sandpit]

ssm, on 27 November 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Also, in BT lore there is one simple reason that people field light/medium mechs - because most of the time they are only mechs availble. And because it's not possible to directly translate it into MWO (as most of us already have at least 1-2 assault mechs), they can at least try to emulate this. And thus, weight limits.

It has more to do with military structure actually

IF my 21st bravo lancers are a light to medium unit and it's on that particular planet for garrison duty, then that's all that is readily available to defend should an attacking force invade. The reinforcements that come in (if it's a serious assault into taking over the planet) will be much heavier

[SniperCon]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Being that you are a Capellan, Would you be willing to face the reality that your House had little to no Heavy Mech production capacity, not to mention Assaults (St Ives was supplying the FedCom not house Liao).

You can do a lot with ravens and blackjacks. We do manage to scrape together a Cataphract on good days.

[Joseph Mallan]

SniperCon, on 27 November 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

You can do a lot with ravens and blackjacks. We do manage to scrape together a Cataphract on good days.

yes you can... I may not, but others are amazing in Ravens an Blackjacks!

Yes you do

[ssm]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

It has more to do with military structure actually

IF my 21st bravo lancers are a light to medium unit and it's on that particular planet for garrison duty, then that's all that is readily available to defend should an attacking force invade. The reinforcements that come in (if it's a serious assault into taking over the planet) will be much heavier

Yup, but given the relative rarity of heavies and assaults in BT the bulk of actual combat still would be between light/medium mechs (and reinforcments you mentioned probabably have to cover several systems)

Edited by ssm, 27 November 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[WarHippy]

ssm, on 27 November 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

BT is just like this - sometimes you need to be good at piloting inferior mechs.Competitive teams will be ok - they'll just have to adapt. And while it'l make some people sad, the game will be better.

Adapting is what the people that currently want to field lighter mechs should be doing now. Trying to slug it out with heavies and assaults isn't working for them so instead of adapting they just want to change the playing field so others have to play the way they want them to. Will the game be better for it? Hard to say, but given that different people find different things enjoyable one can only assume that it will assuredly not be better for everyone.

ssm, on 27 November 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

Also, in BT lore there is one simple reason that people field light/medium mechs - because most of the time they are only mechs availble. And because it's not possible to directly translate it into MWO (as most of us already have at least 1-2 assault mechs), they can at least try to emulate this. And thus, weight limits.

Because Lore! Is not a good argument given that lore would prevent us from doing a lot of things we do in this game like customizing our mechs the way we do.

[Almond Brown]

And I believe I read where we will be buying Union class Drop-ships. So if the Contracts weight limit was to exceed that of what the one Union DS you own can haul, support gear aside, then a Team (say on a multi-planet based Contract run) where getting reserves just ain't happening will have to own/buy more Unions to carry the extras.

Logistics ftw.

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 November 2013 - 09:20 AM.

[ssm]

WarHippy, on 27 November 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Adapting is what the people that currently want to field lighter mechs should be doing now. Trying to slug it out with heavies and assaults isn't working for them so instead of adapting they just want to change the playing field so others have to play the way they want them to. Will the game be better for it? Hard to say, but given that different people find different things enjoyable one can only assume that it will assuredly not be better for everyone.

Well, this game is about sluging out. You can't outslug something that by design has more guns, armor, and only a slightly worse mobility. Simply - playing field is wrong now (as Assaults are effectively easymode), so it has to be changed. And weigh limits are step in right direction.

Only thing that could possibly properly balance Assaults/Heavies against mediums is severely nerfing their mobility. And I mean severely, not "-10% torso twist range" but "negate most of the pilot skill bonuses"

Quote

Because Lore! Is not a good argument given that lore would prevent us from doing a lot of things we do in this game like customizing our mechs the way we do.

I agree, but for a lot of people lore still counts.

Edited by ssm, 27 November 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

ssm, on 27 November 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

I really, really hope that you're joking.

Why would I be?

On TT A house Kurita unit was equipped with Units specific to The Dragon and ha a few Star League Era Mechs for flavor. Only WoB and the Dragon had Kentaros at this time

Atlas-K Are a Kurita only build
Atlas-D-DC is a Steiner Only build

Jagers were nearly a Davion only Mech

Catapults were mostly a Kurita and Liao Mech But some survived from the star league era in other houses.

So yes, I am serious as a heart attack.

[aniviron]

Anuerysm, on 27 November 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

You are also assuming that EVERYONE wants to play heavy tonnage mechs, in every match. I run a medium, and I love it. I have 1 Med, 2 Heavy, and 1 assualt I like to run, and that's what I have avail. I'm happier in my Medium, but the others are good fun for me too. This means I can bring from 55tons, up to 85tons.

If you only have Assualts that you will run, and play, then you'll be matched up with others running lighter mechs. It's not like the game is going to send you a message saying you can't play your mech you signed up to run because it's over the weight limit. You just wouldn't drop with that group.

Well, given the fact that every single survey of player numbers done in the last eight months has put light mechs at between 10-15% of the player count and mediums at about the same, it's not a bad assumption that almost everyone wants to play heavy mechs or higher.

[Roadbeer]

No... as much as some Lorewhores want it, they're not going to take away all your mechs to make them house specific.
Though there may be pricing changes in regards to house production (Having to buy "black market" rather than factory direct)

[NRP]

Anuerysm, on 27 November 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

You are also assuming that EVERYONE wants to play heavy tonnage mechs, in every match. I run a medium, and I love it. I have 1 Med, 2 Heavy, and 1 assualt I like to run, and that's what I have avail. I'm happier in my Medium, but the others are good fun for me too. This means I can bring from 55tons, up to 85tons.

Isn't that what started the whole "OMG we need tonnage limits!!" debate, because the the game is Assault Warrior Online?

Quote

If you only have Assualts that you will run, and play, then you'll be matched up with others running lighter mechs. It's not like the game is going to send you a message saying you can't play your mech you signed up to run because it's over the weight limit. You just wouldn't drop with that group.

A lone Assault facing several lights is a terrible game play experience - for the Assault pilot. Assault are good at fighting other big mechs, but it sounds like "tonnage limits" will mean a few Assaults must continually face a swarm of lighter, faster mechs. This is going to suck for the Assault pilot, and it would seem to indirectly discourage playing Assaults.

Anyway, this sounds like a terrible idea. However, I'll wait to see how it plays out before I make a decision.

[Fut]

NRP, on 26 November 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Hmm, if "tonnage limits" mean I can't play the mechs I want to play, then I guess I'd be out too.

I really don't get this attitude. Were you an only child growing up or something? You seem incapable of taking turns.
Tonnage limits doesn't necessarily mean that you'll never get a chance to play the (apparently) one and only Mech you love. It might mean that you don't get to play it in every single drop though. It'll all come down to figuring out the Mechs with your entire team.

Examples:
- You loves you an Atlas, and play nothing else. You launch into a game and see that the other players have selected lights/mediums/heavies and there's still 200 tonnes left to play around with. You select your Atlas, and the remaining players have 100 tonnes to divide up for Mech selection.

- You're still uberloving on your Atlas. you launch into a game and see that you're the last one in the lobby, everybody has selected their Mechs and you're down to 90 tonnes that you can use. Damn, looks like you'll either have to convince somebody to change their Mech and free up some tonnage for your Atlas, or you might just have to <gasp> select a different Mech for this drop.

Tonnage limits shouldn't turn anybody off of this game, not unless their incredibly selfish at least.
Having said that though, I don't think that Tonnage Limits alone are going to be enough to balance out the popularity of the different Mech sizes. As other's have already said, PGI still has to improve the whole Role Warfare thing, but this is a small step in the right direction.

Lastly, I'm really hoping that PGI makes this Tonnage Limits a dynamic part of the game. Changing up the limits for different planets, different areas on those planets, a bit of randomization...etc...etc.

NRP, on 27 November 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

A lone Assault facing several lights is a terrible game play experience - for the Assault pilot. Assault are good at fighting other big mechs, but it sounds like "tonnage limits" will mean a few Assaults must continually face a swarm of lighter, faster mechs. This is going to suck for the Assault pilot, and it would seem to indirectly discourage playing Assaults.

Umm.. This is sort of exactly how the lore for this IP is. Assaults were nowhere near as popular in the books as their are in MWO. They were expensive to build, fit, repair...etc. An Atlas was a rare and fearful thing to see in battle. In MWO it's rare to see less than a couple on each side of the battle.

The tonnage limits aren't discouraging playing Assaults, they're just guiding the teams to the place that they should have been all along. Keep playing Assaults when you can, maybe you'll make a name for yourself and people will actual switch to lighter Mechs to allow you to take out your Atlas.

Edited by Fut, 27 November 2013 - 09:39 AM.