269 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Caswallon, on 27 November 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Agreed!
Ah hah appeals to the "Lore" I Like it!!

"Warning Blatant Reference to "Lore" incoming, Warning probably irrelevant point incoming!"

(That was fair wasn't it? - been warned)

So the problem in my opinion with the AC20 is the same problem as ALL the AC's in MWO. Reading the source material and especially the Books we see things like "storm or metal" over and over again giving the impression that multiple slugs fire with every AC shot.

MWO has NEVER done this so in effect the MWO Ac's are totally different weapons to the ones in the Lore/Books etc. We all need to remember that. Now they work perfectly acceptably to me don't get me wrong but I have often felt SO MANY problems would have just gone away had the PGI followed the weapons descriptions in the "Lore" rather than porting them from earlier versions of Mechwarrior.

One example then I'm done and will clear the thread.

AC 20's If they fired a burst of 3 X 7 point shells the problem goes away. You get 20 (OK 21! I can count) points of damage at their effective range ONLY IF you get all three directly and exactly on target. Allowing for those with fast reflexes and or luck to evade one or two thirds of the damage. at 2X range drop one shell for a 14 point hit IF both shells connect. At 3X range drop two shells

Other Ac's would scale similarly.
Ac10 = 3X 4pt shells or 3X 3.3pt shells if you want to be pedantic
AC5 = 3X 2pt/ 1.7pt shells
AC2 = 3X .7Pt shells or there abouts.

So simple, gets rid of the huge concentrated damage, still feels even MORE like dakka I would guess. Oh and Ultra ACS just fire a 6X burst of the above Theoretically doubling stuff but only if you keep the shell stream exactly and precisely on target. They would also lose more than one shell per range step to provide balance.

My hopes and dreams, it'd never get considered by our glorious leaders now so rant over apologies for the time waste

Not everyone wants all weapons to be DpS I for one want my Front Loaded damage weapons to augment my DpS weapons. the faster the opposition dies, the quicker I can drink my next beer!

[OmniJackal]

I think all AC are too good except for the LB10x. With the death of the PPC metagame, AC is now the way to go. My bread and butter are still lasers but I have more mechs now using AC just to keep up because they're better than lasers in every way except ammo use. Best example is I have a Jester with x6 ML for 30 alpha and a Ilya Muromets with x3 LB10x for 30 alpha and both have XL engines (355 and 280 respectively). With me as a diehard catapult pilot, I am doing on average 300+ dmg more with the Ilya per match. If I just compare catapults, I do an average of 400+ dmg per match more with my K2 than any of my other 4 catapults. AC get too much ammo per ton, don't generate enough heat, and shake the screen/obstruct view way too much. It wouldn't be as bad if there weren't explosions, smoke, and screen shaking preventing you from accurately firing back but what exactly is the point of lasers anymore if they do none of those things in return? 5dmg for 1 ton? Yeah that's great until you can't even see who you're firing at because every target is hitting you with rapid firing AC2-AC20.


Queue AC apologists.....now

Edited by OmniJackal, 27 November 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

OmniJackal, on 27 November 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

With the death of the PPC metagame

Some might disagree on this...

[aniviron]

FupDup, on 26 November 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

The only change the AC/20 might need is to have their maximum range cut down to lower than 810 meters to indirectly help out the AC/10. That's about it.

I'd almost go so far as to say that the entirety of the ballistic class could deal with having their triple range bonus toned down a bit. Not too much, but it's a bit silly right now.

[Sandpit]

It amazes me how people can't figure out how to overcome a weapon that's virtually useless outside of 500 meters.

Identify the threat
Everyone shoot the threat
Keep shooting the threat outside of 500m
Prioritize the target with your team


It's not rocket science guys

[Joseph Mallan]

That's how we used to deal with GaussPults an StreakCats!

[stjobe]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

It amazes me how people can't figure out how to overcome a weapon that's virtually useless outside of 500 meters.

I wouldn't say 10 damage at 540m (or 20 damage from a dual AC/20) is "virtually useless". Hell, it's more damage than an AC/10 at that range (AC/10 does 9 damage at 540m).

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Identify the threat
Everyone shoot the threat
Keep shooting the threat outside of 500m
Prioritize the target with your team

It's not rocket science guys

It's not rocket science, but it is dependant on you having a load-out that does more than 10 damage at 540m; a medium laser does zero damage at that range, a large laser 8 points, an AC/10 does 9 points, and so on. You may still find yourself outgunned at twice the effective range of the AC/20, even with medium-range weaponry.

The 3x range for ballistics make the AC line needlessly powerful, including the AC/20.

[FireDog]

The AC20's are Not too good! Its just every other large hard hitting weapon has been nerfed down to mediocrity making them shine. DOT weapons have their place just like instant hit weapons should have theirs.

[Dan Nashe]

I think they made I high dps to compensate for range and weight.
However, it is far easier to keep an enemy under 300 meters in mwo than tabletop and weight means a lot less because of hardpoint restrictions. It doesn't matter if the ac 10 weighs less If I hate missiles and only have 2 or 3 energy slots.

Also: it underestimates the value of alpha and pinpoint (why 2 ac 2s dealing 8 dps are worse than 1 ac20).

Personally, I agree it's the best weapon in the game too noticeably. But, we don't need new mechanics to fix every problem.
Rather than rewriting code, start with something simple and in character: increase recycle time to 5 seconds.

That's a nerf that doesn't require big changes and keeps the flavor.

[Sandpit]

stjobe, on 27 November 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I wouldn't say 10 damage at 540m (or 20 damage from a dual AC/20) is "virtually useless". Hell, it's more damage than an AC/10 at that range (AC/10 does 9 damage at 540m).


It's not rocket science, but it is dependant on you having a load-out that does more than 10 damage at 540m; a medium laser does zero damage at that range, a large laser 8 points, an AC/10 does 9 points, and so on. You may still find yourself outgunned at twice the effective range of the AC/20, even with medium-range weaponry.

The 3x range for ballistics make the AC line needlessly powerful, including the AC/20.

It's still only one mech with rather light armor and movement limitations. It's not fast (check out my SHawk if you want an AC20 you shoudl be concerned with. AC20, fast, AND I can jump right up over your head and chew up your rear armor)

4-5 mechs concentrating fire on that one mech and poof, no more threat. It's not up to PGI to make things "easy" or "fair" it's up to PGI to make things "balanced". There's a huge difference. Players have every opportunity to counter builds like this. It's not "OP", it's a bad mama jama that requires attention to beat without losing half your limbs to it

[MeiSooHaityu]

I have no problems or complaints with the A/C20 as it stands. I think the only reason it seems wide spread is because the Blackjack champion is popular right now. Outside of that mech and Jagers, I tend not to see it used too much.

The A/C20s short optimal range and extremely limited ammo seems like a reasonalble limitiation.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

It's still only one mech with rather light armor and movement limitations. It's not fast (check out my SHawk if you want an AC20 you shoudl be concerned with. AC20, fast, AND I can jump right up over your head and chew up your rear armor)

4-5 mechs concentrating fire on that one mech and poof, no more threat. It's not up to PGI to make things "easy" or "fair" it's up to PGI to make things "balanced". There's a huge difference. Players have every opportunity to counter builds like this. It's not "OP", it's a bad mama jama that requires attention to beat without losing half your limbs to it

Thank You!!!

[dustNbone]

The theme here seems to be that AC20s do too much damage beyond their intended range of 270m, and the fact that they can do more damage per shot at 540m than an AC10 makes them all kinds of OP. I have used ACs of all sorts predominantly since I started nearly a year ago, and the AC20 is NOT my long range weapon of choice. I think very carefully about taking a shot beyond 300m with it, as, though you may be correct about it's damage potential at higher range, it fires ammo that weighs more than twice as much, nearly half as often. It's a really, really crappy AC10 at that point, noone brings an AC20 so that they can fight hard at 540m. If you're getting killed by AC20 rounds at 540m, yes sir you need to learn to play.

Dustin

[stjobe]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

It's still only one mech with rather light armor and movement limitations. It's not fast (check out my SHawk if you want an AC20 you shoudl be concerned with. AC20, fast, AND I can jump right up over your head and chew up your rear armor)

That wasn't the point I was arguing against. You said it was "virtually useless" at 500m, when in fact it does 20 pin-point damage out to 540m.

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

4-5 mechs concentrating fire on that one mech and poof, no more threat.

Well, using that metric nothing is ever overpowered or unbalanced, so that's a rather silly argument. Team play trumps all, of course, but does that mean nothing's ever overpowered or unbalanced?

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

It's not up to PGI to make things "easy" or "fair" it's up to PGI to make things "balanced". There's a huge difference.

Indeed, I agree completely. However, the question wasn't whether it was "easy" or "fair" that the AC/20 does more damage than an AC/10 at the outer edge of the AC/10s effective range, it was whether it was balanced.

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Players have every opportunity to counter builds like this. It's not "OP", it's a bad mama jama that requires attention to beat without losing half your limbs to it

And again, that doesn't in any way preclude that the AC/20 in fact is overpowered or unbalanced. The exact same argument has been made to defend each and every single OP weapon in each and every single iteration of every PvP game in history; "L2P", "just do X". I was told the way to avoid being killed by StreakCats in my Commando was to stay more than 270m away from it; I was told the GaussCat wasn't OP because I could stay out of sight of it, and so on and so forth.

Yes, each and every OP weapon can be defeated in some way, especially with team play. That does not mean they're not OP or unbalanced.

[Sandpit]

stjobe, on 27 November 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

That wasn't the point I was arguing against. You said it was "virtually useless" at 500m, when in fact it does 20 pin-point damage out to 540m.


Well, using that metric nothing is ever overpowered or unbalanced, so that's a rather silly argument. Team play trumps all, of course, but does that mean nothing's ever overpowered or unbalanced?


Indeed, I agree completely. However, the question wasn't whether it was "easy" or "fair" that the AC/20 does more damage than an AC/10 at the outer edge of the AC/10s effective range, it was whether it was balanced.


And again, that doesn't in any way preclude that the AC/20 in fact is overpowered or unbalanced. The exact same argument has been made to defend each and every single OP weapon in each and every single iteration of every PvP game in history; "L2P", "just do X". I was told the way to avoid being killed by StreakCats in my Commando was to stay more than 270m away from it; I was told the GaussCat wasn't OP because I could stay out of sight of it, and so on and so forth.

Yes, each and every OP weapon can be defeated in some way, especially with team play. That does not mean they're not OP or unbalanced.

And yet here we are debating whether or not it's OP. Mine is that it isn't. OP? OP was LRMs when their cluster was so tight and they hit your head and torso any time they were fired. THAT'S an example of something being OP.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sand though I do agree with you for the most part, StJobe has a good point. An AC20 should not be able to deliver more damage than an AC10 in the AC10s Long range bracket. At the longer ranges an AC10 should out gun an AC20 for proper balance.

Quote

Yes, each and every OP weapon can be defeated in some way, especially with team play. That does not mean they're not OP or unbalanced.

Then wouldn't that mean the weapon is not, in fact OP?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 November 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Sandpit]

I understand your opinion on it. I understand why you have your opinion. That doesn't mean I agree with it. We all play the same game with the same mechs and the same weapons.

We all have different opinions on those same mechs and weapons. For ever "OP" opinion there's an "UP" opinion. For every "This mech is worthless" opinion there's a "This mech is great!" opinion.

If things are really OP, unbalanced, etc. PGI will tweak those settings to balance it. You're stating your opinion in hopes that the DEVs listen to it and swing things your way to make it more enjoyable for you. I'm stating mine in hopes that they listen to me and keep thing about where they're at now.

Neither of us is right or wrong, we just have different opinions on it. I respect yours but prefer mine

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Sand though I do agree with you for the most part, StJobe has a good point. An AC20 should not be able to deliver more damage than an AC10 in the AC10s range bracket. At the longer ranges an AC10 should out gun an AC20 for proper balance.



Then wouldn't that mean the weapon is not, in fact OP?

That would be the ONLY thing I would say adjust if it's true. The damage drop off should remain consistent with other short range weapons. This doesn't make it "OP" though.

[Taemien]

Ewigan, on 27 November 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

Actually i wouldn't change the max range of the AC/20.
why? Well, if you wanna shoot it for ten or less damage with the bulletdrop, sure go ahead.
you only get 7(8?) shots a ton, so go on and waste your ammo!

The ac/10 is a different topic though. i would up the range of it a bit... but that's about it.

btw: Gauss is still a good weapon, just get used to it.

See.. this is where the math doesn't quite work out. It kinda does and kinda doesn't. And here's why.

When you have two Assault mechs gunning at each other, 8-10 dmg isn't much. But then again, you can close with an assault mech pretty easily without them getting away. Thats not the problem.

The problem is medium and lights being engaged at longer than 270m. Hit a medium or light for 8-10 dmg, and you're hitting them as hard as you would an assault for 20. You can tell the mediums and lights to stay out of 270m and they do. But they are still being hit for a good amount of damage. They don't have the tonnages to mount weapons that go much further than 540m. Heck they don't have much to hit with beyond 270 (SRMs, Medium Lasers, ect). So they have to use hit and run, but the run part is being mitigated by the 271+ capability of the AC20.

I think that is where the majority of complaints are coming from. Remember 1 mech = 1 mech. So that is why that 8-10 dmg is actually more devastating than what it looks like on paper.

This is why I suggested lowering the max range of the AC20 to 270m period. And then up its rate of fire to compensate. This way it stays the king of weapons in the 270 bracket, but isn't devastating smaller machines beyond that range. Thats the AC10's job instead. Right now the AC20 is a threat to lighter machines in the medium range bracket and it shouldn't be.

[stjobe]

Sandpit, on 27 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

And yet here we are debating whether or not it's OP. Mine is that it isn't. OP? OP was LRMs when their cluster was so tight and they hit your head and torso any time they were fired. THAT'S an example of something being OP.

No, that's an example of a bug. Quite a different thing than a balance issue.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Sand though I do agree with you for the most part, StJobe has a good point. An AC20 should not be able to deliver more damage than an AC10 in the AC10s Long range bracket. At the longer ranges an AC10 should out gun an AC20 for proper balance.

In the game where all this started, an AC/20 did zero damage at over 12 hexes (360m). That was still only in the long range bracket for the AC/10, which delivered its 10 damage out to 20 hexes (600m).

And if you didn't use extreme range rules, the AC/20 did zero damage over 9 hexes (270m), which was medium range for an AC/10 (6-10 hexes, or 180-300m).

Of course, range had another effect in TT, causing the AC/20 to be harder to score a hit with than the AC/10 at ranges over 3 hexes (90m, short range for the AC/20 - the AC/10 had a short range of 1-5 hexes, or 150m).

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Then wouldn't that mean the weapon is not, in fact OP?

No. Being overpowered does not mean "has no counter", it means "this is overly powerful compared to some baseline".

[TercieI]

Every time an enemy fires one of his precious 1/7 ton rounds at me from 500 yards, I smile. Round-per-round, it outdamages an AC/10, but ton-per-ton, it's not close. It's a waste of an AC/20 shot.