63 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Hit Detection - Hurts SRMs.
Ridiculous Counters - Hurts LRMs (in serious play)

PPC Boat - Killed by PPC heat.
Laser Boat - Killed by Ghost Heat
Short Range Missile - Destroyed by hit detection & Ghost Heat
Long Range Missile - Easily countered by knowledgeable players most of the time.

AC/5-20 are the least punished by Ghost Heat (sure AC/20 takes the WORST modifier, but it's easier to deal with chaining just two AC/20s) and also move fast enough that they detect better, and don't have systems that can wipe out half their firepower - like AMS.

Ballistics are kings currently because the competition is terrible, mostly due to poorly implemented systems and incredibly stupid Ghost Heat logic.

Edited by Victor Morson, 28 November 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Victor Morson, on 28 November 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Ballistics are kings currently because the competition is terrible, mostly due to poorly implemented systems and incredibly stupid Ghost Heat logic.

It's been this long, and yeah... Ghost heat still causes a great many more problems than it solved. Not like this is a surprise to anyone.

[FupDup]

Oh, and another thing. The fact that beam duration counts against laser cooldown time is another nerf to lasers. A Medium Laser takes almost as long to recycle as a PPC does.

[Sahoj]

My most dangerous mech is still my 9 medium laser HBK-4P - to the point that I keep it on the shelf unless I am in a competitive drop.

I do not think energy weapons are inferior.

I do think the low damage/poor hit detection of SRM's hurts energy builds since they're normally such an excellent compliment for a low-heat damage alternative in a brawl.

The issue in my opinion seems to be that viable builds are:
All Ballistics
All Energy
A combination of Energy and Ballistics.

Ballistics never combo'd well with SRM's because of the added ammo allocation and inefficient heat use - to me.

Cheers,
Sahoj

[Fooooo]

stjobe, on 28 November 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

1. Increase dissipation to give energy weapons more breathing room in this insane heat system of ours.
2. Rework ballistics to burst-fire to reduce their "all damage to one location" advantage over all other weapon systems.
3. Redesign the PPC to a beam weapon like it should be (and not the faux-ballistic it currently is).

With that done, re-evaluate TTL and if it's still too low, either rework convergence or introduce a cone of fire.

^^
This

Or fixing / removing convergance somehow is basically the solution to a hell of a lot of problems with weapon balance......... at least IMO.


Its funny that a lot of this was suggested very early in CB.............Hell even before F&F it was being suggested in the forums to do basically all of your post instead of using convergance.....................

PGI even had a post basically asking if people wanted convergance or not, before they even had it in game. Well, asked what way people would prefer or something along those lines.....

Im pretty sure thats what started the whole discussion about convergance / RNG in aiming etc etc in the first place.

Edited by Fooooo, 30 November 2013 - 11:46 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

stjobe, on 28 November 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The Gauss Rifle would be the weapon I'd want to see as the sole pin-point weapon. It is a one-slug weapon in lore, whereas the PPC is a beam weapon in lore.

PPC does damage to a single hit location. k?

SARNA.NET said:

In addition, unlike lasers that have a beam duration, PPC bolts concentrate their full damage into a single location on an enemy 'Mech.

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 01 December 2013 - 12:20 AM.

[aniviron]

SRMs are garbage, and will remain so as long as hit detection is bad. LRMs will always be negated by staying near cover, which good players do anyway. SSRMs are nice, but since they only come in 2 flavour right now, they're restricted to mechs with 3 missile hardpoints or more to be effective.

Lasers don't have great hitreg right now either, but it's better than SRMs at least. Medium lasers are pretty good, as there are only a handful of builds that get hit by ghost heat, and even though they run hot, it's hard to argue with 5 damage for 1 ton. slas are too short range to be useful, llas get hit hard by ghost heat. PPCs are great, but run too hot to run 2 or more with any other energy weapons or missiles; they pretty much have to be paired with ballistics.

Ballistics register well, do all their damage to one place, and weigh an ungodly amount. Every mech with enough ballistic slots to really take then in quantity doesn't have the weight to do so without making huge sacrifices. So almost every competitive loadout right now has either a pair of AC2/5 or an AC20 + 2 PPCs or a handful of medium lasers.

[Tahribator]

aniviron, on 01 December 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

Ballistics register well, do all their damage to one place, and weigh an ungodly amount. Every mech with enough ballistic slots to really take then in quantity doesn't have the weight to do so without making huge sacrifices. So almost every competitive loadout right now has either a pair of AC2/5 or an AC20 + 2 PPCs or a handful of medium lasers.

Ballistics surely weigh a lot and need ammo, but they don't need as many heatsinks. You can get away with 10 for most B heavy builds just fine. If you want lasers as your main weapon, you need at last 5-12 extra heatsinks to be somewhat efficient. So I wouldn't say laser builds have an advantage of lower tonnage.

Edited by Tahribator, 01 December 2013 - 01:25 AM.

[Mack1]

Tao1st420, on 26 November 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

So, I like to play energy builds quite a bit, but it seems that after trying to fix ppc spamming with the crazy heat index that energy builds are just a waste of time (with the possible exception of lighter mechs). It seems to me the ppc's could have been solved by adding weight or slots to them without nerfing other energy builds by having this crazy heat algebra going on. Perhaps the beam weapons just need some adjustment, idk. Perhaps it's a tactics problem on my part. Ballistic weapons are supposed to be nasty good weapons, but it seems lopsided at this point. Am I the only one thinking this?

Don't worry about it, the usual moaning cry babies will flood the Devs inbox about AC pretty soon and the Devs will react in their usual way with a huge sledge hammer nerf that totally ruins ballistics for a few months.

[stjobe]

Captain Stiffy, on 01 December 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

PPC does damage to a single hit location. k?

No, it doesn't; at least no more than a laser does.

Quote

The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy.[3] Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of a higher-caliber autocannons; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor.[4] Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors.[5] The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.

- http://www.sarna.net/wiki/PPC

Sarna also comes with this nice illustration, does that look like a bolt or slug to you? The image caption says "PPC fired by Timber Wolf - notice characteristic helix around the stream of particles"

[GalaxyBluestar]

Prosperity Park, on 28 November 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

The problem isn't really the strength of the Heatsinks, but rather the picking-and-choosing of what TT rules to carry into MW:O.

Since heat dissipation is still based on the 10-second interval, then energy weapons are "balanced" to be used continuously ONLY if you intend on using them, on average, once every 10 seconds. However, since ballistic weapons are not very limited by heat, they can successfully be used much more frequently than once/10 seconds. Therefore, energy weapons are designed specifically to be used once or twice prior to disengagement from combat, whereas ballistics can be used constantly until the enemy is either dead or chooses to disengage (or you choose to disengage).

Ballistic weapons let you take advantage of the increased firing rates given to all weapons in MW:O, but energy weapons are still restricted to abide by the slow heat dissipation of an environment where they are only supposed to be used once every 10 seconds. That's why ballistics are better than energy weapons in MW:O.

in B4 you're lectured about "tradeoffs" but yeah GH is just an on/off switch for which weapons class controls pinpoint alpha spaming.

Mack1, on 01 December 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

Don't worry about it, the usual moaning cry babies will flood the Devs inbox about AC pretty soon and the Devs will react in their usual way with a huge sledge hammer nerf that totally ruins ballistics for a few months.

soon tm

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 01 December 2013 - 03:23 AM.

[Urdasein]

Balistics:

High DPS
High weight
High Salvo, pinpoint dmg
Long range
Low Heat, esay to reach 25+sec sustained fire but cant put many because of weight / volume
Screenshakle & blind smoke: scramble ennemy ability to return fire
Need for ammo taking same weight as need for DHS in energy, but taking 3x less crit slots.
Bullet travel time

Energy:

Low dps
Low weight but can't put many because of heat.
Lasers salvo spray over time.
Medium range
Hight heat, difficult to reach 25+sec sustained fire.
No screenshake, little heat.
No bullet travel time with lasers, just with PPC)

----------------------------------------------

I don't use lasers nor PPCs. Too much heat, no screeshake, no stopping power... But i would love to see them viable cauz my gameplay is quite monotonous right now ^ ^.

So buff lazors or nerf balistics but ATM it is quite unbalanced.

IMHO, high pinpoint salvo should have less dps and damage over time weapons should have a more bigger dps. It is not normal that the high salvo-pinpoint-screenshaking weapons also have the bigger dps.


PGI answer (fake)
Anyway, who cares of unbalance ? Just use lasers, you will loose and when your ELO will be low enough, you will be wit players as bad as you and the lasers will be usable again. Working as intended.

Edited by loupgaroupoilu, 01 December 2013 - 04:12 AM.

[Turist0AT]

Tao1st420, on 26 November 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Am I the only one thinking this?

No, PGI likes its Nerf Hammaer, thats the result we are seeing. The only vieble weapon left is Balistics.

But you wait, they nerf Balistics too sooner or later. But the fact is that balitstics is VERY heavy and religh on ammo wont bother them, just like it didnt bother them that energy were already hot before intruducing Ghost Heat.

[FupDup]

Captain Stiffy, on 01 December 2013 - 12:19 AM, said:

PPC does damage to a single hit location. k?
[/size][/font]

Too bad Sarna doesn't actually say that. If you go to the real PPC page, you would see this:

Sarna ACTUALLY said:

The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy.[3] Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of a higher-caliber autocannons; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor.[4] Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors.[5] The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.

PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.[6] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range.

[Fate 6]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 November 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

The only reason this is true is that we are still hampered b how effective ECM is on Missiles. Otherwise we could take the holy trinity without fear that 1/3 our firepower is dead weight.

Or, ya know, SRMs could actually do SOMETHING when they impacted a mech.

FupDup, on 01 December 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

Too bad Sarna doesn't actually say that. If you go to the real PPC page, you would see this:

While MechAssault's PPC lock-on mechanic was a bit odd, I do think the particle was pretty close to dead-on to what was original envisioned.


Right now maps like Terra make it unrealistic to carry more than 3 large energy weapons. You simply can't fit enough DHS in the mech to make it useable. And I think people ignore the most significant flaw of the heat system when they get frustrated over 1.4DHS. We have diminishing returns from our heat sinks. Every one we put in gives us less and less, so not only are they not true DHS, but they are not even 1.4.

Edited by Fate 6, 01 December 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[krolmir]

I would have to ask that people please stop blaming convergence for all their problems in this game. Here is why.

Convergence is both your best friend and your worst enemy, everyone is affected by it, for better or for worse. The reason TT had no convergence initially, was because of how it was played. Chose weapon to fire, roll the dice for hit or miss, factor modifiers; then roll the dice again to figure out where it was hit at.
This is where many will say that TT had a faux Cone of Fire effect, which is kind of true until targeting computers came out with clans. That is where that theory gets blown out of the water. With a TC you called the weapon, then location, and rolled a hit or miss roll.

The real wonder of TT was that even an all energy build could be heat neutral; while I do not advocate heat neutrality in MW:O for anything, it points out our real culprit. The Heat scale, it caps around 100 - 120 before shutdown, the old TT heat scale capped around 30 I think. So that allows for 3 or more pinpoint alphas before shut down. So what we need is a more hybrid system with a cap around 50 with much better heat dissipation per second. Then even a mech like the AWS-9M can Alpha once, than switch to chainfire to continue firing in a prolonged engagement.

In lore the only time a pilot would alpha was when he was so hard pressed that there was no other choice; because of the current heat system, we now play Alpha Warrior: Online. Alpha-alpha-alpha then run away, waiting to cool off so you can do it again; unless of course, your on an all ballistic platform. So people say if you increase cooling they benefit as well. True, but you can tame them by altering their rate of fire, you can also increase the heat just a bit.

I just dislike all the rage against convergence I see popping up in most threads. If we were to take convergence out all matches they would boil down to up close slug fest, where the winner is determined by which mech can slap out the most damage the fastest. Match time would need to be increased because of general inaccuracy, causing C-bill earnings to drop. Light mechs would end up either being totally overpowered or totally gimped and useless. That isn't skill, that's not tactical, that's just herp-derp trigger pulling.

However, a parallax effect, could be and should be a factor in this game. Parallax is the difference in angle between the targeting reticule location and the weapons muzzle location, this causes the weapon to suffer inaccuracy's at certain ranges. Parallax also affects weapons fire when firing weapons from several locations, causing the fire to be spread out at closer ranges converging at a certain point, and spreading out again beyond that point.
Now, according to lore even torso mounted weapons are mounted in pods that allow them to swivel about a bit in the chassis, my suggestion is base the amount and speed of movement on the size of the weapon. Smaller weapons will pivot faster and farther than heavy weapons. This makes timing, lead, and firing discipline very important; while still keeping convergence as a useful skill to be mastered, not exploited, in game.

Edited by krolmir, 01 December 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[krolmir]

Oh, another nerf to energy in MW:O versus TT was all the damage went to one location in TT, beam duration effectively didn't exist.

Edited by krolmir, 01 December 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[Black Ivan]

Indeed. Lasers in TT rules were entirely different. PGI broke the entire damage system with their laser approach.

[Murphy7]

Black Ivan, on 01 December 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Indeed. Lasers in TT rules were entirely different. PGI broke the entire damage system with their laser approach.

I am typically a proponent of TT in these discussions, but here I have to side with the decision PGI made. The beam duration and potential to spread the damage is a good, effective translation to the simulator aspect of the game.

Lasers are hitscan weapons, and with controlled aiming, an instant application of damage from lasers would make them the supreme weapon for all occasions. Better than PPCs and Gauss (old) with their projectile travel speeds.

Ghost heat would not ameliorate that, which is itself another argument against ghost heat as a balancing mechanic.

[stjobe]

Murphy7, on 01 December 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

I am typically a proponent of TT in these discussions, but here I have to side with the decision PGI made. The beam duration and potential to spread the damage is a good, effective translation to the simulator aspect of the game.

Lasers are hitscan weapons, and with controlled aiming, an instant application of damage from lasers would make them the supreme weapon for all occasions. Better than PPCs and Gauss (old) with their projectile travel speeds.

Indeed, making lasers beam-duration weapons is arguably the best thing PGI has done so far. I just wish they'd go all the way and make ACs bursts fire and the PPC a beam weapon too; then we'd just have the Gauss as instant-damage weapon and that's fine.

It would solve a lot of issues in one fell swoop and then perhaps they'd have the time to have a look at the real culprit behind their balancing woes: Their heat system.

Edited by stjobe, 01 December 2013 - 01:49 PM.