63 replies to this topic

[King Arthur IV]

i only mount 1 JJ on most mediums and above.

i have always found it more then enough for my uses and i would have to agree with this post that, yes 1 jj is op.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Captain Stiffy, on 30 November 2013 - 11:40 PM, said:

WHAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM?

You dont play 12s, are you?>

[Amsro]

FupDup, on 30 November 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

More jets make you fly up faster and farther.

They should do so in a linear fashion, right now 2+ JJ is meh.

[Lucian Nostra]

as an avid poptarter I agree, 1 jet provides to much while more jets add to little.

[Mavairo]

JJs are about 50 percent too effective on a single JJ.
And their efficiency drops far too much to add multiples. Which allows people to just load up on bigger weapons, and maintain pop tarting.

When I play my Victor with their single JJs I face palm just about everytime I hit the JJ button and see how high the mech leaps. JJ effectiveness needs a definite nerf on single JJ.

[Burke IV]

Ok so i thougth i would fit some JJs and actually find out whats going on On a trebuchet i cant tell the difference between 1 jet and 5 jets. It was sometihng of a wtf moment.... poptarting is kinda fun tho, i feel it temping me to bring stupid builds out to play.

[A Man In A Can]

I agree. This subject needs to be looked into in a future balance pass. Builds with more than 2 jets need to feel like they are gaining a significant enough increase in mobility for each additional jet to justify putting more on. Though not too much such that you have 5Vs entering orbit. The point at which diminishing returns should start is around 6 jets so that there is not much difference between 11 and 12 jets, but the difference between 8 and 12 jets is still noticable, and the difference between 1 and 5 jets is significant but not in a way that invalidates builds with 1-2 jets. Such a system I think would be a happy medium for everyone.

[Svidro]

I would be a sad panda having to fit all the extra JJ on my JJ mechs, but yes, that would start going a small way towards balancing poptarting as well. Every ton or two of JJ power is one less for heat sinks and ammunition that go into making the current JJ builds work.

As many others have said, being in a JJ mech at the moment is kind of a freebee from a design point of view, and it really shouldn't be (grats on being a JJ capable mech, here's your 400+ damage). I would go so far as to say they should increase the landing damage as well if you don't maintain some thrust to slow your descent on those assaults. All the extra weight required to be all the poptart you can be would give a little something back to the regular grunts. Hell, I might start playing a mech without jump jets again some day.

[Wintersdark]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 November 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

I've used more than 1 jumpjet. It's not worth losing the firepower over.

ever.

This.

The reality is that one jump jet gets you full mobility. Even a HGN with a single jet has no trouble jumping clear over an Atlas in a brawl - even if you don't technically get quite enough height to technically clear it, collision being what it is there's no problem jumping over one.

Everyone else jumps more off a single jet than a highlander, but a highlander with a single jet can get pretty much anywhere effortlessly with that jet.

I wish this wasn't the case, but it's been my experience that most who claim you need max/more JJ's are people who've never spent much time playing with just one and have either looked at the numbers or just assumed that one jet won't get you high enough. It's simply not true. While you can make use of 2-3 effectively if you're specifically poptarting, you don't even need it then (and I'm strongly of the opinion that the tonnage required to add more jets to an HGN in particular is *NEVER* worth it). I can poptart extremely well with just one even there.

I've never been in a situation where, with one jet, I couldn't get somewhere I wanted to go but having a second or third jet would have made all the difference.

[sC4r]

well jumpjets could generate some heat...

like now they will kick your heat to about 15%+- and doesnt do anything beyond that... it doesnt produce anymore heat, doesnt slow heat dissipitation nothing

[Artgathan]

sC4r, on 06 December 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

well jumpjets could generate some heat...

like now they will kick your heat to about 15%+- and doesnt do anything beyond that... it doesnt produce anymore heat, doesnt slow heat dissipitation nothing

Actually, if you equip Single Heat Sinks and jump they generate a significant amount of heat. However this just highlights how useless single heat sinks are.

[Clit Beastwood]

JUMPJET GHOST HEAT

[aniviron]

I'm amazed this thread isn't getting more attention. More than anything else, this would kill the potart meta (not that we wouldn't still have an AC + PPC meta) but there would be so much less jumpsniping. This would do it more than introducing jj shake, which only works on the way up.

Making someone take more than one jumpjet to poptart would mean requiring that pilot actually make sacrifices in terms of weight and crits to do it. I'm sure there would still be people who would poptart, but at least they would have to take less ammo or a few less heatsinks to do it, making this a good tradeoff between jumping or not. Right now, having one jumpjet is so good that there are no mechs capable of taking one that don't. Some take more, but most serious builds do not.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 November 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

I've used more than 1 jumpjet. It's not worth losing the firepower over.

ever.

My VTRs all use 2 JJs because the extra DHS isn't as helpful.

[HeavyRain]

One JJ should be able to get a heavy/assault mech off the ground for a couple of meters, making it usable for rapid turning in a brawl. If you want to shoot over that 4-storey building or giant rock in front of you, you should need 3 or more of those.

[Twilight Fenrir]

arghmace, on 28 November 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Some time ago I ran some tests with jump jets. With Jenners and Ravens the first JJ gave you thrust up to 23 meters. Each consecutive JJ gave just 5 meters more. With Catapult the first JJ gave you 27 meters and each consecutive JJ gave you 6m more.

I really think that every JJ should be as efficient. So if you for example can jump 40 meters up with 4 JJ's, having just one JJ should give you only 10 meters of thrust - not around 25 as it does now.

Why is the first JJ so much better than the rest? This has lead us to the point where most players just use one. Having just 1 critical slot and for most mechs .5 or 1 ton (only HGN has 2 ton jets) invested makes JJ capable mechs SOOOO much better than non-jumpers for a very very small investment.

If a single JJ wouldn't be as ridiculously good as it is now, this game would be much more balanced. Wanna jump high? Pay for it.

But... that's how things work o.o

If you double the horsepower in a car, you don't go twice as fast. The faster you go, the more force it requires to exert significant change. So, the first jumpjet would have the greatest impact in your performance, and every JJ after that would give diminished returns.

[Hillslam]

Got news for folks: been using full jjs in all my victors and hgns and poptart just fine. I'm primarily a brawler and felt no disadvantage there either with full jj. One less weapon doesn't matter.

I wouldn't mind this change but people shouldn't expect much to change.

Edited by Hillslam, 07 December 2013 - 07:23 AM.

[Bors Mistral]

Twilight Fenrir, on 07 December 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

If you double the horsepower in a car, you don't go twice as fast. The faster you go, the more force it requires to exert significant change. So, the first jumpjet would have the greatest impact in your performance, and every JJ after that would give diminished returns.

First, for the purposes of the topic we are not talking about a car, but a vary non-aerodynamic bipedal rocket.
Second, it's freaking BattleTech, so let's forget about realistic and focus on gameplay and fun.

At the moment, multiple jump-jets affect (insufficiently) jump length, height, speed of ascent and heat.
At the moment, multiple jump-jets have no impact on rotation speed in the air, forward momentum and screen shake.

So, in addition to the general "1JJ should give you a bit less length and height and more JJ should give you more" that prevails in this thread (and that I agree with) I suggest the following:
1. Rotational speed in the air with only 1JJ equipped should be lower than turn speed on ground. Additionally, each extra JJ you install should boost that and at max JJ it could be even higher than it is now.
2. The forward momentum should increase with each JJ installed. On one hand, this will enable mechs with lots of JJ to gain small bursts of speed for evasion and other purposes. On the other hand, with the effects of having a single JJ reduced, this will make pop-tarting more difficult.
3. Following the above, having a lot of JJ should increase screen shake a bit with each jet.

On top of that, those things can further differentiate per chassis quirks too. It's nowhere close to what I think the complete functionality of Jump Jets in this game should be, but it should be a fairly easy first step to implement.

[Diego Angelus]

Why not put JJs as one and make it hevier/bigger and what not depending on JJs class something along the line of mechcommander 2.

[Galenit]

In tt you have 30m jumprange per jumpjet.
I would like to mix the physical solution with the tt rules.

For an highlander with 90m jumprange with 3 jumpjets, this could look like
35m, 65m, 90m (35, 30, 25).
For a jenner with 5 jjs, 150m:
40, 75, 105, 130, 150 (40, 35, 30, 25, 20)


Heat should be per second of use and noticeable,
like 0,5 heat a second per jj ton.
(Small 1t jumpjets 0,5 hps, big 2 ton jumpjets 1 hps)

This would give the highlander with 3 big jjs 3 heat a second and our jenner with 5 small jjs 2.5 heat a second using them.


About rotationspeed:
Rotation should be slower in air, but increase with every jumpjet after the second.
(1jj - 10% rotation speed, 2jj - 5% rotation speed, 3jj rotationspeed is the same then grounded, 4 and above 5% rotationspeed for each (this will give a spider with 8 jjs +25% rotation in the air)

About momentum:
A downscaling effect seems to match here.
This will make jumpsniping harder, but will prevent abuse with lots of jjs.

Edited by Galenit, 07 December 2013 - 08:11 AM.