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Ppc Jump Ppc Jump Ppc Jump!


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#41 Adiuvo

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 November 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

The why is due to the amount of heat that 8+ jets should be generating, and firing weapons while thrusting a 35 ton vehicle into the air would create so many Gees I doubt anyone could actually aim the cross hairs. Imaging trying to hit someone with a paintball gun while riding one of those sling shot rides at Cedar Point! Be a crack shot on that and I will agree that Pop Tarting is fine.

You're concerned about realism, I'm concerned about balance. The game already has concessions on the former. Battlemechs aren't a realistic combat platform and many would collapse based solely on their size and proportions. Also, g-force is a measurement of acceleration. Weight doesn't really have anything to do with it.

There isn't an actual problem with poptarts right now. The problem comes from the weakness of brawling, which itself is only weak due to the problems with SRMs.

#42 Hellcat420

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:22 PM

'Mech Jump Jets

By harnessing the power of a 'Mech's fusion engine to superheat air or another suitable fluid, Jump Jets allow a BattleMech to briefly overcome gravity and rocket short distances over the battlefield.
[edit] Operational Details

Jump jets work in a similar, albeit more limited, fashion to the fusion rockets installed on Aerospace Fighters. Inside a magnetically shielded reaction chamber buried deep inside the 'Mech, an electron beam superheats a reaction mass and expels the expanding gases through nozzles located on the back of the 'Mech or in its legs. Reaction mass is commonly provided in the form of air forced into the reaction chamber by a system of turbo-compressors, but most 'Mechs have a small amount of alternate reaction mass, usually in the form of hydrogen, water or mercury, in order to facilitate operation in a vacuum and to reduce the wear on the jets from superheated oxygen when in an atmosphere that contains it[2]. The reaction mass provided by an atmosphere is effectively infinite, but the supplementary reaction mass carried on-board is limited by the number of thruster assemblies installed unless additional tankage is added to the 'Mech[3].
Because of the heat produced by jump jet activation and limited on-board fuel, jump jets can only maintain thrust for a few seconds. A far cry from flight, jump jets nevertheless allow a 'Mech to make short leaps sufficient enough to outmaneuver 'Mechs not similarly equipped or bypass obstacles and unfavorable terrain[2][1]. Care must be taken when jumping, however, as jumping causes heat buildup with even the shortest jump generating more heat than running, and damage to a 'Mech's gyro or leg actuators and joints can cause a 'Mech to fumble upon landing[4]. Owing to the inability of liquids to be compressed, submerged jump jets cannot be used lest the extreme pressure rupture the jet's casing[2][4].
[edit] Attacks by a Jumping 'Mech

Jumping makes a 'Mech harder to hit, but the accuracy of weapons fitted to the jumping 'Mech is also adversely affected[4]. In addition to standard weapons fire, a 'Mech with jump jets can perform a combat maneuver known as Death from Above, which involves it jumping into the air and attempting to land on an opponent. A successful DFA has the potential to crush an opposing 'Mech's head, but the maneuver risks damage to one's own 'Mech even if the attack is successful[5]. Another attack that has been known to be performed using jump jets nicknamed the "I Am Jade Falcon" maneuver uses the jets in a 'Mech's legs to torch an adjacent hostile[6].

here is how jumpjets work. somethign to remember is that the battletech universe is not about perfect spacemagic robots like gundum or other goofy {Scrap}. its supposed to be flawed tech that has almost as many limitations as it does advantages(more so for the innersphere since most of their stuff is antiques).

Edited by Hellcat420, 29 November 2013 - 06:22 PM.


#43 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:22 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 29 November 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

You're concerned about realism, I'm concerned about balance. The game already has concessions on the former. Battlemechs aren't a realistic combat platform and many would collapse based solely on their size and proportions. Also, g-force is a measurement of acceleration. Weight doesn't really have anything to do with it.

There isn't an actual problem with poptarts right now. The problem comes from the weakness of brawling, which itself is only weak due to the problems with SRMs.

I'm concerned with the realism of combat. A basically ground vehicle being launched in to the air is not going to be as accurate as one that is moving on the ground. There are things than should be bent and other things that should not. Running around at 150KpH then jumping into the air and hitting a pie plate is something only the very best players should be able to do. So unless you are the 1%... You are not that good.

I personally don't have a problem with Pop Tarts, just the mechanic of it offends my experience and combat training.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 November 2013 - 06:24 PM.


#44 Mystere

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:24 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 November 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

A Spider on TT had to decide whether to jump 8 or Jump 6 and fire. Jumping and firing while in mid jump did not happen you jumped then fired once you landed.


TT rules were made to fit a 1980's board game, which were subject to limitations faced by both the medium and the period in question. But it's now 2013 and as such it might be time for BT to evolve.

Now, whether the Mechwarrior series of games are a step in the right direction is subject for further discussion. B)

#45 Adiuvo

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:28 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 November 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'm concerned with the realism of combat. A basically ground vehicle being launched in to the air is not going to be as accurate as one that is moving on the ground. There are things than should be bent and other things that should not. Running around at 150KpH then jumping into the air and hitting a pie plate is something only the very best players should be able to do. So unless you are the 1%... You are not that good.

They have already implemented jump jet shake and weapon inaccuracy on JJ fire. That's enough of a drawback.

Again, why do you think it shouldn't be possible to fire when using JJs? Is it unbalanced?

#46 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:32 PM

View PostMystere, on 29 November 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:


TT rules were made to fit a 1980's board game, which were subject to limitations faced by both the medium and the period in question. But it's now 2013 and as such it might be time for BT to evolve.

Now, whether the Mechwarrior series of games are a step in the right direction is subject for further discussion. B)

TT rules were rewrote 10 years ago, and as such have been improved. There is much contention on forums about Pop Tarting where there is no problem on TT. So which rules need to evolve? ;) :)

View PostAdiuvo, on 29 November 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

They have already implemented jump jet shake and weapon inaccuracy on JJ fire. That's enough of a drawback.

Again, why do you think it shouldn't be possible to fire when using JJs? Is it unbalanced?

It should be possible for the 1% that is the best only, as very few characters were able to perform such stunts. Not your average Joe could jump and fire in this universe.

#47 Mystere

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 29 November 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

There isn't an actual problem with poptarts right now. The problem comes from the weakness of brawling, which itself is only weak due to the problems with SRMs.


I think the problem is more fundamental. Players would rather complain incessantly than use their brains to find a solution to a gaming problem. It's just much easier to do so.

It's almost just like endlessly complaining about their very corrupt government instead of doing something about it (e.g. not reelecting the same clowns over and over again, or starting a revolution). B)

Edited by Mystere, 29 November 2013 - 06:41 PM.


#48 Adiuvo

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 November 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

It should be possible for the 1% that is the best only, as very few characters were able to perform such stunts. Not your average Joe could jump and fire in this universe.

The average pilot would have been piloting a medium mech as well. You would see maybe 1 or 2 assaults at most, typically none. The Locust would be the most common mech.

#49 Val_Z

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:41 PM

Guys, adding heat to JJ doesn't have to affect lights at all. Quite simply, there is 5(? or maybe 4) classes of jump jets.

The smaller lighter JJ used on lights should add little to nothing in heat for them. This maintains the manouverability and threat of light mechs.

As the mech's weight goes up, the JJ assosiciated with that weight add more and more heat, until you get to assault mechs, where in pilots need to make the tactical decision to either jump/manouver/run away/avoid damage, or to fire back/attack, or to do both and over heat on landing.

Then all you need to do is up the internal damage by overheating a bit, and you wont see highlanders poptarting.

They will still be a strong mech, keep the same manouverability and firepower, but wont be able to poptart. Then, when they hit you with 2 ppcs and 2 ac/5's, you will actually have a chance to hit them back with lasers or the like.

I personally dont have an issue with any of the poptart weapon combos, what i have an issue with is the largest mechs in the game being able to hit my lighter and faster mech, and me not being given the chance to hit them back.

Edited by GHoppa, 29 November 2013 - 06:43 PM.


#50 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 29 November 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

The average pilot would have been piloting a medium mech as well. You would see maybe 1 or 2 assaults at most, typically none. The Locust would be the most common mech.

You never even had this mix on TT. In 28 years playing I have seen 15-20 Locusts, But hundreds of Atlases.

IIRC the Wasp was the most prolific Mech in Universe.The Locust claims to be... one of the most produced so I can be wrong. B)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 November 2013 - 06:50 PM.


#51 Mystere

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostGHoppa, on 29 November 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Guys, adding heat to JJ doesn't have to affect lights at all. Quite simply, there is 5(? or maybe 4) classes of jump jets.

The smaller lighter JJ used on lights should add little to nothing in heat for them. This maintains the manouverability and threat of light mechs.

As the mech's weight goes up, the JJ assosiciated with that weight add more and more heat, until you get to assault mechs, where in pilots need to make the tactical decision to either jump/manouver/run away/avoid damage, or to fire back/attack, or to do both and over heat on landing.

Then all you need to do is up the internal damage by overheating a bit, and you wont see highlanders poptarting.

They will still be a strong mech, keep the same manouverability and firepower, but wont be able to poptart. Then, when they hit you with 2 ppcs and 2 ac/5's, you will actually have a chance to hit them back with lasers or the like.

I personally dont have an issue with any of the poptart weapon combos, what i have an issue with is the largest mechs in the game being able to hit my lighter and faster mech, and me not being given the chance to hit them back.


TLDR: Get rid of the ability of assault mechs to poptart.

#52 Val_Z

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:47 PM

TLDR version:

Get rid of all mechs ability to pop tart with 30+ point alphas. Most meechs will still be able to poptart, but the bigger the mech, the signifcantly less damage will be done by attacking that way.

And the game will be forever better for it.

Edited by GHoppa, 29 November 2013 - 06:48 PM.


#53 Adiuvo

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:49 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 November 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

You never even had this mix on TT. In 28 years playing I have seen 15-20 Locusts, But hundreds of Atlases.

If we're not talking about lore and instead TT, then why the disagreement? Every pilot can jump and fire in TT. +3 modifier per the classic Battletech rulebook.

#54 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:54 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 29 November 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

If we're not talking about lore and instead TT, then why the disagreement? Every pilot can jump and fire in TT. +3 modifier per the classic Battletech rulebook.

In lore (Canon) Locusts have been in less books as Atlases.Every Pilot can Jump, Land facing any direction he chooses and adds a +3 to hit on any target he has LoS on, from the hex he lands in. If you wanna use the full description of how Jumping works in Universe. B)

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 November 2013 - 06:54 PM.


#55 Hellcat420

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 07:03 PM

people need to start looking at how mechs actually function as a whole. the 2 biggest problems in this game that will never allow it to be balanced are the amount of customization we are able to do to mechs, and how they implemented mech aiming like the mechs are dudes in cod running around aiming as fast as we can pull the trigger. that is not how mechs were made to function in this universe.

#56 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 07:10 PM

I think the biggest problem that confronts this game is the heat system/Cyclic rates. On TT I could make a balanced build by sacrificing a few secondary or tertiary weapons for more sinks/armor. My Atlas Build right now would be heat neutral on TT. All of my builds would have been!

#57 Hellcat420

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 07:13 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 November 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

I think the biggest problem that confronts this game is the heat system/Cyclic rates. On TT I could make a balanced build by sacrificing a few secondary or tertiary weapons for more sinks/armor. My Atlas Build right now would be heat neutral on TT. All of my builds would have been!

but heat neutral mechs are the antichrist and would make the game melt!!!!!!!!!!!!

have an awesome meme for this but at work so cant post it=(

Edited by Hellcat420, 29 November 2013 - 07:16 PM.


#58 RichAC

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 07:13 PM

I can't use ppc's for the life of me. too hot, I can't hit anything with it, miss most of my shots.

I find it much easier to use gauss and lasers in my cataphract. I'm useless with ppc's.... gauss is much easier to aim and has low heat. I tried really hard to practice with ppc's to no avail.

#59 SmurfOff

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 29 November 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

A Spider on TT had to decide whether to jump 8 or Jump 6 and fire. Jumping and firing while in mid jump did not happen you jumped then fired once you landed.


Not quite, you still took a movement penalty for jumping... a little fuzzy on the modifier (silly warhammer rules in my head right now). This could be addressed by some of the convergence fixes that have been proposed, but instead we get whirly whig + modules to fix.

And in theory, actions in a turn where "simultaneous" but you still had to land before the end of movement and before firing.

#60 Bobdolemite

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 12:28 AM

Has weapons, can jump? Can fire while jumping (IMO)

You can try to rationalize away jumping and shooting by using examples from TT, but as you see in a realistic real time environment, where people can make snap decisions, jumping and shooting becomes a common thing.

Chalk it up to a lack of imagination from the original write up, or as a deliberate attempt at making mechs more ground borne by TT creators.

In a dynamic environment with real people moving around a real map, the idea of jumping and shooting is a given. Arbitrary rules would have to be placed to change this and these would have little logic if implemented.

Jumping and shooting is not a reserve of the elite, but a tool in a box available to all (who pilot a jj capable mech) and to argue otherwise is to ignore very obvious/basic concepts.





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