13 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Hey there new folks! Today, I wanted to bring up a term you no doubt seeing get brought up all the time in these threads and in-game, but have no official documentation, tutorials or UI to support: Ghost Heat. It is my hope that in this guide, I will tell you how to cope with it, circumvent it's entire purpose (legally), and explain a few tricks & tips I've picked up along the way.

Part 1: What actually IS Ghost Heat?

In brief, when you fire too many weapons of the same category, you begin incurring massive heat penalties not apart of that weapon's official statistics, starting from the hottest weapon. I'll get into more detail on this later. It resets one half second after the last gun was fired, so if you fire - wait - fire, it won't trigger. There is no UI so you have to time this manually or look into setting up a Macro.

It's goal was stated to lessen "pin point damage" and it originated when 6 PPC Stalkers were the newbie 'mech of choice (4 for veterans) and the build was out of control. It continued, despite some over-reactive mech changes, until PPCs were actually fixed because Ghost Heat is actually very bad at this goal.

In fact, in the course of this guide, you'll see Ghost Heat will punish many low-damage alphas, while doing absolutely nothing to many very high damage alphas. Again, I'll address that in a proceeding part.

Part 2: The Official Explanation

Prepare yourself for a detailed explanation to a system that most of us [ There have been repeated polls to remove this from the game since it's inception ] absolutely despise, and I personally feel is the absolute most poorly thought idea to even make it into the development phase, let alone release, I have seen in my entire time playing multiplayer games:

Paul's "The Maths" of Ghost Heat:
http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/

You get all that? I assure you, it's not a parody. Now: How to deal with it (and a far more simple way to see what's linked).

Part 3: What it really does

In reality, Ghost Heat is effective at killing a few previously useful builds, in particular damaging energy configurations far more than most, short of AC/2s (which are highly punished in groups of 4 or more.)

For example, you cannot cooly fire 4 Large Lasers as the limit is 2. While you could stagger-fire the large laser, the burn time + the delay time means you will get far, far more spread out laser damage and be unable to compete with current meta builds.

Thus, Ghost Heat's real result is making you find weapon combinations to bring the highest alpha to the table, without creating extra heat.

Part 4: Examples - Good & Bad

Let's look at some combinations (more on how the guns link in the next part) to give some idea of what you need to do to design optimal 'mechs:*

3+ Large Pulse Lasers - [BAD] - 31.8 Alpha: The 3rd Large Pulse Laser up will begin causing massive heat, which increases exponentially. You could run a 3 LPL build without noticing it blatantly, but you would become EXTREMELY hot at 4. Either way you are taking a heat hit that'll add up fast.

2 LPL, 1 AC20 - [GOOD] - 41.2 Alpha: Notice that despite having a far higher amount of damage at a similar range profile, this build has absolutely no Ghost Heat.

3x LRM10 1x LRM20 - [BAD] - 50 Missiles: If you try firing this configuration in a single salvo (optimal for countering AMS as chain fire is very bad at it), you will gain the heat from four LRM/20 on top of overheating. This is because missiles are capped at a limit of 2, excluding the LRM/5, and it will always default Ghost Heat to the hottest launcher.

2x LRM20 2x LRM5 - [GOOD] - 50 Missiles: Note that in this configuration, you can fire just as many missiles with absolutely zero Ghost Heat, without even using more hard points. There are many combinations of missiles that work along similar lines.

2 ER Large, 2 Large Pulse Lasers - [BAD] - 39.2 Alpha: Because all Large Lasers are grouped into the same mix despite the radically different usage between ER Large and LPLs, this build will overheat massively, gaining the heat of 4x Ghost Heat if fired at once. (ER Large and LPLs have the same heat output.)

2 ER Large, 2 PPC - [GOOD] - 38.0 Alpha: However for the loss of just over a single damage point, you can negate all of that entirely and fire this combination in a single shot without generating any Ghost Heat. While it will alter your build towards range more, you also won't accidentally fry yourself if you fire all of your guns within the same half second.

3x SRM4 1x SRM6 - BAD - 18 Missiles: Firing this will cause you 4x SRM6 Ghost Heat and make your 'mech run extremely hot immediately, as SRM4s & 6s are linked.

3x SRM6 1x SRM2 - GOOD - 20 Missiles: Firing this configuration, however, will cause you absolutely no heat problems as the SRM2 is not linked, and 3 is the cut-off for SRMs.

There's plenty more, and in the next part, I'll address how you can find these limitations out.

* These are not all recommended gun configs, just examples of how Ghost Heat work / doesn't work.

Part 5: So how do I get information on how to build around this since it doesn't inform you anywhere in game?!

Fortunately, our community has you covered where PGI's tutorials and interface do not: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/. You'll find a complete list of linkages and their heat penalties on that opening page if you scroll down.

Look for which guns are linked and which are not; in general, you'll want to avoid putting on any guns over a limit that are linked up, as this can cause you massive heat feedback if they are fired in the same half second window.

Part 6: I am running a config with Ghost Heat anyway; how do I use it?

There are a number of configurations that are popular that still use Ghost Heat. For example, twin AC/20s - they have the worst heat penalty in the game, but the half second delay impacts two, big, on-target cannons far less than other weapons.

You have two ways to go here. One, you can count a half second to yourself and take a mental note of how far the other AC/20s recycle bar has to go before you can safely fire with trial & error, or you can install a Macro.

Macros are currently legal in MW:O, and are often accessed from your keyboard or mouse hardware. These macros can be set with exact timing, to allow one group to go after another; i.e. someone running 6 Large Lasers on a macro could set all 6 to fire, 2 at a time, precisely .5 seconds after the last.

It's a bad recommendation (and one I don't use as I just plain avoid Ghost Heat builds) to need an external program, but as again there is NO in-game UI to tell you when it's safe to fire, it's your only option to avoid accidental self-frying.

EDIT: I recommend you put a different AC/20 on each trigger with the twin AC/20 example, rather than Chain Fire, as it will give you tighter control over which side you fire (useful around corners) and prevent accidental double click 'mech meltdowns.

Part 7: Conclusion

Feel free to ask me questions about this most unpopular of systems, and I will be happy to reply. This is the worst system for new folks to have to deal with as it has zero documentation, warnings or even an interface, and the mechlab heat won't reflect it; it doesn't even warn new players it exists.

Still I suspect a lot of you are wondering why your 'mechs are overheating, and this might very well be the answer. If anyone reading this hasn't had 25 posts yet, I fully encourage you to search Ghost Heat on the forums once you are able to read them, as there is a ton of information (and several forum riots) around the subject that might also help you.

Again, it's a really bad system but with creative 'mech design it can be outright negated; in the end, all it does is really stifle some moderately effective builds in the end. The PPC boats of the past couldn't exist today, with the new heat scale, so maybe one day Paul may realize it was a bad the worst idea in the game and remove it.

In the meantime my goal is to help new folks cope with it. I'll be checking in on the thread to answer as many questions that arise over the next few days.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 November 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[Redshift2k5]

Firing 4 AC2s is fine, just don't try any monkey business to try and fire them at a stagger-fire pace to try and fire them faster than every .5 seconds.

4 AC2 technically has a heat penalty but it's 0.18 heat. AC2s see bizarre heat penalties only when you use weird groups or methods to try and fire them in intervals less than the specified minimum interval (such as trying to fire a shot every .25 seconds)

And 4 PPCs was never exactly a 'creative' build.

Edited by Redshift2k5, 29 November 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[Racklesnack]

Definitely something new players should read since there's nothing in game to explain ghost heat.

[Victor Morson]

Redshift2k5, on 29 November 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Firing 4 AC2s is fine, just don't try any monkey business to try and fire them at a stagger-fire pace to try and fire them faster than every .5 seconds.

4 AC2 technically has a heat penalty but it's 0.18 heat. AC2s see bizarre heat penalties only when you use weird groups or methods to try and fire them in intervals less than the specified minimum interval (such as trying to fire a shot every .25 seconds)

AC/2s are generally bad anyway and already very, very hot even before penalties, so adding onto the possibility of them bugging out and making that even worse is a real hard sell, esp. since the AC/5 doesn't even link and runs far cooler. But you are right in that you could probably run 4 AC/2s if you were careful to ALWAYS group fire all of them.
Even then though, they've been wonky from all accounts.

Redshift2k5, on 29 November 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

And 4 PPCs was never exactly a 'creative' build.

I agree, but it was also pretty legitimate and would be hellishly hot with today's PPC stats.

My bigger concerns, however, are things like 3-4 Large Lasers and the ludicrous missile linking system, etc., when it comes to eliminating builds. I had many, many designs centered around 3 Large Lasers as the primary firepower until GH came to town.

[Redshift2k5]

Heat penalties don't prevent you from making builds. They only prevent you from making big alphas. For example, four large lasers, fired in pairs, still works great.

[Victor Morson]

Redshift2k5, on 29 November 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Heat penalties don't prevent you from making builds. They only prevent you from making big alphas. For example, four large lasers, fired in pairs, still works great.

Big alphas are the name of the game. 4 Large Lasers is somewhat usable (and I almost brought it up in the section with the twin AC/20s) but is a shadow of it's former glory.

Without using a macro to time it, the firing delay between the first and last 2 lasers is more than enough time for the pilot to react, turn, and make you waste your second blow into a heavily armored, poor area. Even with the macro this is rough.

Can you do well in it? Possibly. Is it highly unstable? Definitely. Is it reliable at hitting where you want? Not anymore, not with that delay in the middle + the already existent beam duration.

It is almost universally better to run weapons that tip-toe around the absolute limit, in a combination to bring you the highest alpha, in MW:O.

[ EDIT: Also the examples page pretty clearly shows many of the "high alphas" you are prevented from making are far, far lower than the "high alphas" you aren't stopped from making. ]

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 November 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[White Panther]

4 ERLL can work on a stalker, it requires a lot of discipline to run it properly though. I think that large lasers are "alright" in general these days, no weapon seems to be totally overpowered but there are definitely weapons that can use a buff (eg. pulse lasers).

[Victor Morson]

The gun itself isn't a problem.

4 ER LL can work on a Stalker, but that's incredibly light firepower for an 85 ton 'mech I think. Maybe on a Battlemaster since you could get that going very, very fast at least.

Still, the optimal way to run that would be with a Macro. Even with discipline, you'd probably get much tighter DPS when it counts out of it, free from the risk of mistake. Most successful LL boats out there today do it.

EDIT: For those curious about Macros and why they are legal: Macros don't actually edit or do anything to the game, at all. They are basically just executing set keyboard commands, at the player's behest; all it does is read from your settings and plays them back on your keyboard, and most keyboard/mouse software has the option today.

That way you hit the "Macro 1" button, and it will fire Group 1, then .5 seconds later group 2, and so forth, once setup. That way you aren't risking going under .5 and cooking, or over and losing DPS.

... me personally? I gave up on LLs to not deal with this, or the unstable risk they pose when not macro'ed.

Edited by Victor Morson, 29 November 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[White Panther]

The purpose of that build is to inflict early damage from very long ranges, which pays off later in the match. It's not meant to be a brawler or used for any sort of flanking or fast attack since it cannot put out enough DPS at close range. For this purpose, more speed is useless and it would never be good to use a battlemaster simply because of its profile, take advantage of the high guns on the stalker.

Edited by White Panther, 29 November 2013 - 05:23 PM.

[Mycrus]

Good write up Vic..

http://mwomercs.com/...-of-the-closet/

I like GH because it effectively took us out of the
Pee pee cee and goosewaffle meta..

That meta hurt the game much much more than 3PV ever will...

though in thread I linked it was pointed out to me that the gauss desynch and the er ppc debuff could have been responsible for shaking the meta and not GH.

Prior to GH, I had only a handful of mechs that could have been impacted by it... I like running balanced builds (balance of short range / long range / speed on a single build).. Vic calls these builds "frankenmechs"... Me? I have the brain cells to run 6 weapon group settings...

[Victor Morson]

Mycrus, on 29 November 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

I like GH because it effectively took us out of the
Pee pee cee and goosewaffle meta..

Mycrus, on 29 November 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

though in thread I linked it was pointed out to me that the gauss desynch and the er ppc debuff could have been responsible for shaking the meta and not GH.

I definitely agree with the second quote. When Ghost Heat first came out, a LOT of the newbies overreacted and dropped PPC Stalkers entirely; thus there was a sharp reactive drop to the PPC game.

However, the people who DIDN'T change became Gods: PPC + Gauss Highlanders were the most powerful they'd ever been, surprisingly, in PUGS then. If you had a team with 11 non-meta Highlanders and 2 Meta Highlanders, it was like watching a clash of Gods amongst a sea of peasants. It was crazy.

PPC meta didn't go, at all, until PPCs were adjusted to be hotter and slower: Which were the changes undone that made them vastly OP in the first place. That is when things changed for their dominance.

Basically what I'm saying is Ghost Heat failed entirely at it's objective, but fixing the gun fixed the gun.

Either way I'd rather avoid debate about the mechanic so this doesn't get moved to some discussion forum, when it's purpose is to help new people cope with an unseen, hidden system that has a major impact on the game.

Edited by Victor Morson, 30 November 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[JC Daxion]

All it sounds like is they need to add more combo's to the code to getting it working correctly... to me the idea of it is solid, the game want's you to slow down your firing, and get away from these crazy alpha strikes with no penalty. and turn out damage over time, making fights last longer, than one pop shots..

the game is moving in a nice direction.. I wonder how this will tweak over the next 6 months..

good tutorial for new players

Edited by JC Daxion, 03 December 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[Victor Morson]

JC Daxion, on 03 December 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

the game want's you to slow down your firing, and get away from these crazy alpha strikes with no penalty

Unfortunately it's designed very poorly at that, thus the recommendation to simply shift up the combinations to get around it. There were a lot of ways to deal with the same problem and this was the roughest one.

Even though I hate the mechanic, though, the bigger sin is not providing any UI or warning to new players in mechlab OR in game, which is why I thought this thread needed to be up. It's a huge, complicated, screwy system that is literally hidden from all but those of us that are the "hardcore" reading forums and smurfy's all the time!

[Koniving]

Alternatively to get around ghost heat, simply pack on ghost heat and ignore it within reason. Example, 3 PPCs fire at once. Wait a bit longer to fire again. Example, 2 AC/20s. Just pause a bit before you fire again.

But what happens when 2 AC/20s faces off against 3 PPCs?

I found out.



Minor language warning. >.>