127 replies to this topic

[Asmudius Heng]

aniviron, on 07 December 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

I'd like to see the MG denerfed after that last patch that lowered their crit rate. They were finally useful, and as much as I hate the idea of a crit-seeking weapon, the MG was not only destroying crits, it was also dealing damage once the enemy was opened up. I'm fine with MGs having a pathetic 1dps against armor, but only as long as they're dealing close to 3dps to internals like they were before.

Tightening and/or removing the spread from them would go a long way, too. I'm not sure why the MG is the only weapon in the game that doesn't go where you fire it.

Exactly. If they are going to make it a niche weapon for ripping internals make it good at its job.

Niche weapons have a great place in this game and adds something tactical on deciding your role an builds of mechs.

At the moment i still think MGs are a little off what they need to be to be internal rippers that PGI seems to want them to be - but it only needs a slight bump up i think or we might go overboard!

[stjobe]

Yiazmat, on 08 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I think I may be the reason that they were nurfed. They were buffed, considerably. To the point I was doing this:

on a very regular basis. People were on the forums with pitchforks and torches, up in arms that the lowly spider was ANNIHILATING people.

A very big part of the reason was that the Spider was really hard to register damage on

Yiazmat, on 08 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

And to be honest, it was a bit much. I could get behind a victor, hit him with my Med.Pulse and open up with the MG's, by the time the Med.Pulse would fire again, it would destroy his L/R torso, XL would pop, and he's dead. Yeah, Literately 3 and a half seconds of fire on a rear torso.

3.5 seconds? A MPL does 12 damage in that time, and 4xMG does 14. Is 26 damage enough to chew through the Victor's 20 points of rear armour and 34 points of internals?

Yiazmat, on 08 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

This was due to the component-crit-to-structure damage transfer. As you'd shoot MG's at an open structure, your hits would do damage to said structure, and also each hit would hit 1-3 of the items (components, IE, weapons, heatsinks, ECM, ammo) Whenever you hit a component inside, some of the damage of the hit would go REAPPLY to the structure. It was AWESOMELY high. like 30-50%? I forget. It's like 15% now, which still makes it nice to blast out open segments on mechs.

It was 15% then also, but the crit damage multiplier was 12.5 and it was that which was nerfed to 9.0. What that multiplier means is that a single crit went from 0.1 times 12.5 (1.25) damage to 0.1 times 9.0 (0.9) damage.

Now only 15% of that damage re-applied back to IS, so that went from 0.1875 extra IS damage to 0.135 extra IS damage.

So a triple crit would do 0.1 + (3 * 0.135) = 0.505 damage to IS, and (3*0.9) = 2.7 damage to a component.

The numbers aren't impressive, but it actually took the MG from 2.4 DPS vs internal structure to 2.03 DPS, and was enough to make the weapon feel underpowered again.

Yiazmat, on 08 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

But I could get behind an open Atlas DDC with his ECM, 3 SRMS 6's and a DHS packed in the left torso, cirt them all out in about 2 seconds and the torso/arm itself would fall off in about 4 seconds.

4 seconds again. 28 damage. Enough to chew through about 20 points of rear armour, crit out 42 points of internal structure, and destroy that side? I think not. The math just doesn't support your claims.

Yiazmat, on 08 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

IMO, I'd like to see the MG's damaged buffed another .1 or .2 and keep the same crit modifier it has (which is lowish). It would give MG's a little more punch at the end of a match, moping up wounded mechs.

I'd like to see the spread gone and if that's not enough I'd like a small damage buff. But you have to understand that there's several factors determining the damage of the MG, not just base damage, but also the crit damage multiplier and the amount of damage being re-applied to IS.

Edited by stjobe, 08 December 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Yiazmat]

stjobe, on 08 December 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

A very big part of the reason was that the Spider was really hard to register damage on


3.5 seconds? A MPL does 12 damage in that time, and 4xMG does 14. Is 26 damage enough to chew through the Victor's 20 points of rear armour and 34 points of internals?


It was 15% then also, but the crit damage multiplier was 12.5 and it was that which was nerfed to 9.0. What that multiplier means is that a single crit went from 0.1 times 12.5 (1.25) damage to 0.1 times 9.0 (0.9) damage.

Now only 15% of that damage re-applied back to IS, so that went from 0.1875 extra IS damage to 0.135 extra IS damage.

So a triple crit would do 0.1 + (3 * 0.135) = 0.505 damage to IS, and (3*0.9) = 2.7 damage to a component.

The numbers aren't impressive, but it actually took the MG from 2.4 DPS vs internal structure to 2.03 DPS, and was enough to make the weapon feel underpowered again.


4 seconds again. 28 damage. Enough to chew through about 20 points of rear armour, crit out 42 points of internal structure, and destroy that side? I think not. The math just doesn't support your claims.


I'd like to see the spread gone and if that's not enough I'd like a small damage buff. But you have to understand that there's several factors determining the damage of the MG, not just base damage, but also the crit damage multiplier and the amount of damage being re-applied to IS.

I see what you're sayin, but nobody runs stock armor Jobe. Most people have 8 now in days. also, i never said the mechs id get behind were fresh. they often have open backs ripe for the reaping.

Edited by Yiazmat, 08 December 2013 - 03:46 PM.

[aniviron]

Yiazmat, on 08 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I think I may be the reason that they were nurfed. They were buffed, considerably. To the point I was doing this:

on a very regular basis. People were on the forums with pitchforks and torches, up in arms that the lowly spider was ANNIHILATING people. And to be honest, it was a bit much. I could get behind a victor, hit him with my Med.Pulse and open up with the MG's, by the time the Med.Pulse would fire again, it would destroy his L/R torso, XL would pop, and he's dead. Yeah, Literately 3 and a half seconds of fire on a rear torso.

This was due to the component-crit-to-structure damage transfer. As you'd shoot MG's at an open structure, your hits would do damage to said structure, and also each hit would hit 1-3 of the items (components, IE, weapons, heatsinks, ECM, ammo) Whenever you hit a component inside, some of the damage of the hit would go REAPPLY to the structure. It was AWESOMELY high. like 30-50%? I forget. It's like 15% now, which still makes it nice to blast out open segments on mechs. But I could get behind an open Atlas DDC with his ECM, 3 SRMS 6's and a DHS packed in the left torso, cirt them all out in about 2 seconds and the torso/arm itself would fall off in about 4 seconds.

IMO, I'd like to see the MG's damaged buffed another .1 or .2 and keep the same crit modifier it has (which is lowish). It would give MG's a little more punch at the end of a match, moping up wounded mechs. But I doubt it'll happen, because people like me who excel in the Spider-5K will go on pillaging, crushing our enemies, driving them before us, relishing the lamentations of their women folk.

p.s. I have over 150,000 xp in my 5K spider =p

One screenshot doesn't prove much, as I'm sure you're aware, but for the sake of argument I'll go with it.

The problem wasn't that the MG was too good. It might have been ever so slightly too good. But as of that patch, if you'd tried to do the same thing with the CDA-3C, I guarantee you wouldn't have done 750 damage, I'd guess a lot closer to 3-400. The problem was that the Spider was at the height of its bugginess then, combined with the fact that being able to survive absurd amounts of time combos well with a good DPS weapon.

[Deathlike]

stjobe, on 08 December 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

The numbers aren't impressive, but it actually took the MG from 2.4 DPS vs internal structure to 2.03 DPS, and was enough to make the weapon feel underpowered again.

Outside of the "duh" solution to remove the lame COF (only weapon that has it for some reason), the DPS should be closer between 2.1 and 2.25. You figure you won't get perfect uptime (especially with the COF in use), so that should be a bit more reasonable.

aniviron, on 08 December 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

One screenshot doesn't prove much, as I'm sure you're aware, but for the sake of argument I'll go with it.

The problem wasn't that the MG was too good. It might have been ever so slightly too good. But as of that patch, if you'd tried to do the same thing with the CDA-3C, I guarantee you wouldn't have done 750 damage, I'd guess a lot closer to 3-400. The problem was that the Spider was at the height of its bugginess then, combined with the fact that being able to survive absurd amounts of time combos well with a good DPS weapon.

What if I told you I decided to troll in a Spider for now? 5K looks more appealing to grind over the 5V...

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 08 December 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Outside of the "duh" solution to remove the lame COF (only weapon that has it for some reason), the DPS should be closer between 2.1 and 2.25. You figure you won't get perfect uptime (especially with the COF in use), so that should be a bit more reasonable.

What if I told you I decided to troll in a Spider for now? 5K looks more appealing to grind over the 5V...

I don't own any spiders, but I used the trial 5K(c) a lot actually, it's quite a bit of fun. Just looking at the loadouts, I would take the 5k in a heartbeat over the 5V with weapons balanced like they are right now.

That still doesn't mean the MG is in a good spot though. I'd take the 5D over either, no question.

[Clit Beastwood]

Troutmonkey, on 01 December 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

DISCLAIMER: I cannot see any active MG threads. I also havn't seen any for a while. Also INB4 "MGs suck in TT so they should be useless in MWO". Nobody wants to hear about TT again.

Hi guys,

Recently I went back to my Cicada 3C, which has no choice except to mount multiple machine guns, and found them to be completely dissapointing. I was getting decent damage, but only because of the LL I also equipped. In a recent game I spent over 2000 rounds and 2 minutes trying to kill one ©hampion ATLAS, and just couldn't do it, even though the pilot was almost oblivious to my presense and no one else interrupted for the whole two minutes (when I was eventually killed by 5 of his team mates). The last time I used my 3C was just after MGs got buffed, but before the debuff. At that point I think they felt just right, with them doing reasonable damage but being limited by a tiny range, and by requiring you constantly face the enemy, meaning you couldn't torso twist.

My Cicada 3M uses a single MG which is mostly useless, but I had 1.5T free and couldn't think of a better way to spend it (already had AMS).

Apart from the Champion spiders that I seemed to get grouped with every game, I almost never see MGs around. I believe that with a small buff, MGs could be somewhat useful and used again, and weapon variety on the battelfield is never a bad thing.

What do you guys think?

Is it possible its the cicada that's disappointing and not the MG's? An MG spider is still pretty decent, while the locust is not so much. It might be jumpjets and a smaller silhouette, but I feel it's probably got more to do with the MG's being in articulated arms instead of locked to the torso. You can dump MG fire while running by and also fire into your rear arc when at full twist. Just a thought!

[Yiazmat]

Deathlike, on 08 December 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Outside of the "duh" solution to remove the lame COF (only weapon that has it for some reason), the DPS should be closer between 2.1 and 2.25. You figure you won't get perfect uptime (especially with the COF in use), so that should be a bit more reasonable.



What if I told you I decided to troll in a Spider for now? 5K looks more appealing to grind over the 5V...

Definitely reducing the cone would help a ton. What If i told you I DO troll in my spider still? It's great for ripping people's IS out in a light wolf pack. They're easier to hit now, but it doesn't mean they cannot be played effectivly anymore.

Edited by Yiazmat, 09 December 2013 - 10:39 AM.