297 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

And unfortunately, MC don't buy you everything. Sure, you can get a mech, but how do you get the gear you want? You need 1,500,000 on most mechs to get Double Heat Sinks. Then you still don't have the weapons you want. You might also need Endo-Steel.

That's why I ultimately realized how futile buying MC (or the Phoenix package) is for me.

Admittedly, I am not that guy. I don't have a wife to tetx me grocery lists, I have to do make them myself. My car doesn't need a check-up right now (but it might do so), but my body could use me going more often to the fitness studio.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 02 December 2013 - 12:41 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bagheera, on 01 December 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Kids* these days, lol.

You would have hated R&R. Back in my day we had to pay millions to fix broken XL engines, buy fresh replacement armor every round, though only a small fraction of us actually paid full price for our re-loads (long story). Point is I didn't really have a problem with earnings then, and I certainly don't have a problem with them now.

You could also make a ton of money with R&R, because the winnings and costs were put in a relatively neat spot where even losing badly could still earn you a bit of money. With Premium, that suddenly meant a lot of surplus.

Not to forget that quite a few deliberately maximized their profits by AFK farming and suiciding trial mechs. So yeah, it might have been grindy, if you didn't rely on the missile fairy and half-repairs done the system gave you for free, but if you did, you could make good money. You just had to avoid a lot of "trap" equipment- like XL Engines. but hey, a Fatlas doesn't need an XL Engine. (Though the armor repair cost where hefty.)

[Diego Angelus]

Its sad that grind is norm games never should have if it because if game has grind that means it doesn't have content and they spread it out so you sometimes I don't play for fun I play to have fun later. Grind is not fun and should be avoided.

[Onmyoudo]

People seem to be forgetting that there should be no grind at all; there should be a game you play where earning C-bills to buy items (mechs etc) is an incidental bonus based on your performance. However, there is no game.

In the grim darkness of the 3rd millemium, there is only grind.

Edited by Onmyoudo, 02 December 2013 - 01:59 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

For me, it's a catch 22 situation. If I only played this game a couple of hours every week and didn't have time to grind, I wouldn't be willing to spend money on it. But I play several hours a week, so I don't need to spend money on it. And frankly, if I was playing less, I wouldn't be bored with my mechs and constantly needing to buy new ones.

When I first got into the game, I figured I would pretty much only play the Raven and that would be enough. I would be a one mech man. The reason I now have 35 mechs is... because I can. I think that if the game was completely different, and each player was limited to 1 mech of each class, I would be fine with it. I don't really need all those mechs, but PGI has designed the game so players will want to collect them all. We want more mechs because we can have them.

The question is, if I could only have 4 mechs at any time, what would make me spend money? I think the answer would be "upgrades". The perfect game for me would probably be a stock mech only game with repair & rearm costs. And I'd be stuck with a maximum of 4 mechs at any time. But I would be able to do minor modifications and upgrades that would suit my playstyle, like replacing a [color=#000000]Ceres Arms Model T AC/10 with a [/color][color=#000000]Mydron Model B AC/10, for extra range at the cost of heat, for example. Imagine a tier system on weapons and upgrades instead of mechs. An "epic AC/10", if you will. Except it didn't drop randomly, you had to earn it.[/color]

And to make it even better, I wish earning the best gear would take a tremendous amount of skill. So players without skill would never get the best mechs (i.e. completely awful player in a pimped Atlas D-DC). There would be some things in the game that you had to work hard for, there were some real achievements to hunger for, that you couldn't just buy for $30. So people would go "Wow, look at that mech, he's got the X and Y upgrades. He must be a really good player."

Agh, best to stop daydreaming now. It'll only make me depressed. The good news is, I just need 3 million more C-bills and I will have all 35 of my mechs fully equipped, and I have nothing more to spend money on. The grind is over for me, I've got everything I want in this game. Ball is in your court, PGI. Make your move

[The Basilisk]

Oh ?
Is there more to this game than grinding up new mechs and equipment at the moment ?
Is there ?
Is there any other incentive than getting new chassis and new equipment ?
( For non Battletech fans I mean)
Whats the goal of this game ? Blow stuff up ? Owning noobs ?
Dominate others ?
I hope not. So grind up stuff and try out new mechs it is.
At least up to this point the game IS about grinding and optimizing your big stompy robot.

[Otto Cannon]

People tend to see it as a grind because the actual gameplay is repetitive. Most of the people who aren't fine with the way the 'economy' works are no longer playing, let alone using the forums, so you're unlikely to get a balanced view from this thread. This game desperately needs more interesting game modes and content to take attention away from earning money as the only goal. CW needs to be really good if MWO is to have much future.

[NextGame]

The grind isn't *wildly* off, but I think it would be better to go back to something closer to pre 12v12 levels, and to justify it: the quicker people level their mechs, the more mechbays they can sell.

New content and features will keep people playing far more effectively than a lengthy grind ever will, and the lack in this department is this game's real problem

Edited by NextGame, 02 December 2013 - 02:52 AM.

[Sir Ratburger]

It's not so bad, could use a little extra cash per round - maybe X1.5 for your first win with a unique mech per day which would encourage you to take them all out and get a variation.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Denial is a river in Egypt.

The squareheads want to ram everyone into a one size fits all box because that's what they did. They forget that the community is much broader than that and many come here to have fun in different ways. Those coming to the game have many steep hills to climb to even get to where grinding pays off at all. The new guy in a poor build is lucky to last a minute or two per match and the cbill/xp earnings are more than poor.
If you factor in how hard it is to learn all that is needed you have a very poor introduction to the game. It takes countless hours of reading from multiple sources just to get the basics in movement, outfitting and Strategy.

Now people new to the game come here to express what the feel to get hammered by the narrow mind squad, Do you think they will want to stay after that? You goofs with the bully attitude are doing nothing to promote this game only chase people away.

Wake up clowns. Your killing it all by yourselves.

[VikingN1nja]

It's more to do with newbies getting 3 mechs of the same chassis kitting them out and really testing game for what it is when mech is elited in a short space of time.

Edited by omegagun, 02 December 2013 - 04:21 AM.

[MadcatX]

First I want to mention all this talk about WoT's grinding to tier X. Yea, tier X is not nearly as good as it's cracked up to be. Sure it has the advantages of:

-- No more PUG matches where you land in a fight with tanks up to two tiers above you,
-- Being able to really participate in high-end competitve play.You get access to a few unique maps.

Disadvantages:

-- There is a meta in competitive play like many other games. You better hope to hell your tier X tank just happens to be in the current meta (and stays there for a while, even tier X's see meta changes) if you want to play competitive CW, if not be ready to be the guy who sits on bench and only gets called in if there's an open slot if your in a good clan with simply better tanks,
-- In a PUG match, the higher-tier tanks carry matches, which is a given (although there are some tanks that, due to balance, can take on tanks one or two tiers higher). Being a tier X is nice and all, but if you end up in a match with lower tiers, the team has expectations from you. And contrary to popular belief, there are players running Tier X's that still suck after all the matches they must have played to get there. The team you're on is by no means shy in laying blame on you if you have a bad match.
-- The gameplay doesn't change a whole lot from tiers 7-10 anyways, other then at that tier you typically don't have to worry as much about penetration (i.e. not have a round either do no damage or ricochet), most guns will punch through most tanks.
-- Unlike MW:o post-R&R, repair & reload on a tier X is just ungodly. That tank you worked so hard on getting, yea, don't expect to be able to afford to run it nearly as often.

So I tend to not compare the MW:o "grind" to that of WoT due to WoT end-game not being nearly as different as that of Tier 5-6 matches, whereas MW:o has no end-game at all right now.

Now for the "grind". Really there's two schools of thought:
"There is no grind / if you play for fun the cash will accumulate without you noticing"
"There is a grind, I want to try new mechs / unlock efficiency but I have to buy 2 variants"

The grind exists, if it did not people wouldn't be complaining about it. Many game review sites wouldn't be commenting about it (not always about c-bills, but how the game in it's current state gets repetitive). For those of you who enjoy the gameplay alone and could care less about the economy, that's awesome, all F2P's need a solid core player base.

For those of us who would like to have the cbill awards buffed, maybe just a little (10% perhaps, or maybe back to the old values before the nerf (and I know that this sounds strange coming from a founder, I just havn't played a whole lot)... will that severely hamper your revenue stream PGI? When CW eventually does come out with the discounts based on house loyalty or the contracts, do you guys have another nerf lined up? I can deal with "grinding" rep for a house, because (at least with the info we have of CW right now) that is something that I can play games and not care how much it accumulates. Playing the same couple of mechs or 2 for a long time in a game where, other then maps, the only content that you are producing are mechs...

Yes there are other games with equal to worst "grinds" for the units you play in those games. Does that mean MW:o has to be like them in this regard?

[topgun505]

I have 40 mechs. 35 of which are fully elited or mastered (and the other 5 arent just because I'd never play them). And that's not including other mechs which I skilled up and since sold. And nearly all of that was done WITHOUT premium time.

The grind isn't bad. Suck it up buttercup.

[JettSett]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 December 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Here is a better picture:





Kids have time. Grown-Ups don't.

Ah, gonna play that card? I'm pushing 50, been a gamer since the atari 2600 and arcades. I am in the midst of getting my own start up corp going, have a house, cars, teenager, and all that goes with it yet still can spend my free time playing instead of being a zombie on the couch in front of the tv like most others (read that as most everybody I know in RL, friends, family, etc) in the same situation do. Grown-Ups have time for a hobby. If you have no free time for yourself you should re-look at your situation as too much stress like that makes for a short life. I'm also certainly not using the fact that I have responsibilities as an excuse for not progressing quickly in a game to try and make the devs change it to suit my schedule.

Edited by JettSett, 02 December 2013 - 05:18 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

To remove the grind (is to change the grind) It has to stay but the route has to be another one.
Much more Minor Steps instead of big ones.
Like in WoT (grinding to a new gun - before you get to a new tank)

So most are able to buy any mech they like....but - only 1 of those Mechs.
For example the Atlas AS7-D
but you need XP for each Mech:
to unlock upgrades
Star League Weapons and Tech
...for example after unlocking XL and ER-Laser and Gauss and AMS you can unlock the AS7-K
...unlock DHS and Endosteel is a dead end
...unlock ECM will get you to the AS7-DDC
So a min maxed AS7-DD or RS is endgame content and it means you have played a couple of times with your Atlas with a couple of strange weapons.
Premium and Champion Mechs are the fast route towards other Mechs (but they don't have unlocks)

So mounting a ER-PPC into a Victor Dragonslayer need the Unlock of the ER-PPC for the Victor at the tree of the VTR-9K

You have different routes to get to your end game content Mech:
wen directly towards the Mech Variant you want to have - or modify the Mech you allready own.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 December 2013 - 05:03 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Mudhutwarrior, on 02 December 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

Now people new to the game come here to express what the feel to get hammered by the narrow mind squad,

Calling people narrow minded because they don't agree the games economy is pure evil, isn't helping either..
Personally I don't find the game's economy to be too bad. I say this because I have 1000's of hours in other F2P games where the economies are much, much worse! So for me it's a matter of perspective, I think to myself my lord I need 5 million c-bills.....then I think back to my first tier 10 tank in WoT and how many frustrating games I had to play to get it. The sheer amount of money I LOST grinding xp on the tier 9 tanks just to unlock that first tier 10. Watching my savings getting less and less-even if I won a match my goal further and further away. If I had won every single game it would have taken me 260 games with premium, that's if I won every game.....
I remember my realisation after WT's great economy nerf-it was like a huge, cruel brick wall. It's so bad ALL of my friends have given up progressing any further, we sit at a maximum of tier 8 now, out of 20 because the repairs are so crazy-harsh!
I'll quote from another post I made below concerning that, remember the figures are for ME playing and the maths involved is in the realm of pure napkin:

"I play WT sparingly, mostly only when 2 friends play so we can watch each other's six.
I played 2 games solo the other day, one was a horrorshow and one was enjoyable. the first one was just hideous. My 3 fighter team mates all decided it would be a good plan to not climb, then turnfight 5 Zeros in planes HALF as agile. They got shredded to pieces within the space of a minute, that left me vs 5 Zeros. I managed to dive away, I went for my airfield they refused to let me land and leave. I was ganked 5 on 1. I lasted just over 2 mins vs 5 opponents-which I was pleased with scoring a few solid hits-but lost just over 3k lions in total oh and if I wanted to take advantage of the free repair feature....I could not play it for over 6 hours..... I ended that game feeling a bit sick and not happy.
The next game, I managed to perform to an average level getting one kill which I had to really work for as the guy was a great pilot, I even saved a team mate. I scored 16 hits, an air rescue kill and a kill. I made a glorious total of 10k lions for just over 20 mins of gameplay.
Now to put that into perspective for me to go from tier 10 to 20 with the US which I'm currently at I will need a total of: 3,250,000 lions just to BUY my Sabre, that does not include module xp and purchase etc (this is quite fantastical sums past tier 10, for each and every plane) it also does not factor in crew training costs so you can actually fly the planes.....the cost of that btw is 1,117,600 and that is just ONE branch of ONE nation...at that cost assuming I shoot down one plane and survive AND win EVERY match it would take: 436.76 games with an average (for me) gametime of 20 minutes: 145.58 hours. And that's from 50% of the way through the progression, NOT from 0%-100% so the actual time total is much higher....
Now that admittedly napkin math is assuming I WIN EVERY game. Now imagine I lose 50% of my games where I lose 4-5k lions.....that makes 873 games and...291 hours.......(bear with me here-my maths is really bad)

I could have bought my 1st Atlas after my first 25 games if I had wanted, as it turned out I bought three Kintaros instead.
I got given when I started:
1 day of premium time free.
25 games worth of 500k+ free money thrown at me.
I never lost a penny in those 25 games.
I alternated between the four trial mechs for variety.

Now take into account that:
A bad team never costs me
My own poor play and herp derp moments don't cost me
My only limitations on my mech buying are the boundries of my own patience...
So perhaps, some of you can see why I just don't understand what is so bad about the economy and why it taking a bit of time isn't really an issue? 90 games for an Atlas vs potentially 873 for a Sabre?"

So from MY perspective, it really is not that bad.
The real issue is game modes and variety but then again, warthunder only has team death match as well. You have ground objectives sure....but it usually is fighter team vs fighter team with the odd sacrificial bomber thrown in.
WoT has assault, encounter and death match-which are essentially all still team deathmatch just with the flag points in different places. So even in the competition with their "superior" variety they are still the same modes we have, just with different names.
And FAR, FAR, FAR harsher grinds.

The only real difference I can tell is, the competition has dev teams that appear to be doing something and are somewhat more transparent.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 02 December 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

Denial is a river in Egypt.

The squareheads want to ram everyone into a one size fits all box because that's what they did. They forget that the community is much broader than that and many come here to have fun in different ways. Those coming to the game have many steep hills to climb to even get to where grinding pays off at all. The new guy in a poor build is lucky to last a minute or two per match and the cbill/xp earnings are more than poor.
If you factor in how hard it is to learn all that is needed you have a very poor introduction to the game. It takes countless hours of reading from multiple sources just to get the basics in movement, outfitting and Strategy.

Now people new to the game come here to express what the feel to get hammered by the narrow mind squad, Do you think they will want to stay after that? You goofs with the bully attitude are doing nothing to promote this game only chase people away.

Wake up clowns. Your killing it all by yourselves.

Will new players be willing to wait longer to get a drop with with other relative boots? I ran a bunch o drops with a player who had a MUCH higher Elo than me. Plenty of Matches where I did paltry damage, few kills and meager assists. But the camaraderie on comms made it no problem. Even when we faced 12 man sync drops. I personally was amazed at the difference in play against real teams. It was very refreshing to play against truly organized players. Getting set tricked in to ambushes, hosed by a well organized firing line, or crushed by a well executed series of Artillery/air strikes was refreshing!

That is right, I said how I dies was refreshing. Compared the march to D8 and commence fire I have seen for months, this was a cool way to lose!

[Mudhutwarrior]

JettSett, on 02 December 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

Ah, gonna play that card? I'm pushing 50, been a gamer since the atari 2600 and arcades. I am in the midst of getting my own start up corp going, have a house, cars, teenager, and all that goes with it yet still can spend my free time playing instead of being a zombie on the couch in front of the tv like most others (read that as most everybody I know in RL, friends, family, etc) in the same situation do. Grown-Ups have time for a hobby. If you have no free time for yourself you should re-look at your situation as too much stress like that makes for a short life.

I'm grown up and never thought of video games as a hobby but entertainment. I build boats as a hobby because sitting at a screen shooting big stompy robots is the furthest thing from being creative. Can't sail my computer to distant lands and check out the local color.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 December 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

And unfortunately, MC don't buy you everything. Sure, you can get a mech, but how do you get the gear you want? You need 1,500,000 on most mechs to get Double Heat Sinks. Then you still don't have the weapons you want. You might also need Endo-Steel.

That's why I ultimately realized how futile buying MC (or the Phoenix package) is for me.

Admittedly, I am not that guy. I don't have a wife to tetx me grocery lists, I have to do make them myself. My car doesn't need a check-up right now (but it might do so), but my body could use me going more often to the fitness studio.

I bought 2 Victors over the 4 day weekend, No premium time, No MC, Limited C-Bills in the bank (frivolous not fugal), And that was with most of my time spent grinding Pokemon Black so my son can have a full Pokedex in his Pokemon X for Christmas.

If i can do that in 2 nights (Friday an Saturday), It should take a week for the average player. That isn't a long grind considering we are Soldiers in a military outfit. We are buying Multimillion dollar pieces of hardware... the prototype Machine shop I am in cannot even afford to buy one 1 600K CnC Milling Station next year. But we are buying 20+ Multi million dollar war machines!?!

I have 3 Mechs (per account) That is more than enough to play the game. For any faction.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 December 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

Will new players be willing to wait longer to get a drop with with other relative boots? I ran a bunch o drops with a player who had a MUCH higher Elo than me. Plenty of Matches where I did paltry damage, few kills and meager assists. But the camaraderie on comms made it no problem. Even when we faced 12 man sync drops. I personally was amazed at the difference in play against real teams. It was very refreshing to play against truly organized players. Getting set tricked in to ambushes, hosed by a well organized firing line, or crushed by a well executed series of Artillery/air strikes was refreshing!

That is right, I said how I dies was refreshing. Compared the march to D8 and commence fire I have seen for months, this was a cool way to lose!

Agreed, Don't mind dying if it was a good fight. Most are not though when its just group assassination. Been playing long enough I know a lot of the good pugs and sometimes we drop together at random. Its the best games ever. No comms but we all know what to do. I never mind sacrificing myself for the win in those conditions. There is discussion of building a team but 12 man only with no farming xp/cbills at the sake of pugs. Hope to put it together soon and see how all those matches add up.