297 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Aleksanteri Bekker, on 02 December 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

My own personal opinion:

stuff

To say that the requirement of buying 'mechs you don't want in order to progress in the 'mech you do want does not equate a grind? Shows a real lack of critical thought about the situation. You may not mind climate change, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or "isn't that bad".

So you would not be, say, adverse to the cost of progress on only one chassis to be tripled, or quadrupled, and have that replace the need for the current tri-fecta buy to Master plan?

It seems understood that PGI has to make a buck. Currently, the only thing you HAVE to buy with real bucks are Mech Bays. Will we want to do away with that as well, as that absolutely ties right in with the tri-fecta to master plan.

So, for everyone who dislikes the "grind", how's about we just leave PGI without any possible revenue stream and see how they do for us.

Prosperity Park, on 02 December 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

Some people just don't acknowledge Community Warfare as something that the game will revolve around. They are sick of the current build, and are complaining that the rest of the game isn't done yet. Heck, there are people on the forums who have maintained that Community Warfare will never exist because MW:O is just a cash grab for your Founder's Money (later updated to Phoenix Money).

And quite a few hope that gets "upgraded" yet again to Clan Mech Packs. Those buggers at PGI. Selling BattleMechs in a BattleMech game. The nerve. lol

[Roadkill]

Amsro, on 04 December 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

If players set their minds to mastering mechs, you will end up with more C-Bills then you need.

It can take up to 100 matches to master a mech, that will net you 7,000,000 C-Bills if you ONLY make 70,000 c-bills per match (average)

At which point you need to buy and outfit a new Mech.

7 million c-bills will buy and outfit some lights and mediums, but that's it. It isn't enough for a heavy or an assault - it won't even buy some assaults, let alone outfit it.

What really makes it a grind, though, was already said by someone else. Why am I required to buy and outfit 2 Mechs that I don't want in order to fully level up the 1 Mech that I do want?

That may not seem bad to forum posters, who are generally the people who spend the most time playing the game. But think about it from the perspective of someone who can only play 2-3 times per week for 2 hours each time. 100 matches could take 6 weeks. Add another 20 matches (x2) for the other 2 Mechs you have to buy and play through Basic just to unlock Elite in the one you want, and you're looking at easily 2 months. And you'll be in the hole on c-bills because you didn't play the other 2 variants long enough to earn back what you were forced to spend on them.

It's absolutely a grind, and unless you have a LOT of free time on your hands, it's a pretty onerous grind.

[Almond Brown]

FupDup, on 04 December 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

To expand upon point #1, there should also be variation within each class, because not all mechs of one class have the same role.

For instance, the Raven 3L and Spider 5V would/should focus on electronics warfare with a little bit of scouting sprinkled in, the slow 4X and 2X Ravens should probably be utility/support, Commandos and Jenners as hit-and-run strikers, Locusts as pure recon, etc. Or, the Hunchback would focus on durability and buffing weapons mounted in the Hunch (but be slower than other mediums), Trebs as fire support, Centurions and Shawks as all-rounders, Blackjacks as direct-fire support, etc. etc.

And that would be totally awesome. All you need now is a Pilot willing to play each of those "roles" after building their Mechs, for said specific "roles" while also making sure that "everyone" gets what they think they "deserve" in terms of end-rewards for doing those many, some non-combat related (don't ever fire a weapon) "roles".

Given that most players buy Mech(s) and want to use them to KILL each other, with guns, that may prove a tad more difficult scheme to accomplish than the pipe dream it appears to be on the surface.

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I had money to spend on the game, then my wife saw how much I was spending and grounded me from my bank card!

LOL! I know that feeling... I am running out if MC too...

Edited by Almond Brown, 04 December 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[Almond Brown]

Roadkill, on 04 December 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

stuff

What really makes it a grind, though, was already said by someone else. Why am I required to buy and outfit 2 Mechs that I don't want in order to fully level up the 1 Mech that I do want?

Mech Bays.

Otherwise PGI would be out of business already and some folks wouldn't be able to come here and whine about the "grind".

So, for a bit of "grind", we all get a "Forum" we can come to and spend time, not playing, and complain about the "grind".

Kinda cool eh!

Edited by Almond Brown, 04 December 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Ghogiel]

ShadowVFX, on 04 December 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Did you even read any posts in this thread, or are you just ignorant?

Not really, no. I assume they consist of F2P noobs whining about being poor, the game too expensive, or they don't have time to grind out every single mech. And the rest are people saying lolL2F2P.

Edited by Ghogiel, 04 December 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 04 December 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

I dont think the problem is grinding. I think the problem is the skill system is boring. You dont make ANY meaningful choices with the skill system and everybody uses the SAME exact modules. It makes the progression part of the game very bland and uninteresting.

1) each mech weight class needs a unique skill tree, because not all weight classes should be treated equally. Not only does this help with role warfare but it gives PGI a way to balance weight classes independently of eachother, so like if mediums are too weak, they can simply buff their skill tree.

2) there needs to be a pilot skill tree that forces you to choose a specific role (strike/assault/recon/command/support/etc...). This would allow players to play the same mech in a variety of different ways and dramatically improve the tactical aspects of the game.

3) the module system needs to revamped, so everybody doesnt always use the same 3-4 modules every game (i.e. the modules you can use should be determined by the pilot skill tree you're currently using).

A problem is also that the advancement across the skill tree hinges on buying an additional mech.

I think the whole idea that modules are "endgame content" is also bad. Because what is the "non-endgame content"? I buy myself 3 Atlai for MC and I am max level?

End-Game content is Community Warfare. Yeah, it's not there yet, but so many F2P MMOs start with mostly non-existing endgame content (at least if you believe the players), so this isn't a first.

Modules and Efficiences are part of the regular progression of a mechwarrior. New mechs are a mix of additional characters and alternate builds.



A skill tree for each weight class could be a start.

I'd also add some "Quirk" type modules. The quirks might be completely mech-specific, or they could be more or less generic but not possible to be installed in every mech. (A Raven might be able to buy the "reduced sensor detection" quirk, but an Awesome couldn't. The Awesome however could get "+15 % range with PPCs".)

[Joseph Mallan]

I kinda chuckle. Some folks here say they have 20+, 30+ 40+ Mechs in their Bays.
...
...
...
...
There isn't a character in the Universe that owns That many Mechs personally. Unless they are the head f a small house!

I have 3. The most I've ever had was 7 Cause I was grinding Chassis out of boredom. This isn't Pokemon, the objective is not to Have 'em All. Because we don' have a real game with objectives some folks feel that collecting the rides is a badge of honor or something.


OK.

Gimme the dang game to play, I may start spending money again.

[VikingN1nja]

Dam is this thread HOT lol, I just see players posting stuff like "I tried to get my friends to play but..." so what is it that turns them away. The initial grind of getting 3 mechs, endo, dhs, artemis, new engine or soemthing else?

[Joseph Mallan]

omegagun, on 05 December 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

Dam is this thread HOT lol, I just see players posting stuff like "I tried to get my friends to play but..." so what is it that turns them away. The initial grind of getting 3 mechs, endo, dhs, artemis, new engine or soemthing else?

I'm going to guess it involves dropping into a new game with/against experienced players and expecting to be successful immediately.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 December 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[Zerberoff]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 December 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

Dude... Touche'! Or more fittingly, Checkmate.

...not so fast

SniperCon, on 04 December 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

$99 a year for additional content on chess.com (F2P).

I was taking a peek into Chess.com and couldnt find any of your so called "additional content"
(What should that be anyhow? venomouse Snake and the old Woman?)

They do offer you the game "Chess" to play for free against other Players or against the Computer.
simple and easy.

Now dont take me wrong, i like Chess and i dont want to denounce that side in any way. but they charge you for any little extra you dont have to pay here in MWO, just like....

Online / Live Matches (aka Comunity War) and i need to have the 7$/Month membership to have an all access to it (i know its not even close to be released, but Chess.com exist for atleast 5 Years, so we have some time there),

Full Access Tutorials and Training Videos, 14$/Month membership

Statistic monitor , realy? you need an 5$/Month membership only to get my own statistics been saved? 7$/Month membership if i want to see them from other player.

Block Commercials for 5$/Month membership.

...there are a couple more things you need to be a member for, that you get for free here in MWO.

Now at the end im not gonna say "Checkmate" as i know some of you guys will try to find some stuff to proove me wrong and i also guess you will find something somewhere to keep this discusion alive, but one thing you will not get..

to convince me that MWO is more of a grind then any other Games out there.

Edited by Zerberoff, 05 December 2013 - 05:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Zerberoff, on 05 December 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

...not so fast



I was taking a peek into Chess.com and couldnt find any of your so called "additional content"
(What should that be anyhow? venomouse Snake and the old Woman?)

They do offer you the game "Chess" to play for free against other Players or against the Computer.
simple and easy.

Now dont take me wrong, i like Chess and i dont want to denounce that side in any way. but they charge you for any
little extra you dont have to pay here in MWO, just like....

Online / Live Matches (aka Comunity War) and i need to have the 7$/Month membership to have an all access to it
(i know its not even close to be released, but Chess.com exist for atleast 5 Years, so we have some time there),

Full Access Tutorials and Training Videos, 14$/Month membership

Statistic monitor , realy? you need an 5$/Month membership only to get my own statistics been saved? 7$/Month membership if i want to see them from other player.

Block Commercials for 5$/Month membership.

...there are a couple more things you need to be a member for, that you get for free here in MWO.

Now at the end im not gonna say "Checkmate" as i know some of you guys will try to find some stuff to proove me wrong and
i also guess you will find something somewhere to keep this discusion alive, but one thing you will not get..

to convince me that MWO is more of a grind then any other Games out there.

I am comending the rebuff, it was well played. Accuracy not withstanding, it was a fun reply.

[Jun Watarase]

Without any bonuses, i currently average 80-100k per win on conquest....and thats by doing above average on the team, with 400+ damage, substantial resource bonus and multiple kills/assists.

It would take hundreds of above average wins to grind the c-bills for 3 mechs and the equipment to outfit them.

And one of the main attractions of mechwarrior games has always been to try out different loadouts and mechs....and you simply cannot do this in MWO unless you are wealthy and have no qualms with putting down $10+ per mech and its corresponding mechbay, or grind for hundreds of games. And in my experience games usually last close to 10 mins (unless its a 12-0 stomp).

It doesnt help that it costs a large amount of money everytime you want to switch from endo-steel to standard structure or take off artemis.

It is one of the huge turnoffs for this game. I think people would be a lot more willing to buy MC and use it if it wasnt so expensive, and play if the grind wasn't so silly. Every single piece of evidence out there, especially in business literature, shows that charging customers a price too high will drop overall profitability. Look at all the popular free to play games that are surviving on micro transactions....i believe path of exile is the latest good example...they are not forcing you to pay to skip a grind, and yet, they are getting money, and lots of it.

The entire concept of forcing players to buy and use mechs which they dont want, just to get to master level in the mech that they do, is absolutely ******** (please lets not use the realism argument here). Again, huge turnoff, etc. Nobody is going to play a RPG where they have to grind a class that they hate just to level up the class that they do want to play.

I really want to try out the orion, but an estimated 20 million c-bills to get all 3 mechs just for efficiencies....and assuming i can get 100k c-bills every match...it would take me 200 matches to get the money. And thats about 30 hours of gameplay, minimum.

JUST to try out one mech and a particular loadout that i would like. That is insane, not even korean MMORPGs are worse than this.

Keep in mind that MWO currently appeals mostly to casual gamers that just want to hop in and shoot up some mechs in a few matches a day. You think they are going to grind for 200 matches to try out a new mech?

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 December 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 December 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

I kinda chuckle. Some folks here say they have 20+, 30+ 40+ Mechs in their Bays.
...
...
...
...
There isn't a character in the Universe that owns That many Mechs personally. Unless they are the head f a small house!

I have 3. The most I've ever had was 7 Cause I was grinding Chassis out of boredom. This isn't Pokemon, the objective is not to Have 'em All. Because we don' have a real game with objectives some folks feel that collecting the rides is a badge of honor or something.


OK.

Gimme the dang game to play, I may start spending money again.

I have over 30 mechs, but it has nothing to do with collecting. I just like to play different stuff. I also buy different ice cream each time, and don't always eat at the same restaurants. There's nothing wrong with enjoying variety.

And since when did this become an RPG? Who owns what, or how much of it, in the BT universe has little to do with a shooter.

[Joseph Mallan]

OneEyed Jack, on 05 December 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

I have over 30 mechs, but it has nothing to do with collecting. I just like to play different stuff. I also buy different ice cream each time, and don't always eat at the same restaurants. There's nothing wrong with enjoying variety.

And since when did this become an RPG? Who owns what, or how much of it, in the BT universe has little to do with a shooter.

Is a BattleTech Universe Shooter. This is where the individual expectations come into play. I understand why you are doing it the way you are, but as you properly pointed it out. Our Mileage Will vary

[MustrumRidcully]

Maybe one thing to do, without affecting C-Bills and MC prices, and without adding new efficiencies.

Effeciencies Revamped (Minor)
Mech Efficiencies can be trained to Mastery without needing to train any other mech, but there is no doubling of efficiency bonuses.

When you have learned all efficiencies of the basic tier, you can buy them a second time to:
- Double the bonus on every mech in the same weight class that already has the efficiency
- Give the basic bonus on every mech in the same weight class that doesn't have that efficiency yet.

When you have learned all efficiences of the Elite tier, you can buy them a second time to:
- Double the bonus on your current mech and every variant of that mech that already has the effeciency.
- Give the basic bonus o nevery mech variant of the current mech that doesn't have that efficiency yet.
(Elites aren't doubled normally, so I would probably lower the current value, unless there is good reason not to.)


This overal follows the concept that you advance quicker at start (since you unlock basic efficiencies on every mech of the same class, but elites you only get the variants covered), like it is in most MMOs with leveling.

Modules Revamped (Minor)
You do not unlock modules on a general level. You unlock them per mech including all variants. So you don't unlock Seismic for all mechs, but only for all your Locusts or all your Atlai. In exchange however, the XP price is lowered to 1/10th (or less?) of the current value.

This means that people unlock modules faster then now, adding another layer to advancement that begins early.

It could still be feasible to keep the module C-Bill prices as now, that means it still takes some time to actually use an unlocked module, but when you have them, unlocking their use for a mech becomes an advancement goal that doesn't take too long.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 December 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

F2P = Grind (when not spending money). That's the formula...nothing to see here...move along

They have to inspire you to spend money somehow. Still, Premium time seems like a waste. I am glad I have it with the Phoenix package, but I can't see buying it by itself.

[Karl Streiger]

MeiSooHaityu, on 05 December 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

F2P = Grind (when not spending money). That's the formula...nothing to see here...move along

They have to inspire you to spend money somehow. Still, Premium time seems like a waste. I am glad I have it with the Phoenix package, but I can't see buying it by itself.

Funny part is:
I have lots of Mechs in my hangar..thanks to some HeroMech sale or the Overlord packages. What I don't have is enough C-Bills to upgrade them in a proper way. When I'm lucky i earn enough c-bills while skilling the basics for one of them to upgrade the next mech and so on.
What is completely missing is the possibility to exchange MC for C-Bills - and in some cases the other way for a different ratio:
for example 1 MC = 10,000 C-Bills or 100,000 C-Bills = 1 MC

[SniperCon]

Zerberoff, on 05 December 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

...not so fast



I was taking a peek into Chess.com and couldnt find any of your so called "additional content"
(What should that be anyhow? venomouse Snake and the old Woman?)

They do offer you the game "Chess" to play for free against other Players or against the Computer.
simple and easy.

Now dont take me wrong, i like Chess and i dont want to denounce that side in any way. but they charge you for any little extra you dont have to pay here in MWO, just like....

Online / Live Matches (aka Comunity War) and i need to have the 7$/Month membership to have an all access to it (i know its not even close to be released, but Chess.com exist for atleast 5 Years, so we have some time there),

Full Access Tutorials and Training Videos, 14$/Month membership

Statistic monitor , realy? you need an 5$/Month membership only to get my own statistics been saved? 7$/Month membership if i want to see them from other player.

Block Commercials for 5$/Month membership.

...there are a couple more things you need to be a member for, that you get for free here in MWO.

Now at the end im not gonna say "Checkmate" as i know some of you guys will try to find some stuff to proove me wrong and i also guess you will find something somewhere to keep this discusion alive, but one thing you will not get..

to convince me that MWO is more of a grind then any other Games out there.

I don't remember all the details of each things unlocked with a premium membership (it was a few years ago). The value is mostly in the instructional videos (by renowned GMs) and live matches (live coverage of top events - there is no pay to play). The statistics and computer analysis a convenience and saves me from transposing games into external software.

The bottom line is it's an excellent site, has fantastic instructional content, and I play lot of chess. For me, $99 works out to pennies per hour.

I think the conversation was:
"Chess is F2P and doesn't have a grind."
"But chess doesn't bring in the $$."

F2P Chess sites are commercially viable, but the chess model could not work for MWO. I think the moderate grind benefits the income MWO generates through GXP conversions. I support any feature which is successful at making MWO money.

[Blurry]

Ghogiel, on 04 December 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

Not really, no. I assume they consist of F2P noobs whining about being poor, the game too expensive, or they don't have time to grind out every single mech. And the rest are people saying lolL2F2P.

So right it is a good thing PGI sells everything directly and the game plays like {Scrap}.
If it wasnt for the entitlement of you people the game wouldnt have anyone to play against and if it wasnt for new people the game would die. But who cares what thier experience is they are just stupid rubes who complain.

People like me dont exist - pay money play the game discover issues ask for changes.
Nope I am just a stupid f2p whiner who hasnt spent a dime and says everthing is too expensive.
No wonder this game is {Scrap} with people like you.

[Blurry]

MeiSooHaityu, on 05 December 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

F2P = Grind (when not spending money). That's the formula...nothing to see here...move along

They have to inspire you to spend money somehow. Still, Premium time seems like a waste. I am glad I have it with the Phoenix package, but I can't see buying it by itself.

nope on premium time =grind and 0 money.
please try again.

Oh oh oh I know Make the game FUN? I dont know but that seems the idea to go by but who cares about that right.
who cares if the people playing arent having it?

Make it like a job and terrible play and ask for money you get derision for a reason.