297 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 06 December 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

adsf
Sure, but when determining the rate of income the game needs to take "calendar time" into account. Saying that 20 hours to make 10 million c-bills to buy an Atlas doesn't seem like all that much is far too simplistic, even ignoring the fact that you can't buy and outfit an Atlas for 10 million. Some guys will play 20 hours over a single weekend to buy that Atlas. For them, I'd argue that 20 hours isn't long enough. But for other guys, those 20 hours might take a month. For them, 20 hours is too long.

PGI needs to look at the amount of time spent playing by average players and set the economy accordingly. I've said this elsewhere, but game balance should be tuned to the 1%-ers. However the game's economy should be tuned to the average gamer so that he can feel like he's making reasonable progress for the time he's committing to the game.

That is a marvelous idea. I average 121k per match (which seems pretty high to me with a KDR of 1.25. )

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

That is a marvelous idea. I average 121k per match (which seems pretty high to me with a KDR of 1.25. )

You're doing very well, at least compared to me. I average 87,250/match without any bonuses.

Note: the stat displayed in your profile is a little out of whack. It is lifetime earnings since stats started being recorded, which includes bonuses. Mine says 127k/match. My 87,250 number comes from a test run of 30 matches played after the c-bill nerf and has been adjusted to take out the 30% Phoenix Mech bonus I received for 16 of the 30 matches.

[Anton Shiningstar]

Roadkill, on 06 December 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

You're doing very well, at least compared to me. I average 87,250/match without any bonuses.

Note: the stat displayed in your profile is a little out of whack. It is lifetime earnings since stats started being recorded, which includes bonuses. Mine says 127k/match. My 87,250 number comes from a test run of 30 matches played after the c-bill nerf and has been adjusted to take out the 30% Phoenix Mech bonus I received for 16 of the 30 matches.

You are right. BUT this Alt averages 149k that is since March of this year with little Premium time.

Yes I'm Joe.

[Joseph Mallan]

My 3rd Alt averages 171k Also active since March... But has a Heavy Metal...

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 06 December 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Kojin]

Seeing a few things I agree with here. The grind to get a mech elited isn't too bad, however, I think that the CB per week/month accumulation has dropped way more than it should have with the adjustments made after 12v12 got put in. The problem is the current CB rate seems to be based on a per match income and not based on average long term play.

The last 3 months I've been using premium time and my average per match income has been slowly dropping compared to when I played 8v8 with no premium time. If you then put in elongated queue times and slightly longer matches, I'm going to be seriously dropping accumulated CB potential when my Premium runs out this weekend and I'll be struggling to maintain the 105k per match average nevermind my old per week income.

[Almond Brown]

A cadet after 25 Matches should have 10 million C-Bills, regardless of Match outcomes. That should buy and outfit a decent Medium Mech. Well unless of course that cadet wishes to have all the top end Modules, an XL, DHS's, ES etc etc etc for Match #26. Expectation versus work put in mismatch perhaps?

[RetroActive]

Roadkill, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I want to know where you're getting an Atlas, and outfitting it, for 7.5 million c-bills. Reality is more like 12-15 million, which even using your math takes 8-10 nights of play.

The thing is, I don't think most people make 1-2 million c-bills every night that they play. I think most people make 1 million. Maybe a little more; maybe a little less. But even that slight change to your math and suddenly it takes 12-15 nights of play to buy and outfit that shiney new Atlas, which could easily take a month. Most players don't play every night. If you're playing 4-5 nights a week for 3-5 hours per night, you're waaay ahead of the average player.

I think you misspelled "outfitting". You meant to type "optimizing". Last time I checked, mechs come already outfitted when you purchase them. So for the low price of 10,486,012 c-bills you can have your shiny new D-DC that you've been "grinding" for. That sounds like 5-6 nights even by your math.

Of course optimizing a mech is going to take a little longer. Even after you buy that endo, DHS and whatever meta-weapons you want, you're still not optimized since there are still efficiencies to unlock..and those aren't done until you've mastered the thing which requires buying two additional Atlases. I'm not even going to touch that cost.

I only get the chance to play 2-3 nights a week for 3-4 hours, unfortunately, and things don't feel grindy at all to me.

[Corvus Antaka]

Roadkill, on 06 December 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

I want to know where you're getting an Atlas, and outfitting it, for 7.5 million c-bills. Reality is more like 12-15 million, which even using your math takes 8-10 nights of play.

The thing is, I don't think most people make 1-2 million c-bills every night that they play. I think most people make 1 million. Maybe a little more; maybe a little less. But even that slight change to your math and suddenly it takes 12-15 nights of play to buy and outfit that shiney new Atlas, which could easily take a month. Most players don't play every night. If you're playing 4-5 nights a week for 3-5 hours per night, you're waaay ahead of the average player.

I think it's perfectly reasonable that without spending ANY money a person needs a good 2 weeks of 2-4 hours daily to grind an atlas. A hero atlas is $30, being able to grind for something and buy it completely for free is actually quite reasonable.

[MustrumRidcully]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 06 December 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think it's perfectly reasonable that without spending ANY money a person needs a good 2 weeks of 2-4 hours daily to grind an atlas. A hero atlas is $30, being able to grind for something and buy it completely for free is actually quite reasonable.

Then let's agree to disagree.

Or maybe we don't fundamentally. For all I care, it could take 3 months to buy myself an Atlas.

But - some feeling of progression along the way would be nice. We had that problem before, for new players that only had Trials and when there wasn't the cadet/recruit bonus in play. You made money. But there was no progression. It took many matches to buy your first mech. IN the meantime, you couldn't spend any XP, nothing.

That means combat is all you got, and it just isn' that varied. There is little room for experimentation that would keep things fresh. Especially if you PUG. If everyone came with a Premade, they could at least experiment tactics, but PUGging? You're happy if you can get the group to keep together. (Or nowadays, have people not leave your Trial Atlas behind?)

PGI seriously needs to think about advancement and progression in its game. If they don't want to hand out mechs too often, then they need to give players some other forms of advancements. The skill tree, modules. Something to tinker with, something to keep fresh, something "close by" to advance to.

It might sound lame to some, but seeing your XP bar go full in a MMORPG and here the "bing" (or whatever sound effect" that you leveled up and earning a new ability or at least improving an old one is satisfying and motivating and important if you want your customers to stick around and perhaps one day spend some money. Or at least be around as "play-mate" for the people that are willing to spend money.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 06 December 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[Roadkill]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 December 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

For all I care, it could take 3 months to buy myself an Atlas.
...
But - some feeling of progression along the way would be nice.
...
PGI seriously needs to think about advancement and progression in its game. If they don't want to hand out mechs too often, then they need to give players some other forms of advancements. The skill tree, modules. Something to tinker with, something to keep fresh, something "close by" to advance to.

This.

I've been posting about the grind, but this is really what I mean.

It isn't a grind if you can see some sort of progress. The Pilot Trees are one way to do it, but they're currently out of whack with c-bill earnings. By the time you've leveled your Mech up to Elite 8/8, you probably haven't earned back the c-bills you spent to buy it and outfit it.

It would also be nice if PGI would break up the Master module slot in some way so that it's not a single 21,500 xp chunk. Earning that sucker takes 25-30 matches and you see no interim progress during that... grind. In fact, I quite enjoy earning the Basics because every couple of matches you get to unlock something. The Elites individually take too long, especially Speed Tweak. My gut tells me that 2500 xps/slot should probably be the max.

[Roadkill]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 06 December 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think it's perfectly reasonable that without spending ANY money a person needs a good 2 weeks of 2-4 hours daily to grind an atlas. A hero atlas is $30, being able to grind for something and buy it completely for free is actually quite reasonable.

I think 2-3 weeks is okay, but not the 42 hours you're proposing.

The problem comes from some people being able to play 2-4 hours daily and others only being able to play 4-5 hours per week.

If you can play 2-4 hours every day, week in and week out, then 2 weeks to buy and outfit an Atlas isn't that bad. But if you convert that to ~42 hours, then apply those 42 hours to someone who can only play 4-5 hours per week, that new person needs ~2 months to buy and outfit an Atlas.

How many people do you think are going to keep playing long enough if that's what they're facing?

The 20 hour/week players are your core, but the 4 hour/week players are absolutely needed in order to fill out matches. There just aren't enough 20 hour/week players around to keep the game going on their own.

Observable, consistent progress must be possible for the people who don't have 20 hours per week to play.

[MustrumRidcully]

I'll leave this here: http://mwomercs.com/...chs-like-candy/

[RetroActive]

Roadkill, on 06 December 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

I think 2-3 weeks is okay, but not the 42 hours you're proposing.

The problem comes from some people being able to play 2-4 hours daily and others only being able to play 4-5 hours per week.

If you can play 2-4 hours every day, week in and week out, then 2 weeks to buy and outfit an Atlas isn't that bad. But if you convert that to ~42 hours, then apply those 42 hours to someone who can only play 4-5 hours per week, that new person needs ~2 months to buy and outfit an Atlas.

How many people do you think are going to keep playing long enough if that's what they're facing?

The 20 hour/week players are your core, but the 4 hour/week players are absolutely needed in order to fill out matches. There just aren't enough 20 hour/week players around to keep the game going on their own.

Observable, consistent progress must be possible for the people who don't have 20 hours per week to play.

If your idea of progression is going from no mechs to Atlas, then you may need to re-think things.

Progression goes more like:

No mech --> light mech
light mech --> medium mech
medium mech --> heavy mech
heavy mech --> Atlas

And the first and second progressions are EASILY doable in a few play sessions, especially because of the recruit bonus. How is that not observable, consistent progress?

[OneEyed Jack]

Roadkill, on 06 December 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

adsf
Sure, but when determining the rate of income the game needs to take "calendar time" into account. Saying that 20 hours to make 10 million c-bills to buy an Atlas doesn't seem like all that much is far too simplistic, even ignoring the fact that you can't buy and outfit an Atlas for 10 million. Some guys will play 20 hours over a single weekend to buy that Atlas. For them, I'd argue that 20 hours isn't long enough. But for other guys, those 20 hours might take a month. For them, 20 hours is too long.

You have yet to offer a reasonable reason why a person that barely plays needs to be able to buy everything. Get bored after having been forced to "grind" on the same mech for 3 whole hours since you bought it a week ago?

A given amount of time in-game is either reasonable or not. Expecting the devs to make special accommodations for people that hardly play anyway, so that they neither have to work to accomplish anything nor spend money to support the game, is completely un-reasonable. The F2P model is based on the idea that people spending time in-game are, in essence, providing content in the form of people to play with, to encourage others to get involved enough to want to spend money. Or they'll spend money themselves. If one is going to do neither, asking for special accommodations is ridiculous.

Furthermore, people need to take a little more time and actually learn to play the mechs they have, instead of wasting their time whining about how they don't have more mechs they don't know how to play to bounce around between.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 06 December 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[Roadkill]

OneEyed Jack, on 06 December 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

You have yet to offer a reasonable reason why a person that barely plays needs to be able to buy everything.

Someone who plays 2 hours per session 2-3 times per week is not someone who "barely plays." In fact, that description covers the bulk of players in f2p games. Those who play 20 hours per week are like forum posters - a distinctly vocal minority.

Quote

A given amount of time in-game is either reasonable or not.

That is correct, but to do so you'll have to stop assuming that normal players are online 20 hours per week. That's what I'm trying to point out in an effort to get people to realize that 20 hours of gameplay just to outfit an Atlas, let alone buy one, is excessive for the average player.

Quote

Expecting the devs to make special accommodations for people that hardly play anyway, so that they neither have to work to accomplish anything nor spend money to support the game, is completely un-reasonable.

You aren't paying attention. As I've pointed out repeatedly, even for players who buy their Mechs with MC and then pay for Premium time while playing, the current economy is out of whack. It's even worse for f2p players, but as it stands the economy is broken even for paying players.

RetroActive, on 06 December 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

If your idea of progression is going from no mechs to Atlas, then you may need to re-think things.

There is no progression in MWO. All Mechs are available to all players at all times.

"Progression" implies that you need to buy a light before you buy a medium. That's not true, and in fact it's a bad idea. If your ultimate goal is an Atlas, there's no reason to buy a medium or heavy in order to "progress" to the Atlas. Doing so just slows you down.

[OneEyed Jack]

Roadkill, on 07 December 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Someone who plays 2 hours per session 2-3 times per week is not someone who "barely plays." In fact, that description covers the bulk of players in f2p games. Those who play 20 hours per week are like forum posters - a distinctly vocal minority.

That is distinctly different from the 20 hours per month that you mentioned and I quoted. Bit it's still beside the point.

Roadkill, on 07 December 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

That is correct, but to do so you'll have to stop assuming that normal players are online 20 hours per week. That's what I'm trying to point out in an effort to get people to realize that 20 hours of gameplay just to outfit an Atlas, let alone buy one, is excessive for the average player.

I assume no such thing. But I am saying that 20 hours of in-game is by no means unreasonable to buy the biggest, most expensive mech in the game. We're not talking about "buy a mech" here. We're talking about the very top end, price-wise. And I'm saying that it doesn't matter if that 20 hours is in a single day or over a year, it's still the same amount of time in-game, and the same amount of effort.

Roadkill, on 07 December 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

You aren't paying attention. As I've pointed out repeatedly, even for players who buy their Mechs with MC and then pay for Premium time while playing, the current economy is out of whack. It's even worse for f2p players, but as it stands the economy is broken even for paying players.

And I'm saying it's not. I do not pay. Let me repeat that in case you missed it (again). I do not pay. I'm well aware of the in-game economy, such as it is. And i specifically mentioned earlier that it could probably use a return to 8v8 levels. That's my opinion, to which I am entitled, and I offer it to counter your opinion.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

My 3rd Alt averages 171k Also active since March... But has a Heavy Metal...

Comparing an experienced player like yourself to the average players (usually newcomers) is not fair, don't you think?

Newbies who are in non-elited mechs and are usually the first to die has every right to say the game progression is steep since they most probably earn 50-60K per match. That's discouraging. Customizations are also cost-prohibitive due to ranging from 250-750K.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 December 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Roadkill, on 04 December 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

At which point you need to buy and outfit a new Mech.

7 million c-bills will buy and outfit some lights and mediums, but that's it. It isn't enough for a heavy or an assault - it won't even buy some assaults, let alone outfit it.

you mean people have to play a video game more to get more stuff!? what a tragedy! PGI should be handing out MC as wages because it's hard work all this videogaming.

Greyboots, on 01 December 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

People's perspective on the grind will vary.

• Casual free players will hate it with a vengeance.
  
• Free players with time on their hands will think it's "a little steep"
  
• Casual Premium Time players will think it's "a little steep".
  
• Premium players with time on their hands will think it's just fine.
  
• People with money to throw at the game don't care because they can so drastically shortcut it that might as well not be there.

The truth is that there's no "right" opinion here and anyone trying to profess they have the "right" opinion is trying to pull the wool over your eyes.

but what is grind?

ever played FF or any other RPG? you can spend literally DAYS just to get 5% of a game completed. however you're PLAYING A GAME you're not at work. so no game has grind if you ENJOY PLAYING!

the only games with "grind" are those that are no fun. so when i see all these complaints about the "grind" all i see is people who enjoyed playing a game for ten minutes and then after became impatiecient toddlers who wouldn't last a moment in a real job. or perhaps PGI needs to inject more fun into the game, that's easily still on the cards but as another debate...

in the meantime you want real "grind" then work for my boss until then play a game is nothing to whinge about like it's a horrible workload. or if playing a game for hours to earn mechs is too much for you try candy crush, it rewards the lazy imediatly!

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 09 December 2013 - 12:18 AM.

[Blurry]

Grind is Good - Gordon Gecko

[DeadlyFred]

The "rationale" of saying something is worse and thus makes something else better by comparison is a complete and utter logical fallacy: stop using it. Claiming that if there is no grind no one would play is also a baseless assumption as well. How many people play Counter-Strike on a daily basis? Grind tends to often be something that gets put in with the vain purpose of obfuscating uninteresting gameplay with the incentive for advancement (and it does work, make no mistake, but it is what it is). Claiming people who complain about the grind are just freeloading leeches is also rather disingenuous since, unless you spend money on premium time, your money isn't doing much or anything to ease said grind.

Personally, I don't play games to level up {Scrap}, I play them to enjoy the gameplay. Thankfully MWO is enjoyable enough so far that I can overlook the obnoxiously slow credit gain for now.