232 replies to this topic

[Tresch]

Remember guys, anything in brackets is for DEMONSTRATION ONLY and subject to change. Probably just random numbers they through in there. Read it as "Tonnage must be within "some number" and "some larger number"

[Blurry]

CarpetShark, on 02 December 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

So, instead of fixing the matchmaker, PGI has found a way to make money with it.

Bravo, PGI. Bravo...

just stunning.

how long before match wait we need vote and vote again and revote so basically we wait and wait and hopefully get a match?
Within that match we may be lucky if we withing 800t vs our opponents and that is good?
how about with 10t per mech or 120 total - a tight group weight?
na rather try and make $ of {Scrap} they have then fix things.
good night sweet prince.

[Zerberus]

Hmmm....

The Shuffle vote seems iffy, I see the potential for people to get into eternal shuffle hell by no doing of their own other than launching a match, and tbh in CW you`re dropping for that planet /territory, so you should have to fight whoever is there defending it.. Just IMO.

And teh "rwards for Readiness " system the way I ( and others) seem to understand it (team ready faster = higher rewards) is a MOAB falling from the sky.... The amount of harassment that people already have to endure for not clicking (for whatever reason, there are in fact legitimate ones as I found out myself a few days ago) is often well beyond toxic.

So now those same people will be getting roasted by a million more flamers whining /screaming /throwing a tantrum about their bonus going down, at the same time that they have to somehow arrange themselves with said Bunsen-brained squadmates and choose a mech that will still fit.

TBH now that I`ve typed it out, it concerns me even more...... Not passing judgement, but I do not currently think that this is a good idea, at least not 1:1 as proposed...

[3rdworld]

What do you mean by shuffle match? Did you mean shuffle Map? or are you talking about reshuffling the members of the teams?

Also your bonus should give a bonus to the person switching mechs to make the match, not the person to hit ready on their 733C first and not change.

[Darkblood]

Thread already way too long to read so this must have been asked, but I´ll do again anyway:

WHAT HAPPENS IF EVERYONE JUST SELECTS THEIR FAVORITE MECHS (going above or below the limits) AND NOBODY CAVES IN? DO WE JUST SIT AT THE READY SCREEN FOREVER?

If it just lunches at the end of 60 seconds, than this is just stupid, people will just ignore the c-bill bonus and play whatever they like.

[Yankee Sullivan]

dymlos2003, on 02 December 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Why are you guys complaining over a minute or two? We already do this in LoL or DOTA.

I swear you guys just complain about everything. Sure people are going to be idiotic and pick assaults without talking to the team. Well report him or ask PGI for a rep system.

All these problems you guys are complaining about are because of the PLAYERS (Yourselves). Must show how ****** you guys are.

I don't play LoL and DoTA for exactly that reason.

[Cassius Longinus]

The tonnage limits are crazy low. I appreciate that we need to fix the meta surrounding medium mechs, but 120t/lance is going to prove to be unworkable.

The other thing is that introducing steps into your startup, similar to LoL is a really bad way to go about it. You should be doing the tonnage limitations behind the scene, and just force premade lances to fit certain criteria. People expect to "hit button receive game", If fitting an atlas into a random game is hard, then it just takes longer, and that is fine. This middling route is going to cause nothing but tears and grief.

[Screech]

Voting for the type of match after the drop is a huge problem, please do not go through with this as the amount of disconnects and QQing will be epic. Putting tonnage limits on pugs is even sillier as the bickering will become half the game.

Perhaps if they said these changes were the first step of community warfare it would be better received, The amount of forum fights and TKing in game these changes will cause might be the closest we come to true community warfare.

[Pwnocchio]

I'm glad they are working on tonnage limits and MM improvement, but I'm going to state my concerns with the proposed implementation.

1. I already hate it when the match countdown goes all the way to 60 seconds. If you add up the time it takes to exit a game, diddle your mechs (rebuying consumables, changing chassis), Hit launch and wait for it to sort you into a match, then wait for 'up to' 60 seconds clock to tick down you've just spent several minutes, then the match starts and it takes a few more minutes to get into the action.

So right now, in the current meta, even with the recent improvement of the count-down clock clipping to 20 seconds once everyone is in the game, I'm not really happy about the ratio of Kicking *** to Waiting to Kick ***.

If this new system pushes more time in the waiting portion THAT could be a game killer for me, especially if I have to sit through two timers.

2. This system you have in concept is fertile soil for Trolls. You WILL have players that troll their team by not voting until the last second, who then diddle around with trying to select an ATLAS even though their team needs something < 40 tons, or who simply doesn't select a mech until the last second. The tears of their team mates who watch their CBill bonus go down the tube will be mana for their diabolically starved appetite.

Deathlike, on 02 December 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

It's actually going to cost money to vote for a shuffle?

That makes literally no sense to me.

If you don't make it cost money you are just giving trolls another avenue for harassing the community. "Lets form a shuffle Lance and drive nerds insane!"

[Thorn Hallis]

DOTA and LoL actually came to my mind when I first read the command chair post. Once this goes live we'll live in interesting times, thats for sure.

[Pwnocchio]

They need to just lock players into the match bonus based on when each individual clicks.

That way the trolls only waste the teams time (and their own earnings), not their team mates C-Bill bonus.

Tresch, on 03 December 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

Remember guys, anything in brackets is for DEMONSTRATION ONLY and subject to change

This is precisely why people need to rage about those numbers, so they will change them in a good way.

[Thorn Hallis]

Pwnocchio, on 03 December 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

They need to just lock players into the match bonus based on when each individual clicks.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Bagheera]

Pwnocchio, on 03 December 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

They need to just lock players into the match bonus based on when each individual clicks.

This.

[Nunspa]

Darkblood, on 03 December 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Thread already way too long to read so this must have been asked, but I´ll do again anyway:

WHAT HAPPENS IF EVERYONE JUST SELECTS THEIR FAVORITE MECHS (going above or below the limits) AND NOBODY CAVES IN? DO WE JUST SIT AT THE READY SCREEN FOREVER?

If it just lunches at the end of 60 seconds, than this is just stupid, people will just ignore the c-bill bonus and play whatever they like.

1) ease off on the caps

2) re-shuffle the match, want to play? play nice and make tonnage limit..... the groups that team up and work though there selfish issues will play more and win more.

3) if all you own are assault mechs, you now have plenty of time to get to know your medium mechs (remember according to lore they are fielded a LOT more often then any other class of mech, they are the work horses of the mechwarrior universe)

4) expect games to end quicker.... no longer do you have to focus fire down 8 stalkers (like my group had to last night)

5) adapt or go play Hawken, tonnage limits have been talked about forever.. this is not a surprise.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do agree the proposed limits are too low..

I would shoot for 500-620.... brings the focus to medium mechs (as it should) and allows for a good mix

at 620
a light lance will weight about 120 tons (assuming 4 mechs at 30 tons each)
a med lance will clock in at about 200 tons (assuming 4 - 50 ton mechs)
leaving a heavy/assault lance will have the remainder balance (4-75 ton mechs)

500 will hurt, but come on! bring it!
a light lance will weight about 120 tons (assuming 4 mechs at 30 tons each)
a med lance will clock in at about 200 tons (assuming 4 - 50 ton mechs)
the last lance will have about 180 ton to play (assuming 1 - 90, 3 30s)

you can always mix and match of course...

Edited by Nunspa, 03 December 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

I'm going to go step by step through Bryans post for public matches and put my conclusions/ideas where its ultimately going to go.

Quote

Launching into a public match is the default gameplay path. Players simply click the launch button in the front end and they are matched against other players.

I assume then that the majority of the Community Warfare factional system (playing for or against factions, earning rep, merc contracts ect) will be played out through this setup (if it proves successful) and that private matches would be almost a side game to it (given the raw power a leader in that system would be granted in terms of match paramaters) and that the public matches are where the Community Warfare rubber will meet the road.

Quote

Matchmaking

A Mercenary player with no allegiance via the contract system will be placed in a random alliance bucket. Players with an allegiance will be place in their appropriate faction alliance bucket along with any other faction players. There will be [2] alliance buckets created. Once players are placed into alliance buckets, they are matched against each other by using their Elo score.

I interpret this to mean that pre Clan Invasion that the 2 buckets of factions would be the lore based Federated Commonwealth Alliance (Steiner/Davion) VS. Concord of Kapteyn (Kurita/Marik/Liao), then possibly when the Clans show up, the buckets get readjusted to Inner Sphere VS Clan. (If that's at all correct, then it would be interesting to see where they decide to place the Free Rasalhague Republic pre clan invasion - possibly with FedCom to keep the factions even on 3v3, or Houses Marik and Liao during the Invasion - possibly all IS thrown together under the rule, "If the Successor States don't hang together they shall all hang separately"...

Quote

Public Ready Screen

After matchmaking, players enter a game instance and are held at the ready screen. The Public Ready Screen has two phases.

Phase One – Voting [60+] seconds

Players have three choices during the voting phase, and may only chose to vote for one option. Vote for a match, vote to shuffle the match selection, or abstain from voting. Voting options (match/shuffle) are represented by an image. To place a vote, the player needs only click on the image. The current vote count is overlaid on top of the image. Once a player has voted for either a match or shuffle, that vote is locked in. Voting for a match has no cost, while voting to shuffle has a nominal escalating CB and then MC fee for each successful vote passed. This fee is collected from all players who opted to vote for a shuffle. If a shuffle wins, two new matches are randomly created and the voting process starts over again.

NOTE: the final design of the shuffle is subject to some other design considerations currently being reviewed.

Basically I read this as a way to allow players a chance within a tight limit to avoid maps most of the community loathes (Terra Therma and Caustic Valley spring to mind as unpopular maps overall) However with first c-bills then MC rising costs would limit abuse (or at least I suspect that's why its there to limit the trolling) and discourage someone trying to game the map choice system to build a public match.

Quote

Phase Two – Ready Up [60+] seconds

Now that the match is locked in, players can begin to organize and plan for the battle. The first order of business will be meeting the tonnage restrictions. Each team tonnage total must fall between [240] and [480] tons. Players can bring up to [8] BattleMechs with them to battle. For the purposes of lore, these are transported in a DropShip. Selecting a `Mech readies the `Mech and adds it to your teams total tonnage. The team’s tonnage will be displayed at the top of the team’s player list, showing each person’s `Mech and weight. The number will show total weight and the amount above or below the min/max tonnage limits. Players are encouraged to quickly organize through a match bonus mechanism. A match CB bonus starts at [10%] and goes down to [0%] at a rate of [1%] every [6] seconds. If both teams manage to ready up quickly, each player will receive a match CB bonus on any earnings they may receive.
Once all players are readied, and the tonnage limits are met for each team, the match is locked in and a [10] second countdown clock starts.

NOTE: This ready screen will remove the need for a match ready screen.

And here is where the idea kinda breaks down. I'm gonna requote it step by step, because this really is going to need major revision.

Quote

Phase Two – Ready Up [60+] seconds

Now that the match is locked in, players can begin to organize and plan for the battle. The first order of business will be meeting the tonnage restrictions. Each team tonnage total must fall between [240] and [480] tons. Players can bring up to [8] BattleMechs with them to battle. For the purposes of lore, these are transported in a DropShip.

The " [ ] " numbers on team tonnage would have to be adjusted. Since they are in the " [ ] " brackets I expect they will be, so I'm not gonna worry about it at this time. The " [ ] " Brackets on mechs everybody carries in their private "DropShip", is fine at any number above 2 really. (I can see a possibility that players would get 2 slots in their personal "DropShip" standard with the ability to buy more say to a max of 12 - a Union's mech capacity)

Quote

Selecting a `Mech readies the `Mech and adds it to your teams total tonnage.

So we have our "DropShip" selection of mechs, from which we select a mech, which once selected is automatically added to our matches teams tonnage list.

And frankly unless there is a major component to this setup your leaving out of this dev post (like changing rewards/weighting rewards to greatly encourage players to drop light, or at least uncouple rewards away from how they are earned now, damage inflicted, componets destroyed, kill assist ect gets you best c-bill returns per match played - which encourages the average player to drop heavier rather than lighter) this is where this new system screws the pooch.

Allowing players to select their mechs in a non weight restricted system is not a problem - it's what we currently have in game now - but it will never work within a weight restricted/balance system unless the team tonnage allowance is so high, you defeat the very purpose of the weight balancing in the first place.

The only way I see this setup even remotely working as stated is if you allow the game to randomly select the players mechs from the selection of mechs in our "DropShips", basically we trade the current system of selected mech piloted on random map - what we have now - , to a semi random mech piloted on a semi random map. However that's abusable simply by loading up nothing but assaults in your "DropShip", semi-countered with the ability of the matchmaker to draw a players mech from the 4 trials (only if they don't carry a minimally balanced "DropShip" some mediums & heavies at least) thus creating a carrot (you really want to build a balanced stable) or stick (all assaults, no balance? A trial mech it is then!) approach. However I should point out, even this way I doubt it works as intended.

The best path if weight balancing is the key to MWO's future, is rebuilding the monetary reward system, to try and encourage mech weight diversify.

Quote

The team’s tonnage will be displayed at the top of the team’s player list, showing each person’s `Mech and weight. The number will show total weight and the amount above or below the min/max tonnage limits.

Private matches of grown adults committed to serious play, that would work ok that way. The typical PUG will be a disaster. My guess is you will see same team raging (even if that's no more than snide remarks) a majority of the time. You guys think hearding cats is hard? Hell your having to add a Team Death Match Mode because base capping is considered a troll move because NO ONE GOES BACK TO DEFEND THE BASE then complain about the loss and wasting of players time for no reward. If getting a team organized enough to stop, go back and protect the base to prevent defeat is a bridge to far, you think suddenly these same mechwarriors are going to corrdinate enough to share who get to play in the 'assault-mech-big-boy-boots' from match to match?

Quote

Players are encouraged to quickly organize through a match bonus mechanism. A match CB bonus starts at [10%] and goes down to [0%] at a rate of [1%] every [6] seconds. If both teams manage to ready up quickly, each player will receive a match CB bonus on any earnings they may receive.
Once all players are readied, and the tonnage limits are met for each team, the match is locked in and a [10] second countdown clock starts.

NOTE: This ready screen will remove the need for a match ready screen.

And we already see how well that's going to work in just the responses in this thread, with players already asking that the button/bonus reward be individualized for themselves already so they don't have to worry about there 'teammate' screwing up their personal reward bonus of c-bills by being slower on the click the button move. Sorry, I've liked a lot of what I've read in your dev posts the last few days, but this ones unworkable as presented, and game breaking if its the way you insist on going.

[Death Mallet]

Tonnage limits = good

Players working it out amongst their team = Bad

All mechs should be dropped into a bucket for their faction and then MM should pull from that bucket to create roughly equal tonnage teams.

[Kamelkaze]

Too much complicated!

[Leigus]

I like the idea of tonnage limitations, but please don't make that the only factor. Our experience with the Marik Civil war is that the easiest way to fit a tonnage bill is to run a Company of a few lights, a few Assaults, and two or three heavies (leaving mediums ignored, as with the current system).

I'd appreciate seeing some system to encourage the use of mediums (and heavies). Options could be a bonus in C-Bills or a required amount of mediums and heavies, or some other system to encourage diverse use of weight classes. The 3 - 3 - 3 - 3 format (three mechs of each weight class) is something we Mariks have also tried, but that may not be ideal either.

Perhaps a system in which players declare their intended weight class before pressing "Launch" and entering the MM. This would make encouraging weight class diversity easier, and would also simplify the process of meeting a tonnage bill (your wouldn't get 12 Atlas pilots dropped into the same game, forcing the bulk of them to play Locusts.)

Edited by Leigus, 03 December 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[tulip]

Firstly;
Having to pay any currency, digital or real, to shuffle maps available to vote for is downright pathetic, make all of the maps available to vote for at all times.

Secondly;
Expecting players that don't know each other to change what mech they will drop in so that someone else can drop in the one they want is ridiculously naive, if someone wants to earn XP (or even bonus XP) for a certain mech they will not swap to another to meet tonnage limits nor should they have too! Imagine if a player has a hero mech and wants to drop in it for the extra CBills but that's too heavy for their team, do you expect someone to not drop in a mech they've paid real money for and swap to something lighter? They won't they would just demand someone else on their teams swaps mechs.

You're obviously open to using CBill bonuses as an incentive to matchmaking weight, how about you add a bonus for weight then pick a tonnage and scale CBill earnings from that (make hero mechs exempt). So any mech under your weight (using 65 for an example) would gain a CBill bonus proportionate to how much they're lighter than 65. Or add a flat bonus for everyone in the match gets but being over the average weight on your team (calculated when you drop) disqualifies you for payment of this new bonus.

Edited by tulip, 03 December 2013 - 03:44 PM.

[Karl Marlow]

anubis969, on 02 December 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Except you don't have access to your entire 'mech collection in the lobby. You only have the 'mechs you preselected. So for example a player could load their drop ship like this:



Thereby forcing their team into letting them take an assault. Of course this throws up another problem; what happens if it's literally impossible for your team to be bellow the max tonnage because too many people take an all assault drop ship?

I suppose the primary thing that would stop you from loading your dropship like that is the [480] ton limit you have on your dropship.

Seriously, did anyone read the post before raging?