21 replies to this topic

[Mcchuggernaut]

I'm not a new player, but this seemed like the only appropriate place to post this question.

I am having trouble deciding between the ERPPC and PPC. The dual ERPPCs run too hot for my build on Terra Therma (Mordor), and Caustic Valley is dicey. I considered ERPPCs because they are the same weight, have a longer range, and have no minimum range, but those hot maps make me fire too damn slow to stop someone charging at me before I take a beating.

My question is this: Is the PPC min-range a hard cap (As in no damage at all inside 90 meters) or a soft cap that scales the damage down over those 90 meters? If I can still do 10 damage at 45 meters, then I may as well keep the regular PPCs, cause it isn't very often someone is within 45 meters of you, and by the time someone gets that close to me they are usually near dead and easy to hit in the core and finish off.

Thanks for the help in advance!

[TercieI]

Mcchuggernaut, on 02 December 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I'm not a new player, but this seemed like the only appropriate place to post this question.

I am having trouble deciding between the ERPPC and PPC. The dual ERPPCs run too hot for my build on Terra Therma (Mordor), and Caustic Valley is dicey. I considered ERPPCs because they are the same weight, have a longer range, and have no minimum range, but those hot maps make me fire too damn slow to stop someone charging at me before I take a beating.

My question is this: Is the PPC min-range a hard cap (As in no damage at all inside 90 meters) or a soft cap that scales the damage down over those 90 meters? If I can still do 10 damage at 45 meters, then I may as well keep the regular PPCs, cause it isn't very often someone is within 45 meters of you, and by the time someone gets that close to me they are usually near dead and easy to hit in the core and finish off.

Thanks for the help in advance!

It used to be a soft cap, now it's hard. 0 damage <90M. Still, regular PPCs are much superior right now, IMO, ERPPCs are just too hot.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Terciel1976, on 02 December 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

It used to be a soft cap, now it's hard. 0 damage <90M. Still, regular PPCs are much superior right now, IMO, ERPPCs are just too hot.

Thanks! I was wondering if a mix would be best then, since that would keep my heat down, but I could still hit at all ranges. Trying that out!

[Koniving]

When it began, it was a hard cap. Then it became a soft cap, which combined with reduce heat levels brought the weapon to an extremely abused state. Reset back to original settings with additional speed (faster than closed beta, but slower than the overbuffed state), it's once again a hard cap.

Perhaps sometime in the future PGI will add the Field Inhibitors of regular PPCs to allow you to run them at close range with the proper risk.

And yes. Mixing is good when two ER PPCs (30 heat) is too hot. With one of each, it's 15+10 (25 heat), which even a single heatsink trial mech can handle with the occasional let off of the trigger.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Koniving, on 02 December 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Perhaps sometime in the future PGI will add the Field Inhibitors of regular PPCs to allow you to run them at close range with the proper risk.

Interesting idea.

[Hex Pallett]

I would love to see inhibitor in use. Until then, if you're using ERPPC be prepared to get at least 15 DHS in there. If you're using two then 20. ERPPC are so hot you gotta basically build your entire loadout around it. Regular ones will give you far more space to breath, especially so when you have like 4xMLas as backup weapons.

[TheCaptainJZ]

My suggestion is to use standard PPCs with some kind of short range back up. If that doesn't work, you could go the 1 PPC, 1 ER PPC route as a compromise. You still do the 20 damage in the mid-range that you're likely to be firing in anyway.

[sneeking]

if I was to mix erppc and ppc I would set three groups for them.

1 erppc
2 erppc+ppc
3 ppc

that way at least you could manage heat better especially when targets are in erppc range but out of ppc range, also if the hard point locations are spread you can fire from cover without wasting heat on rocks walls or friends.

[Rushin Roulette]

sneeking, on 03 December 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

if I was to mix erppc and ppc I would set three groups for them.

1 erppc
2 erppc+ppc
3 ppc

that way at least you could manage heat better especially when targets are in erppc range but out of ppc range, also if the hard point locations are spread you can fire from cover without wasting heat on rocks walls or friends.

Just to add to this, dont make any weapon group with more than 2 PPCs or ERPPCs.

The reasion for this is that the ghost heat penalty system will hit hard if you fire more than 2 PPC weapons within 0,5 seconds. You dont get any penalty heat if you fire 2 PPCs, wait half a second and fire the 3rd one after.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 03 December 2013 - 02:32 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

If all i had was a ppc and er ppc, i'd only have two groups, one on each mouse button. i'd just press one or the other or both.

[Buckminster]

What else do you have on your mech, and what kind of mech is it?

I found on my K2 (this was a while ago so take it with a grain of salt) that twin ERPPCs worked very well. I had the thing jam packed of DHS, and my only other weapons were MGs (no heat!), so I didn't have any major heat problems. But if I had the stock pair of MLs on there too, then things just ran way too hot to use ERPPCs.

[scJazz]

The only time I've mixed PPC and ERPPC I used a macro to Fire ERPPC or Both. After awhile I said the hell with it and just stopped using ERPPCs. None of my current configs use them at all and to be clear only 1 of my 18 mechs uses PPCs at all. I'm not even sure I like that one either.

I think PPCs with the scaled damage under 90m @ 10 heat and ERPPCs around 13 or 14 heat might be balanced.

[Bront]

I use a single ERPPC on a few mechs, but I'm experimenting going to regular PPCs, because ERPPCs are just too darn hot for brawling anyway for most mechs.

I do think they need to bring the soft minimum on PPCs back, and I also think they're all too hot (though ERPPCs particularly so).

[scJazz]

Bront, on 03 December 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

I use a single ERPPC on a few mechs, but I'm experimenting going to regular PPCs, because ERPPCs are just too darn hot for brawling anyway for most mechs.

I do think they need to bring the soft minimum on PPCs back, and I also think they're all too hot (though ERPPCs particularly so).

I somewhat agree with you and you with me but I don't agree with Lupus Aurelius's multiple un-nerf Game Balance posts.

The Tyranny of the PPC was broken! This is a very good thing. I want any adjustments to be done carefully, and slowly.

Only once heat levels were brought up to current levels AND the HARD min introduced for PPCs did we see ACs make a comeback. All while ACs not having been changed at all during the "PPCOnline" era.

[Bront]

scJazz, on 03 December 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

Only once heat levels were brought up to current levels AND the HARD min introduced for PPCs did we see ACs make a comeback. All while ACs not having been changed at all during the "PPCOnline" era.

I'd argue that ACs never were gone as much as PPC/Gauss was the meta till they shattered it, at which point the overpoweredness of ACs has shone. With the Gauss where it was, there was no reason to take the dual AC5s. Most folks still prefered ACs to energy weapons (or usually a mix), but the PPC nerf pushed the balance from aiming slightly to PPCs (prior to the big hammer, their heat was higher and they had dented PPC use) to full blown AC Whoring (The UAC5-calipse for 2 weeks didn't help either) since it also took out the Gauss.

Of course, they could always just improve heat dissipation, but let's not get any silly ideas here...

[scJazz]

Bront, on 03 December 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

I'd argue that ACs never were gone as much as PPC/Gauss was the meta till they shattered it, at which point the overpoweredness of ACs has shone. With the Gauss where it was, there was no reason to take the dual AC5s. Most folks still prefered ACs to energy weapons (or usually a mix), but the PPC nerf pushed the balance from aiming slightly to PPCs (prior to the big hammer, their heat was higher and they had dented PPC use) to full blown AC Whoring (The UAC5-calipse for 2 weeks didn't help either) since it also took out the Gauss.

Of course, they could always just improve heat dissipation, but let's not get any silly ideas here...

We are in essence arguing the same side of the coin. As I said and you quoted... during the entire Gauss + (X)PPC meta Autocannon values were unchanged. Only AC2s have been changed and honestly, they needed it.

Still the change is to a Meta that requires ammo and eats in prodigious amounts from one that required little more than W+M1.

To state that Autocannon are now revealed as being OP is a bit ill-considered. LRMs are still useless... Streaks are great for getting Lights to go away but useful for nothing else. SRMs might be great if they'd ever make the "bullet" small enough that it didn't collide with every building and rock edge around. These things beg the question... what weapon is balanced? While the question itself ignores the obvious since the Launch Tournament showed everyone that the Meta was 2 PPCs plus as many AC5s as you can fit or the reverse 2 AC5s and as many PPCs.

Still... weapon balance is better than it ever has been... technically a low barrier to surpass but none the less true.

Which of our weapons is balanced?

[Koniving]

TheCaptainJZ, on 02 December 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

My suggestion is to use standard PPCs with some kind of short range back up. If that doesn't work, you could go the 1 PPC, 1 ER PPC route as a compromise. You still do the 20 damage in the mid-range that you're likely to be firing in anyway.

A good suggestion.

My rigs that do use twin PPCs back them up with small pulse lasers, which are very low heat, shortest beam time of all lasers in the game, fill the gap of PPCs, and can fire faster than any other laser weapon. If you have a ballistic, tack on an AC/5 for good measure or if you have a missile, a limited number of SRMs can make an okay low-heat back-up weapon as well. Too many SRMs however and it's too hot to be worth while.

[Israel Finklestein]

Just use PPC and find some other way to compensate for the minimum range, ERPPCs are terrible right now. You can wedge some lasers in the build if you have the slots, or just use a fast mech for boating PPCs. I have 3 on a Quickdraw and I can just back away from things and shoot them since I go around 100km/h.

[Bront]

scJazz, on 03 December 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

We are in essence arguing the same side of the coin. As I said and you quoted... during the entire Gauss + (X)PPC meta Autocannon values were unchanged. Only AC2s have been changed and honestly, they needed it.

Still the change is to a Meta that requires ammo and eats in prodigious amounts from one that required little more than W+M1.

To state that Autocannon are now revealed as being OP is a bit ill-considered. LRMs are still useless... Streaks are great for getting Lights to go away but useful for nothing else. SRMs might be great if they'd ever make the "bullet" small enough that it didn't collide with every building and rock edge around. These things beg the question... what weapon is balanced? While the question itself ignores the obvious since the Launch Tournament showed everyone that the Meta was 2 PPCs plus as many AC5s as you can fit or the reverse 2 AC5s and as many PPCs.

Still... weapon balance is better than it ever has been... technically a low barrier to surpass but none the less true.

Which of our weapons is balanced?

I disagree with LRMs being entirely useless, but otherwise, yes, it's pretty much 2 different views of what is essentially the same argument.

The question then becomes, where do we go from here? PPC minimum range fix doesn't really adjust the balance much other than make ERPPCs effectively even less useful, a laser buff means stuff dies faster in general, but doesn't change the basic meta much. I think a slight ROF nerf of the AC2 and 5 (to .6 and 1.75) would help a bit (It would reign in DPS/Dakka builds slightly, just enough to put their DPS a little more in line, given the range they're effective at), but all that might do is thrust AC10s and 20s back into prominence. Do that AND fix heat a little bit (increased heat dissipation is effecitvely a buff to all non-balistic weapons), and you might start to have something, but I hope they start slow (IE, Not PPC/Gauss nerf-hammer.)

[Voivode]

When deciding between ERPPC and PPC I like to consider three factors.

1) How fast am I? A faster mech such as a noisy cricket won't have trouble keeping outside 90meters. A Stalker or Atlas will.

2) What other weapons do I have? An atlas may not be able to keep distance for the PPC min range, but it can pack a pair of PPCs and an AC20. For the sake of heat, it may be best to let the AC20 do the talking up close and stick to regular PPCs. But if you pair those PPCs with a Gauss, maybe the ER is the right flavor.

3) Which brings me to the last criteria. How far away will I engage from? This will be influenced by what's happening in #1 and #2