148 replies to this topic

[Zyllos]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

This is definitely what you need to do together. So far, the devs only made the spread smaller. That way lies the AC/10, we don't need two of them (and certainly not one that's 1 ton lighter and 1 crit smaller and 1 heat cooler). The sticking point is that the growing spread neuters its range completely, and that at the range it's still effective there are better options. (some may be 1-3 tons heavier, but they dealbetter alpha and DPS damage.)

I 100% agree with this.

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

I think this will be very difficult to achieve due to the way crits work. Of course, some people will also argue about what "critting better" even means. I think the safest bet in regards to crit is to make sure that the LBX (in canister/shotgun mode) deals more damage to internals.You still won't necessarily take out components better, but at least the enemy mech dies a bit faster.

Not exactly. You can make the critical hits have an even higher critical damage multiplier so that each pellet deals as much damage as an AC/5 for each pellet when a critical hit happens on items.

I think we need to step away from the idea that weapons are only useful if they kill your target as fast as possible. There needs to be weapons that are good at disabling a mech quickly. Having a weapon that does high critical hit damage to equipment is a good step in the right direction for such weapons.

I think SRMs also need this treatment when getting a critical hit against items due to their spreading nature, as that was one of their primary uses, a critical hit seeker. It's just they are very light for the amount of damage they deal, so they are useful against armor also.

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

If they stick with the expanding spread model and no solid-slug mode, then I think the only solution can be raising its damage output to some extent. Of course, that makes it a short range brawler weapon, where canonical it's also a good med to long range weapon.,

It's going to be extremely hard to retain the "extended range" portion of the weapon with the current mechanics involved without it turning into a lighter version of the AC of it's type.

My thoughts come with the LBX/5 and LBX/2 when clan tech comes around.

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Like a Glazer safety round Zyllos?

I am not technical or learned in actual weaponry, but from visual inspection, yes, like that.

[Artgathan]

Zyllos, on 03 December 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

I think we need to step away from the idea that weapons are only useful if they kill your target as fast as possible. There needs to be weapons that are good at disabling a mech quickly. Having a weapon that does high critical hit damage to equipment is a good step in the right direction for such weapons.

Except even then crit-seeking weapons will not be as useful as their "killing" counterparts. Remember, 66% of a mech's health is its armor. For a crit-seeking weapon to be useful it must be twice as powerful against internals as it is against armor in order to be "constant" in terms of damage output.

Also consider that mechs often do not have multiple torso sections open. Usually only or two (rarely 3) internal sections will get exposed before the mech dies, so there isn't much equipment to disable. Consider that to "disable" an Atlas via critical hits, you would need to strip both arms and all of it's torso of armor before nailing it with crits. There is no way that that would ever be faster than just killing the Atlas.

[Zyllos]

Artgathan, on 03 December 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Except even then crit-seeking weapons will not be as useful as their "killing" counterparts. Remember, 66% of a mech's health is its armor. For a crit-seeking weapon to be useful it must be twice as powerful against internals as it is against armor in order to be "constant" in terms of damage output.

Also consider that mechs often do not have multiple torso sections open. Usually only or two (rarely 3) internal sections will get exposed before the mech dies, so there isn't much equipment to disable. Consider that to "disable" an Atlas via critical hits, you would need to strip both arms and all of it's torso of armor before nailing it with crits. There is no way that that would ever be faster than just killing the Atlas.

Your second point is the issues that convergence leads to. It's extremely hard to balance natural spreading weapons when other weapons are pin point accurate so that only one or two sections are open at any given time. This is also why arms are rarely destroyed because why destroy an arm when torso sections take it off when destroyed and it's just as easy, if not easier to hit.

Some of the arm issue could be balanced by allowing armor to be shifted in ways the TT did not allow. I would personally allow for any armor section to allow up to 25% more points to be allocated over TT, but still keep the same number of available points. This means players can "stack" armor in sections while "removing armor" from other sections, which will most likely be arms. This will produce an effect that almost all mech's will have low armor arms and high armor torso sections, maybe leading to more players firing at arms.

But, I find doing the above to be a product of having pin point convergence, thus I think fixing that issue to be the first priority.

Your first point could be balanced by making internal structure equal to the value of the maximum armor. This will lead to the 50/50 needed. This would require weapons to go through double the amount of armor/internal structure to kill a section while critical seeking weapons would be required to bypass between 51% to 75% of the armor/internal structure to disable a section. But a lot of this will still be bypassed with how accurate fire is for weapons without natural spread.

Edited by Zyllos, 03 December 2013 - 09:39 AM.

[Bagheera]

Zyllos, on 03 December 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

The incorrect firing mechanic would be the "shotgun" effect of the LBX. It's suppose to fire a flak canister that explodes when next to a solid object, releasing a spray of pellets in the direction it's travelling. What this does is make the spread similar at all ranges, which allows the LBX to be utilized at the extended ranges without any performance degradation except when going beyond the range limit.

So much this. Also needs:

- Reduce pellet count to 5, 2pts damage per pellet (to armor, retains a possibly boosted bonus against exposed equipment). Note this is really only advantages if the firing mechanic is changed as above. Reducing the number of pellets with current spread just means more chances for one or more to miss.

- Make the recycle time advantage over the AC10 more significant.

Zyllos, on 03 December 2013 - 08:50 AM, said:

As a minor disadvantage, the critical damage system also works against a weapon that does multiple hits to get critical hits because items have HP. It's just better to have weapons that do high damage to one item with a low chance than multiple small hits with high critical hit chance.

Yup, and in many cases it's still faster to just destroy a section outright once it is exposed than it is hitting it with LBx or MG fire and waiting for the crits to kick in. Not sure how to balance thought without risking making them too good on exposed sections.

Also, if LBx ever gets slug rounds, the way to make cluster appealing is to fix them as above and give no crit bonus to the slugs.

Edited by Bagheera, 03 December 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[SiR SockMonkeyDonkey]

This post makes me giggle... have you met my Ilya? it packs 3 lb 10 x's and 120 rounds. It shakes your cage and runs at 64. the rate of fire is faster then the ac10 making 3 of them act like an ultra ac lb10 x LMAO. Averege dmg per match is 800+ av. kills 3 ( only cuz I get cocky) , I've been known to take out half a team with it in pugs from time to time. So, NO! the lb 10 x is NOT useless, try my load out, you will fall in love.

[Master Q]

Artgathan, on 03 December 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Also consider that mechs often do not have multiple torso sections open. Usually only or two (rarely 3) internal sections will get exposed before the mech dies, so there isn't much equipment to disable. Consider that to "disable" an Atlas via critical hits, you would need to strip both arms and all of it's torso of armor before nailing it with crits. There is no way that that would ever be faster than just killing the Atlas.

We're getting back to the failed meta at this point, though.

If you look at TT play, weapon damage spreads out more. The fact that pinpoint alpha-ing is so prevalent in the game makes CT coring basically the "go-to" mechanic for doing damage. That makes critting pointless; why would you crit, when for almost the same weight you can put a weapon on the mech where all the damage goes right where it was pointed every time? While you're busy critting something, the AC40 Jager is coring that enemy and making your contribution pointless.

As long as pinpoint alpha damage is the meta, weapons with spread will be nerfed. It's really that simple.

[Davers]

Artgathan, on 03 December 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

Except even then crit-seeking weapons will not be as useful as their "killing" counterparts. Remember, 66% of a mech's health is its armor. For a crit-seeking weapon to be useful it must be twice as powerful against internals as it is against armor in order to be "constant" in terms of damage output.

Yup. Maybe if they has tripled structure instead of doubled armor then crit seeking weapons would really have a place.

[M0rpHeu5]

@ OP:
Headshots

Edited by M0rpHeu5, 03 December 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[PLOG]

yeah, i just don't buy into the whole AC20 is the best light hunting wpn. Sure IF you hit, it does serious pinpoint damage, but miss(either through lousy aim, hsr, or a good light pilot) and you've wasted proportionately more ammo than any other wpn in the game. Not to mention the reload time...

But i luv the lb10x. I find it to be THE most satisfying weapon to pull the trigger on. Firstly, of all the cannons it's got the best SFX. Most of the other ones have been made to have a very tinny metal bang sound, which may be more "realistic" for all i damn well know, but it doesn't sound as "good". Secondly, even with my **** poor aim i'm almost garenteed to at least inflict some damage. Lastly, it's light and quick firing enough for me.

It may not be the super ultra meta breaking pos that everyone is looking for, but it scratches my itch...

PLOG

[Obelus]

I think LB-10Xs are awesome.

Seriously I do. They're low heat and have a fast rate of fire.

Two reasons I don't use them more.

1. They burn through ammo real quick
2. They get people's attention which I dont want
3. They're heavy and take up alot of slots

Edited by Obelus, 03 December 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

PLOG, on 03 December 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

PLOG

PLOG?

[Piney II]

An Ilya wading into a brawl packing 3 LB-10Xs is not to be trifled with. It will shred some mechs quickly.

[mekabuser]

meta shmeta. I run one on my idragon with a mg. Dragon arms are great for quickshots.
Its situational, but scary effective.

Think..
srm 1o thats a hell of alot easier to use.. plus range.. \
plus the biggest BOOM in the game.

[SniperCon]

Jun Watarase, on 03 December 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Why would i bother trying to crit a mech when the next alpha will core him anyway?

When their next alpha would core you?

[wanderer]

Honestly, you -could- fix LB-X guns fairly easily AND give them a "skill" option to boot.

Rather than having the expanding "shotgun" effect being a wider spread going from 0 -> maximum range, make the spread pattern more complex.

The simpler option is to make the spread pattern more complex. Have it start out relatively broad at close range, narrowing to a tighter pattern at precisely mid-effective range, then spreading out to the original pattern as it hits maximum effective range (and scatters further from there). Think of it looking like two cones touching at their narrowest point, that being the exact center of the LB-X's range.

The more complex option is to give LB-X cannons a "choke"- allowing them to pick the range where the cluster hits it's narrowest spread before expanding outwards.

"Short" would narrow rapidly, hitting it's smallest cluster at the end of the LB-X's short range, spreading to it's original by the end of medium range and having a wider-than-normal spread at long.

"Medium" would work exactly as the first option- smallest at mid-effective, narrowing to that as it goes from short to medium, then spreading again from medium to long.

"Long" would spread broadly to start with, narrowing to it's smallest cluster at the beginning of long range and slowly spreading outwards from there. It'd maintain the "peppershot" effect the longest period of time before becoming a tight pattern of pellets, and lose it the slowest.

[mekabuser]

Mawai, on 03 December 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Well. We play in quite different environments then. I play PUG matches all the time which may be part of the story though a number of the mechs I have seen with gauss rifles have been a part of a group.

1) I see lots of mechs still fielding gauss rifles. Dual gauss rifles are still popular on Jagers, K2s and Cataphracts. I have seen all three in the last 2 days of play.

2) Small and Medium pulse lasers are popular on some smaller mechs. I have seen spiders and a jenner with them recently. The range limitations make them more useful for faster mechs. I have seen a couple of assaults/heavies with large pulse lasers ... not as many as large lasers but still not zero.

3) I was spectating a cataphract yesterday that was very effective with two large lasers and 2 LB10-X. Although pinpoint damage can be more effective ... I have noticed that in general the armor gets worn away from many mechs over the entire mech before they are destroyed. I've also seen some Jagers using the LB10-X.

4) LRM spam is still extremely common though not as much as a few weeks ago. Every match I have played in has some LRM boats. Organized teams appear to still use them very effectively with TAG, Artemis and coordinated fire. (I've never been able to get them to work for me).

5) SSRM are better than they were a couple of months ago.

6) SRM could probably use a tweak ... however, I still see a lot of mechs using them though that may be because the variant doesn't have better choices. At least the 6xSRM6 loadout insta-death isn't in play at the moment ... though I do think SRMs probably need a small tweak.

So, overall, from seeing these weapons actually used in game on a regular basis, I'd have to say that none of the are hopeless though there are some better choices than others.

Finally, at the moment. I agree that AC are probably among the most effective weapons available. Low heat and high rate of fire give a lot of applied dps as well as good alpha. Projectile travel time, ammo weight limitations, weapon weights and crit slots are all constraints on AC builds but that doesn't stop the 2xUAC5, 4xAC5, 3xAC10, 2xAC20 builds from being extremely effective in the right circumstances. It is not enough to label the game "AC Warrior" in the same way it used to be "LRM warrior" but on the other hand, they are among the most effective weapons in the game at the moment.

true all true..

THere is definitely splash damage to the game itself from the communities hatred of the devs. The gameis in a much much much better place than its ever been .
imo, just about every ballance move has been correct.. Including ghost heat.

Theyve squashed all the troll fotm metas which was neccessary since a great percentage of pilots are going to be d bags if they
CAN be D bags.

we had it in mwll too. FLamer hover spam.. dbags.
LT gauss spam .
LT spam.
STREAK spam on solaris.. killed solaris mode mwll.
MWO. raven streak spam. etc etc.

they killed the spam.. If you ran counter meta, like i did from day one.. Mostly ran trials the first 6 months to test the new user experience. , you have a stable of varied mechs with varied loadouts that work well.

ITs one thing they have done right despite all the complaining.

[Kiritumi]

I love lb10x still. Especially when i have two on the same shoulder.

[anonymous161]

Jun Watarase, on 03 December 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Thats a pity. I came back after a 6 month break and all the major problems are still there....its a shame that PGI is just so incompetent.

Yup. However that new hgn assault mech is actually pretty good.

[DONTOR]

The point is to bring 2 of them in an atlas or Orion and Continously do 20 damage with no heat, and eventually laugh when one shot does 50+ damage becuase of crits. Happens often enough, youll know when it does btw.

[kinghouse51]

all the weapons are pointless except for the ac