110 replies to this topic

[Bront]

Bobdolemite, on 04 December 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

I think the unlucky teams are a symptom of people not coping with the changes well, not an indication that the change was a bad one. I do agree though that it would be nice if MM would match lances with like tonnages.

The lance issue could be solved in several ways: commander shuffling lances (though we dont get enough time for this), A lobby system where we can set our lances before hand, in game with players realizing the mismatch and playing accordingly (backing up their teammates rather than running off and leaving them to die.)

I feel that some of these issues will be corrected with time as players acclimate to this "skirmish" based combat, but not all. As long as MM is throwing together lances "randomly" then there will sometimes be mismatches.

All in all though I view this as a good change, perhaps a change that needs tweaking but absolutely loving the game play at the moment (and I PUG exclusively) truly random spawn points is where I believe it should end up but I realize this is a contested idea at the moment =)

I'd actually it match by speed vs weight. I'd rather my un-tweaeked raven going 127 be in the lance with the Locust going 170, and Kintaro and Shadowhawks going 116 than the AC2 Spider going 87 and an AC20 Raven

Edited by Bront, 05 December 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[LQuinze]

Geek Verve, on 05 December 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

What about things like flanking, suppression fire, tactical retreat, reinforcements, pincer maneuvers, choke points, etc.?

All of these tactics are best enabled in a group that is larger than 10 people. (i.e. when you are moving in a blob in the first place). Flanks are much easier split off from the main group organically by 'mechs who are equipped for it, rather than 'mechs that are randomly dropped in a supposed "flanking position".

[Bront]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Finally got a screenshot of the bad Terra Therma starting position:



As you can see, somebody (Me and my lance) is about to be boned.

1st of all, every time I see your name I think "Huggernaut", which brings up some really strange images.

Anyway, on topic, why not turn around and flee rather than simply plodding forward? You basically return to base of sorts before you follow the rest of your team becoming their reinforcements.

Also, not knowing where the other team starts, it's still unlikely you'll see 2 lances if you rush to fight the first one. Sure, a second will likely show up, but not nessessarily.right away. But it looks like either heading up the river or heading back a bit is the best option there. It's hardly a death sentence unless you insist on always engaging as soon as possible.

[RavensScar]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Finally got a screenshot of the bad Terra Therma starting position:



As you can see, somebody (Me and my lance) is about to be boned.

Been screwed by this as well.

I don't know what the spawn locations are for the other team, but it appears that one enemy lance spawns quite close to the isolated lance in B6. One particularly bad fight, I dropped in a 'Lander, with a Raven, a Spider, and (I think) a Locust. My lance actually stuck with me, despite a speed of 55kph.

Next thing we know, there's 2 Jags, a Dragon and an Ilya coming after us. Needless to say, that didn't last long.

The problem is, the 2 teams may have been balanced overall, but that particular engagement was so one-sided that it crippled my team within a couple of minutes.

[Geek Verve]

LQuinze, on 05 December 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

All of these tactics are best enabled in a group that is larger than 10 people. (i.e. when you are moving in a blob in the first place). Flanks are much easier split off from the main group organically by 'mechs who are equipped for it, rather than 'mechs that are randomly dropped in a supposed "flanking position".

So, if it ain't the best case scenario, then it's a fail. Got it.

[Lt David Barns]

RavensScar, on 05 December 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Been screwed by this as well.

I don't know what the spawn locations are for the other team, but it appears that one enemy lance spawns quite close to the isolated lance in B6. One particularly bad fight, I dropped in a 'Lander, with a Raven, a Spider, and (I think) a Locust. My lance actually stuck with me, despite a speed of 55kph.

Next thing we know, there's 2 Jags, a Dragon and an Ilya coming after us. Needless to say, that didn't last long.

The problem is, the 2 teams may have been balanced overall, but that particular engagement was so one-sided that it crippled my team within a couple of minutes.

Had a similar situation in conquest, 1 atlas, 2 shadowhawks (1 was me) and a jenner. Running off would've been a possibility, but then the atlas would have been a free kill. Instead we went to cap the point because, hey, a mixed lance should have at least some chance of making a stand, right? Seconds after 2 ddcs, a misery and a jager cross the next ridge and proceed to turn us into sawdust in a manner of seconds (our jenner got away... barely)

On the other side of the map an enemy lance suffered a similar fate, also no chance of survival whatsoever for anything slower than a light.

End result - about 1/3 of all players roflstomped right of the bat without having a snowball's chance in hell, but hey, nice of us to drop by, right?

Doing 12 vs 12 on maps designed for 8 vs 8 was already a pretty bad decision IMO, but now messing up the gameplay by spontaneously changing spawn locations that were a basic part of the map design (intended encounter areas and stuff...), I have yet to encounter a facepalm picture that would do this justice.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

With all the lances so seperated out in distance it is only a matter of time before alpha lance premades hunt down and destroy the opposing sides charlie lance. Been screenshoting startup positions just to see what could be done with a group on coms. Will take me some time because my ping is bad lately.

But am planning on making kill maps for starting positions for people i run with to use ASAP.

What i have noticed a bit so far is that it is now trurn left and mob to win. Not right anymore..

[LQuinze]

Geek Verve, on 05 December 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

So, if it ain't the best case scenario, then it's a fail. Got it.

Bront, on 05 December 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Anyway, on topic, why not turn around and flee rather than simply plodding forward? You basically return to base of sorts before you follow the rest of your team becoming their reinforcements.

Well, yes. The issue again is not that these odds are somehow insurmountable - they're not. But they dictate and constrain the options from the beginning of the match depending entirely, again, on the way the matchmaker has sorted it, as opposed to a conscious set of choices players have made. Let PUGs make bad decisions and lose. But don't make those bad decisions for them.

These aren't huge criticisms, but attention should be paid to the way changes like this shape the way people play. Some are simply skeptical this change will promote overall improvements in gameplay and will instead drive away players, especially in the absence of other features that would have synergized well with this change (VOIP, lobbies, pre-match 'mech selection).

Edited by LQuinze, 05 December 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[KHETTI]

Had terra therma today, first time since new spawns, got THAT spawn location, 30 seconds it took to get over run by the majority of the enemy team, even tho we were moving away from the position as quickly as possible.
Didn't stand a chance, PGI have actually managed to make a garbage map even worse, not gonna waste my time with it from this point onwards.
Seriously PGI, wake the **** up!, put some actual effort into what you are doing and stop doing stuff half a$$ed.

[Hellcat420]

working as intended to increase sales of the crappy oxide mech.

[Deathlike]

Guys, I suggest you use smurfy's epic awesome map spawn locator for discussion.

Here's Alpine:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...peaks&m=assault

Interestingly, the base on the SW side has more protection due to spawns, but I've actually been overwhelmed twice having spawned there (usually from the NW corner). Although, I'll need more games to determine the best course of action on the map. At the moment, the spawns are kinda sub-optimal and not entirely even.

Here's Tourmaline:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...esert&m=assault

E4 and D5 are the problematic drops, as the spotting/engagement can already determine the match more often than not.

Here's Mordor Terra Therma:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...world&m=assault

Moving the B6 spawn to C6-D6 would probably be more appropriate, given the distance required to travel into the main area, or just any attempt to group.

Also, moving the H5 spawn to G5 would also have a similar effect.

Here's Caustic:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...alley&m=assault

The spawn @ B5 and F3 is literally "on an island" compared to the rest of the team. The only time I've dropped on the northern side, that side got easily overwhelmed (fortunately, the team won). The current drop points make it optimal to go counter-clockwise, but B5 is utterly screwed when you consider the distance from the next friendly lance vs the enemy that will get reinforcements BEFORE you can get your own.

So, yes, this needs to be tweaked further for obvious reasons.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 December 2013 - 11:23 PM.

[Diego Angelus]

I really think they should return to old system and work on maps instead of doing this quick fix thing as usual. spawn like that can work in organized play but even then we don't have option to chose where we spawn. I would hold off something like this until we get UI 2.0 and set up before drop its is just too random for my taste I personally don't have problem with it since I pilot mediums but damn I feel sorry for slow assaults that get stuck with us on Alpine and other tricky places.

[Geek Verve]

LQuinze, on 05 December 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

Well, yes. The issue again is not that these odds are somehow insurmountable - they're not.

Ok. That establishes that it's not a "death sentence".

LQuinze, on 05 December 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

But they dictate and constrain the options from the beginning of the match depending entirely, again, on the way the matchmaker has sorted it, as opposed to a conscious set of choices players have made. Let PUGs make bad decisions and lose. But don't make those bad decisions for them.

When playing that small segment of mechs to which this pertains, certain maps are going to sometimes require a certain strategy. I say "sometimes", because we're only talking about situations where you're in a slow-moving assault mech *and* the enemy lance moves straight to your position *and* is comprised of mechs that can bring down that assault mech quickly *and* your lance mates actually do run off and leave you alone.

Again, a simple pre-match message to your lance along the lines of, "Enemy lance spawns just over this mountain. Let's engage them first," goes a long way. Players love rallying around assault mechs - I know I do. This is not the problem people are making it out to be.

Hellcat420, on 05 December 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

working as intended to increase sales of the crappy oxide mech.

Your tinfoil hat is showing.

Edited by Geek Verve, 06 December 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[SpiralFace]

I find the map the OP posted a bit much. Most pug games I have seen played sees the center lance GOING STRAIGHT not looping around to the bottom lane. Group up at the bridge at e7, and then go on their way.

Good riddance to the old way of playing terra therma. Having the death ball basically just ball up and rush the NARROW gates of mordor was a stupid way of playing on what is a very large and fairly diverse map.

Additionally, if your lance is light enough (Lights and mediums) you can actually harass the opposing lance before they have a chance to meet up.

Personally, I find the wide separation of lances fairly nice now. If you can shift your lance mates to put assault mechs in your center line, and your lighter / flanking forces on your other line, you can actually do some fairly fun things now. Especially once drop limits get introduced in the game.

Edited by SpiralFace, 06 December 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Solutions, well, if we assume Community Warfare then we must accept that one side is the defender and the other is the attacker. Further as even Pirate points are at their closest a few hours away in space the defenders would have an idea that they are coming and could prepare for them. Aerospace fighters can really mess up a sub orbital insertion causing the attacking force to be all spread out while the defenders can stay fairly tightly grouped.

to clarify, to fix this, make it so one group is spread out and the other is close together. Give the spread out group 6-8 different points where they could spawn and make it random at launch that way the defenders can't rush any one location with their lights/mediums without the risk of losing them completely. The defenders get the strength in numbers protection at the start that stops the enemy from rushing foolishly into them as well. It then becomes a game of cat and mouse for 5-7 minutes with spotters spotting, scouts scouting and indirect fire platforms firing until one side gains an advantage then the brawl happens and the match ends. Simple. Tactics, teamwork = Satisfaction and fun for all

[Fut]

Mcchuggernaut, on 04 December 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

That being said, a few are deathtraps. Terra Therma has one of the worst examples. Especially for big mechs that don't move very fast and can't easily regroup. People are starting to figure this out and exploit it. Twice I have been mobbed literally 2 minutes into the game when I fell behind all the other fast mechs trying to get back together and was annihilated. There is nothing you can do in that situation, and it is an unfair disadvantage. People are figuring it out and charging to the spawn points in fast mechs to swarm and pick off the heavies and assaults before they can get to the rest of the team. This would be OK if you didn't get dropped in a lance where you were with a bunch of scout mechs or mediums that ran off and left you, but it often happens. It's irritating, and spending half the game on big maps just trying to reach your team and hoping you don't get found and swarmed by lights and mediums with no backup just takes the fun out of the game.

Alright, so I haven't read much of the thread yet, but figured I'd throw my 2 cents in anyhow.

The way I took these new Spawn Points, was that PGI is attempting to set things up better for CW. One would imagine that the typical Ball-o-Death that we see in games is not going to be the best tactic in the future of MWO - well at least we can hope/wish/pray for this.

The new spawn points also work well with the pre-game lobby, now that the lances are a little more autonomous it would make a lot more sense to ensure that they're properly set up (ie. Sarna claims that a standard lance consists of 1 Light, 1 Medium, and 2 Heavy Mechs).

From my point of view, the new Spawn Points are a great idea, the community just has to get used to the idea and figure out new tactics while in the pre-game lobby and on the battlefield.

Edit:
I guess I didn't even mention all the highlighting/bigging I did in that quote.
From my understanding, the point isn't just to walk back to your group - in case that wasn't obvious from my post.

Edited by Fut, 06 December 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[Bilbo]

Mcchuggernaut, on 05 December 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Finally got a screenshot of the bad Terra Therma starting position:



As you can see, somebody (Me and my lance) is about to be boned.

Why would the matchmaker think it is a good idea to place an Atlas (or any other large, slow mech) in the same lance as three light mechs and stick them in the position indicated by Mcchuggernaut. It happens far too often and pretty much leaves the heavy ***** in the wind on most occasions. Other than that I really like the new system.

[Fut]

Bilbo, on 06 December 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

Why would the matchmaker think it is a good idea to place an Atlas (or any other large, slow mech) in the same lance as three light mechs and stick them in the position indicated by Mcchuggernaut. It happens far too often and pretty much leaves the heavy ***** in the wind on most occasions. Other than that I really like the new system.

Because the game is now set-up to allow you to swap the Atlas out of that "light lance" before you drop on the map... ?

[Saobh]

There is still the problem of ... what the hell is the advantage/point of a Lance right now ? None as there is no advantage to being in one rather then being in other configurations in your team (like going hunting with other lights, or stomping with 5 other heavies or staying back with one other LRM boat etc etc)

Its all very nice that Mechwarrior has this historical thing which is called a "Lance", but as long as there isn't any clear advantage of being/working in one, people will work out what actually works for them.

Thats why you get the blob mechanic in this game, because guess what when most of the team doesn't know each other and the communication tools are next to nill the sound startegy is to group up so that you profit from the safety/locking/firepower of the others (yes like herds)
Things on the ground would be totaly different if there was real commander powers as well as order markers diversity (other then just the 2 huge makers, like pointing enemy hard points, direction of assaults or needed scouting positions) as well as actual incentives for working with your squad/lance (simple stuff like xp/c-bill bonus when helping your lance or by default "see" the enemies the rest of your lance sees without locking or whatever other ways to make this interesting)

I come from the 'Project Reality' crowd (the BF2 mod) and in there you can see that when the "mindless PUGs" are given these types of tools they use them and tactical play (which you often wouldn't have imagined) appear because people crave depth (as mindless pew pew pew rinse and repeat only gets your high for so long before moving on to other games)

So as long as the sole purpose of Lances existing is because they are canon to Mechwarrior, they will be a hinderince to how people play rather then an asset for them to enjoy the game (and thus not mind putting money into it)

[Boris The Spider]

Hey Saobh, missing PR, hoping to hit it up again over the Xmas break! Just have not had the time for the 2 hour long matches lately

---

Game was a lot fairer for solo players when they had a choice of 11 mechs to team up with rather than 3. Previously when dropping solo, I could look round at the other mechs, make a judgement about what they were carrying, their speed, and function then decide that, yes, my mech will sync up quite well with that one. There is a scout going left, OK, should I back him, should I scout right? … That looks like an LRM boat, I could spot for him or the brawlers could use counter-ecm.

I had a lot of choices in how I played the game and feel I could actually do something to effect the outcome. Now its bum luck, your doing what the matchmaker has decided. Good luck Charlie (Mostly PUG lance) the enemy Alpha (usually-premade-lance) are the closest enemy to you, they know exactly where you are and will be bearing down on you shortly. Your orders are to leave that poor Atlas to his fate and try to salvage something from the battle when you catch your team up. Charlie Atlas, your orders are to slow the enemy down.