219 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Homeless Bill, on 04 December 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

You're pissed about their plans for Clans. I'm pissed that they have plans for Clans. How about that other, much-more-important **** we've been waiting on for well over a year?

This is very important, you have to understand.

How else are they going to drain everyone's inflated C-Bill accounts but to outright force them to buy Clan tech? They might even bay more mech bays if they are too attached to their 'mechs to sell them all. WIN/WIN IGP!

[Ngamok]

Unless convergence is fixed, you can't go around relying on BV and ELO. If you make a match with 12 vs. 8 and armor is still the same unless omni mechs have more, I'd wager that 12 people shooting at 8 with pin point damage will still win. We still don't know what they are planning. What if clan Gauss goes 4000 m/s and LRMs go 250 m/s? Then it changes some things.

[Reno Blade]

IMHO it never made sense the clans were so proud of their skills when they had tech that gave them like 50ton advantage on any mech, or even more.
I would call this dishonorable. They were doind 1 vs 1 to honor the opponent, but vs IS mechs that is never fair. no matter what mech, you are going to have more speed and more firepower. Even light/med mechs could kill assault mechs.

There was also the talk by Randal Bills who did the whole Clantech back in the 90s that said he would redo the whole thing if he had the chance.
Lets take this chance and rewrite history for ourselves.
Same as with the unit names - we define it by what we are and how we act, not by the name of some famous lore unit.

[Jak Darren]

Homeless Bill, on 04 December 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

You're pissed about their plans for Clans. I'm pissed that they have plans for Clans. How about that other, much-more-important **** we've been waiting on for well over a year?

It's just another bump in the road on this trend of mismanagement.

I'm right there with you, Bill.

Also, I'm honored to have you in the thread. *Salutes*

[ssm]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Battle Value.

Calculated how? By class? By stock? By TT?

With degree of customisation we currently have and typical in MP games ever-changing meta making some kind of plausible BV system is nearly impossibile.

Also, look how people are raging at upcoming weight restrictions. I can't even imagine how all those self-styled "Lyran Scouts" or "Zeta Batallioneers" will implode if they won't be able to drop in their DDCs all the time.

[Cycleboy]

Leary. Very leary. Nuf said.

[Roadbeer]

Reno Blade, on 04 December 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

IMHO it never made sense the clans were so proud of their skills when they had tech that gave them like 50ton advantage on any mech, or even more.
I would call this dishonorable. They were doind 1 vs 1 to honor the opponent, but vs IS mechs that is never fair. no matter what mech, you are going to have more speed and more firepower. Even light/med mechs could kill assault mechs.

There was also the talk by Randal Bills who did the whole Clantech back in the 90s that said he would redo the whole thing if he had the chance.
Lets take this chance and rewrite history for ourselves.
Same as with the unit names - we define it by what we are and how we act, not by the name of some famous lore unit.

This guy gets it.

[Victor Morson]

Helmer, on 04 December 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Is each phase of Battletech disrespecting the other ones? Do you think they are intentionally disrespecting them? Do you think Paul is intentionally disrespecting the community ?

For the record I have no problem with taking Clans and nerfing certain aspects to help balance matches.

I do have problems if the Clan tech is freely available to everyone, because it WILL be better. Period. I don't care what Russ/Paul think are "better" because they don't even know when something is broken and terrible, so how could they know when something is good?

Why can't they spend 30 seconds fixing MGs, Flamers, LBX, etc? Why can't Paul take the hint and realize 3/4 people here hate Ghost Heat and think it's a horrendous failed mechanic?

They don't know what they're doing, they don't get competitive feedback (I keep telling you people listen to the Merc Star alliance exclusively!), and instead of fixing the mess or starting to listen.. full speed ahead.

All I'm saying is that the way this is going, it will end up with basically forcing people to repurchase their entire 'mech library if they want things like the ability to run Clan XL engines and stuff.. and that is going to have very, very disastrous results.

[Ahja]

For me when they bring out a "bastardized" Clan that will be the day I never buy another thing from this version of the game. Balancing the Clan to this version of the game is a slap in the face to anyone who is a BT/MW fan and should be protested. Sorry to say that but they are getting way too far off a base line (ie ECM and more) and creating an entirely new game at the expense of a long loved game.

[Cryptogear]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 December 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

who are you gonna get to play IS mechs? I won't be if clan is better, will you? none of my friends are gonna play IS tech if clan is superior. Assymetrical matches are fun if you are on the clan side, I'll go with your Idea if YOU promise to only use IS tech and I get clan tech to myself.

Couple of things:
1 - Increase Cbills per match to an actual decent number
2- Bring back R&R only more aggressively (you lost your mechs arm housing an AC20? you now have to pay for the arm AND a new AC20 etc) This will do two things. A: The "metas" that are happening will decrease if not stop. I mean who wants to run all these high damage/cost weapons if they have a chance of having to replace those weapons every/other match. B: You wont see, as often, a drop with 4+ DDC's running XL engines, etc. People will have to start running lower tier mechs in order to progressively save money.
3 - Make the clan mechs EXTREMELY expensive (comparable to sarna) Cbill wise. People will have to save ALOT of money in order to start running Clan mechs/tech.

Edited by Cryptogear, 04 December 2013 - 12:57 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Ahja, on 04 December 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

For me when they bring out a "bastardized" Clan that will be the day I never buy another thing from this version of the game. Balancing the Clan to this version of the game is a slap in the face to anyone who is a BT/MW fan and should be protested. Sorry to say that but they are getting way too far off a base line (ie ECM and more) and creating an entirely new game at the expense of a long loved game.

Clans: Good for a story, bad for game balance. Accept it.

[Tombstoner]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Again, asymmetrical matches are a lot of fun. It would require, however, that there are two "master" factions in the game - Clan and IS - and that the tech was restricted in that way. Obviously not house or Clan specific tech, but overall between those two big tech bases.

However it seems they are going the laziest possible way and just dumping Clantech before Community Warfare directly onto our laps. Anyone that remains playing the game will need to buy this stuff - mark my words - or fall behind because again, even if they try to ruin the weapons, they're going to be lighter and smaller and have less slots.

If I'm right, that will be when MW:O really dies. There won't be riots, people will just stop playing. Nobody wants to rebuy an entire garage at this point.

Having IS vs. Clan with clan being clearly better in just about every way. why play anything other then clan....
Part of the issue with having increased fire power for clan mechs is that time to kill will be much shorter. Implementing TT clan tech is major no.... no with pin point grouping. that why skill based targeting was such an egregiously bad design idea. It perverted TT balance and made all group fired weapons way more powerful then the mech design rules could handle.
clan tech will receive that buff as well and now we got 2x ultra-20's .... 80 point alpha potential with another 80 in less then 4 seconds. for 160 potential and atlas cant survive that.

If a RNG / accuracy coefficient was implemented then all clan tech would need is to be more accurate. . slightly lighter and more heat efficient. slightly longer ranges with less damage drop off.

Clan tech should have been worked on since day one.

[Victor Morson]

To be fair, MW4 had bastardized Clan tech too, but it was generally better and still required different balancing rules. And that was in an era when the IS had much better tech.

I suspect part of this may also be the lack of people to fill both groups, but in the end, I simply do not trust people who think the Atlas is the "Top tier avatar" and is better than the Highlander / think a 2 limit on Large Lasers was a smart idea / etc. to know what is actually OP or underpowered.

[Blacksoul1987]

Cryptogear, on 04 December 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

Couple of things:
1 - increase Cbills per match to an actual decent number
2- Bring back R&R only more aggressively (you lost your mechs arm housing an AC20? you now have to pay for the arm AND a new AC20 etc) This will do two things. A: The "metas" that are happening will decrease of not stop. I mean who wants to run all these high damage/cost weapon if they have a chance of having to replace those weapons every/other match. B: You wont see, as often, a drop with 4+ DDC's running XL engines, etc. People will have to start running lower tier mechs in order to progressively save money.
3 - Make the clan mechs EXTREMELY expensive (comparable to sarna) Cbill wise. People will have to save ALOT of money in order to start running Clan mechs/tech.

so you are gonna run IS mechs? none of that will stop me from using clan tech...only people you are hurting with these suggestions are new players. new players will be using level 1 IS {Scrap} while veterans smash their faces in.....how long do you think they will stick around?

[Victor Morson]

Tombstoner, on 04 December 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Having IS vs. Clan with clan being clearly better in just about every way. why play anything other then clan....

Again, you have to setup a BV style system that accounts for a 'mech and it's weapons.

We should have had that from the start, before ELO, before tonnage.

Even in IS games that would have been a huge help. i.e. a Standard Engine, Single Heatsink 'mech costs far less BV so you could have a low-tier Highlander vs a high-tier Shadow Hawk in that scenario.

Back to the point, this carries over to Clans just fine. Low tier Clan stuff = medium tier IS stuff or better. If a pilot takes a Ryoken on the Clan side, that's enough resources for a pair of Victors on the IS side.

It requires actually tracking metrics rather than just waiting months and randomly changing some numbers based on forum posts, so I have no hope of this happening.

tl/dr:

InnerSphere: Tons of weight and a full 12.
Clans: Far less weight and possibly less than 12.

Result? Clan vs Clan, IS vs IS, and Clan vs IS all play wildly differently without gimping things to such an extreme and allowing everyone to own everything.

Edited by Victor Morson, 04 December 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Cryptogear]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 December 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

so you are gonna run IS mechs? none of that will stop me from using clan tech...only people you are hurting with these suggestions are new players. new players will be using level 1 IS {Scrap} while veterans smash their faces in.....how long do you think they will stick around?

I bet you wont IF you have a chance of actually losing money in a drop. Think of it as a high risk/reward scenario. If you drop in a... lets say 15.2 mil Cbill Mad Dog and get blown to pieces (lose arms/side torso's/leg) you will have to cough up about another 15.2 mil (lets round down and say 10 mil depending on loadout) just to get that thing operational again.

It will REQUIRE people to start think more tactically again. This WAS advertised as "A thinking persons shooter" in the beginning. NOT CoD with giant robots.

Edited by Cryptogear, 04 December 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[Blacksoul1987]

Victor Morson, on 04 December 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Again, you have to setup a BV style system that accounts for a 'mech and it's weapons.

We should have had that from the start, before ELO, before tonnage.

Even in IS games that would have been a huge help. i.e. a Standard Engine, Single Heatsink 'mech costs far less BV so you could have a low-tier Highlander vs a high-tier Shadow Hawk in that scenario.

Back to the point, this carries over to Clans just fine. Low tier Clan stuff = medium tier IS stuff or better. If a pilot takes a Ryoken on the Clan side, that's enough resources for a pair of Victors on the IS side.

It requires actually tracking metrics rather than just waiting months and randomly changing some numbers based on forum posts, so I have no hope of this happening.

tl/dr:

InnerSphere: Tons of weight and a full 12.
Clans: Far less weight and possibly less than 12.

Result? Clan vs Clan, IS vs IS, and Clan vs IS all play wildly differently without gimping things to such an extreme and allowing everyone to own everything.

You are kinda missing his point though... We WANT to be on the side with better tech I would rather be in the ryoken trying to kill 2 victors than in 1 of the victors trying the kill the stormcrow. You will find that many people follow my same train of thought. Are YOU going to pilot inferior IS garbage for me to slay? cause I wont.

Cryptogear, on 04 December 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I bet you wont IF you have a chance of actually losing money in a drop. Think of it as a high risk/reward scenario. If you drop in a... lets say 15.2 mil Cbill Mad Dog and get blown to pieces (lose arms/side torso's/leg) you will have to cough up about another 15.2 mil (lets round down and say 10 mil depending on loadout) just to get that thing operational again.

I'm not concerned about that most games I'm among the highest scoring whether or not i'm in a premade or pug and even when my team gets rolled I often score higher than those on the other team so I'm very confident that clan tech would be beneficial to me.

[Victor Morson]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 December 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

We WANT to be on the side with better tech I would rather be in the ryoken trying to kill 2 victors than in 1 of the victors trying the kill the stormcrow. You will find that many people follow my same train of thought. Are YOU going to pilot inferior IS garbage for me to slay? cause I wont.

You want. Not we.

I'm perfectly happy with the side that has heavier weight and thus more armor, and possibly greater numbers, over advanced tech.

My point is if it's done this way it becomes a debate. It's "Protoss vs Zerg" if you will.

What PGI is trying to do is combine those factions, and in the above example, would you want to play Starcraft if every faction could build every unit?

Edited by Victor Morson, 04 December 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Prezimonto]

I actually wish they had a good AI in the game and added the Clan invasion as a Co-Op mode for factions. Then no one would ***** when getting mopped all over the floor by the better mechs. You could even include salvage, for the occasional match you win, you'd be rewarded not with just cbills, but a chance at a bit of clan tech... to keep or sell on a market.

They could do lots of things and still preserve the actual setting, but they're not... because they want to sell us more over priced collections of pixels instead of trying to do justice to the story/setting.

[Jak Darren]

Blacksoul1987, on 04 December 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

I'm not concerned about that most games I'm among the highest scoring whether or not i'm in a premade or pug and even when my team gets rolled I often score higher than those on the other team so I'm very confident that clan tech would be beneficial to me.

Then you would be a great example for being in a very light Clan mech with limited weaponry. Gives you the opportunity to prove how good you are, and works in with the Clan honor system.

Myself, I will be piloting IS. Period.