62 replies to this topic

[Troutmonkey]

Fun Fact 2: Flamers are not a cone weapon. They deal pinpoint damage. I think they should have an AOE cone and deal damage to multiple components at once. The more components hit, the more heat it should apply

Edited by Troutmonkey, 07 December 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mizore, on 07 December 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Sorry, but have you read the patchnotes?

There's a 90% heat cap, so flamers will never ever shut down an enemy mech on it's own, so stunlocks aren't possible!

There is still a stunlock possible. WHen I am at 90 % heat,and fire a weapon, I get additional heat, that might bring me to 100 % heat. So I shutdown. And being under FLamer fire, I might never go below 90 %, and thus, I am effectively stunlocked.

Buff the flamers damage output. There is a lot less harm in that. (I also like the idea of having other mechs catch fire for a while and the weapon dealing some damage over time.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 December 2013 - 02:15 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

There is still a stunlock possible. WHen I am at 90 % heat,and fire a weapon, I get additional heat, that might bring me to 100 % heat. So I shutdown. And being under FLamer fire, I might never go below 90 %, and thus, I am effectively stunlocked.

No, you'll still be able to start back up while being flamed. Once you're past 90%, the flamer can no longer add additional heat to your mech, and so you will be able to cool down normally until you get back down to 90%. You will however be unable to fire most weapons without shutting down, though this will really only last until the enemy starts to overheat. The flamer generates heat on the mech using it faster and faster the longer it is fired, so eventually he will have to stop flaming you or else he'll shut down himself.

Just hope you have the speed to get away or the armor to tough it out until help arrives.

[Rhent]

No.

[Mizore]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

There is still a stunlock possible. WHen I am at 90 % heat,and fire a weapon, I get additional heat, that might bring me to 100 % heat. So I shutdown. And being under FLamer fire, I might never go below 90 %, and thus, I am effectively stunlocked.

Buff the flamers damage output. There is a lot less harm in that. (I also like the idea of having other mechs catch fire for a while and the weapon dealing some damage over time.)

You Sir have noooooo idea!

When you fire too many energy weapons when you're at 90% heat and shut down... then it's your fault!
With your logic you can hold yourself in a stunlock without any enemies... who is to blame then?

And honestly, you have never seriously played with flamers, because then you would have known, that it's impossible, to hold someone at 90%, because you can't see when an enemy Mech is at 90% and so you flame on and gain heat much faster while the enemy Mech doesn't get additional heat after 90%.
=> You can't heat'em up further, because your own heat is at the top, but then the enemy can fire his guns around 90% heat so that your flamers become worthless.

And once you've reached around 90% heat yourself, your flamers become very ineffective, because of the long time it takes, to raise the heat again on the enemy mech.

Edited by Mizore, 08 December 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Koniving]

Vids of some past flamer rigs. Note that some of these vids are old, and some as recent as two months ago.

There are many videos, feel free to save this page and come back to check out more!

The original flamers in closed beta. The ones that could kill an enemy by themselves.

Spoiler

Can flamers kill? How do Kon's flamers work?

Spoiler

CommandTroll

Spoiler

Hunch and Centurion flamer rigs. (Hunch is with me on the first one, I'm Centurion for both; the second version in the snow map is a lot better than the first).

Spoiler

Flamer Stalker

Spoiler

The first vid. During SRM could do up to 27 damage per missile bug.


Later, SRM nerfs.


Another attempt to run the flamer stalker. Disappointing enough to retire it temporarily.


A successful run finds the Flamer Stalker out in full force! Brawls MANY enemies at once and kills some!


More Flamer Stalker! Protecting limping stalkers! Brawling!


What NOT to do with a Flamer Stalker. Slight armor redesigns makes this possible again later on.


Enemies are introduced to the flamer dance captured on video for the first time.


Recent-ish! Flamer Stalker is unknowingly attacked by SRM ghost heat!

Flamer Awesome Brawlers!

Spoiler

The original design.


Split screen action!


Flamer Awesome 8Q escorting a brawling Awesome 9M.


Flamer Awesomes (Picture in Picture; fun things like dropping on enemies from high pillars and sandwiching!)

The Trollbuchet (2 flamers, 2 MGs, 2 SRMs)

Spoiler

Flamer Jager.

Spoiler

Has a rough start in this 2 versus 6 fight.


Being unused to the button combinations, I lose a fight I should have won.


During a match I talk about a pinpoint solution based on the third person targeting crosshair. I brawl, too. Very recent.


This video demonstrates how the Flamer Jager usually performs when I'm by myself and recording, but from an exterior perspective.

Flamer Spiders. Good music.

Spoiler

Oh, tip Mizore, check out the how Kon's flamers work. You won't be reaching 90% anymore.

[Mizore]

Koniving, on 08 December 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

Vids of some past flamer rigs. Note that some of these vids are old, and some as recent as two months ago.

There are many videos, feel free to save this page and come back to check out more!

Can flamers kill? How do Kon's flamers work?

Spoiler

...

Oh, tip Mizore, check out the how Kon's flamers work. You won't be reaching 90% anymore.

These vid is over half a year old... flamer mechanics have changed meanwhile.
And btw., all he does in the vid is damage, there was absolutely 0 heat transfered to the Commando when you did it like this!

[Koniving]

Mizore, on 08 December 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

These vid is over half a year old... flamer mechanics have changed meanwhile.
And btw., all he does in the vid is damage, there was absolutely 0 heat transfered to the Commando when you did it like this!

6 of them are within the last two months.
And yes, in some of the old vids the flamers are virtually useless. It may also be noticed in the example video, dated when flamers did 0.17 damage/sec. Without being in the Commando, how would you know that heat was or was not transferred? MWO locked out the ability to actually overheat mechs back in closed beta, limiting the potential to 60%.

It's been raised to 90%.

Only in the recent ones was heat transferred (Flamer Stalker escorted by LRM Centurion is a prime example, every target overheated at least once) though heat made through that method is half of what would be made in a normal method. The important thing is the lack of heat generated, period, on my end.

Flamer Spiders also have multiple instances of shutting down enemy mechs... but damage wise they were awful.

------

On a side note there was a mechanic in MWO's closed beta where 80% heat would begin causing damage to internal components. Heatsinks, Engine, Ammo, Weapons, all took very slow damage when at 80% heat or higher. If that were brought back, with the flamers' 90% heat possibility, then we could get some fair use out of the current flamers.

However, I still prefer the idea given here. This way you can pull the trigger once, shoot some flaming goop, and watch as the mech continues to burn and heat up for several seconds before you can 'goop' him again.

Edited by Koniving, 08 December 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Fuzzbox]

Flamers are made for killing infantry and provide a battlefield of choosing.

Without infantry, tanks, or destructible terrain flamers sucks. I actually like the PGI version where they are quite annoying as you don't see ****.

[Mizore]

Yeah ok, but all I can see is trolling with flamers by blinding the enemies... that's not the supposed usage of flamers, just a nice side effect!

I want to heat up enemy Mechs to the point, where they have a clear disadvantage, and that's nearly impossible, because of the stupid heat mechanik we have.

And when there's no infantery in the game, then you have to change the mechanics, so that they also work against Mechs... otherwise you could leave them out of the game, when there's no purpose for them.

Edited by Mizore, 08 December 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mizore, on 08 December 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

You Sir have noooooo idea!

When you fire too many energy weapons when you're at 90% heat and shut down... then it's your fault!
With your logic you can hold yourself in a stunlock without any enemies... who is to blame then?

And honestly, you have never seriously played with flamers, because then you would have known, that it's impossible, to hold someone at 90%, because you can't see when an enemy Mech is at 90% and so you flame on and gain heat much faster while the enemy Mech doesn't get additional heat after 90%.
=> You can't heat'em up further, because your own heat is at the top, but then the enemy can fire his guns around 90% heat so that your flamers become worthless.

And once you've reached around 90% heat yourself, your flamers become very ineffective, because of the long time it takes, to raise the heat again on the enemy mech.

We're talking about hypothetical changes to improve the Flamer. Such improvement might also include the possibility to keep firing the Flamer without overheating yourself and still getting your enemy to that 90 %. Also, you alone might not be able to maintain it, but a team of mechs might be able to do so.

What you don't seem to understand - when Flamers bring a target to 90 % heat and that target can no longer risk fiiring his weapon, that'sessentially a form of stun. Not the form of stun that makes you unable to move, but definitely one that stops you fighting. If you can maintain it - (or a team of mechs can maintain it), it's a stunlock.

[Mizore]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

We're talking about hypothetical changes to improve the Flamer. Such improvement might also include the possibility to keep firing the Flamer without overheating yourself and still getting your enemy to that 90 %. Also, you alone might not be able to maintain it, but a team of mechs might be able to do so.

So you'd need a whole team to prevent 1 single enemy Mech from firing?
Well done, the enemy team will say thanks for that.
Every Mech with flamers means a massive damage loss.

MustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

What you don't seem to understand - when Flamers bring a target to 90 % heat and that target can no longer risk fiiring his weapon, that'sessentially a form of stun. Not the form of stun that makes you unable to move, but definitely one that stops you fighting. If you can maintain it - (or a team of mechs can maintain it), it's a stunlock.

But what you don't seem to understand is, that you still can fire most weapons at 90% heat, run around (for example towards your teammates), lock targets and use consumables... that's at no means something similar to a stunlock!
And why shouldn't you even be able to do this with flamers?
If you couldn't even do this, then what's the purpose of taking flamers?

Not to mention the high risk of using flamers because of the 90m range, that flamers almost do any damage and that you have to maintain the fire constantly on the enemy Mech.

When you don't change the mechanic of flamers drastically, then they'll stay useless forever!

Edited by Mizore, 08 December 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mizore, on 08 December 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

So you'd need a whole team to prevent 1 single enemy Mech from firing?

Well done, the enemy team will say thanks for that.

I didn't mean a 12 man team, I mean a team as in "more than 1 mech". And if 2 mechs can cooperate to overheat one single mech, yes, that can be quite problematic. Not because two mechs can beat up one single mech - that's okay. But because they can make it in an extremely unfun and frustrating manner. THere is one thing in fighting against overwhelming odds and shooting back - and another in only trying to run away (especially if your mech can't run away because those Flamer guys are at least as fast as you are.)

And look at PGI's previous balancing efforts with a variety of mechanics. How likely do you find it that they are good at finding a mechanic for Flamers that keeps them useful at heating up enemy mechs that is not broken or abused? If Flamers become useful for their overheating ability, I guarantee you people will test its limits and are very likely to find broken tactics and builds.
Maybe you consider this stance defeatist (I automatically assume PGI won't get it right), but I think my experience both with MW:O specifically and other MMOs is that it's more likely to go wrong then to go well. So I will caution against it and suggest alternatives that are less likely to break the game.

Quote

Every Mech with flamers means a massive damage loss.

Currently. It doesn't have to be, as long as you're willing to minimize the crowd control / overheat aspect of Flamers. (And by minimizing I mean only: "Keep as is"

Quote

But what you don't seem to understand is, that you still can fire most weapons at 90% heat, run around (for example towards your teammates), lock targets and use consumables... that's at no means something similar to a stunlock!

Which is all of very little while I am being roasted and unable to shoot. The majority of my contribution on the battlefield will usually be the firepower I bring. Consumables and target locking are a minor aspect - not irrelevant, but when I am being hunted by 1-2 mechs, I worry less about throwing an UAV and more about killing someone.

Quote

And why shouldn't you even be able to do this with flamers?
If you couldn't even do this, then what's the purpose of taking flamers?

Read my previous posts. Make the Flamer a decent, short range damage weapon primarily, and keep the thermal effect secondary. It has a shorter range than the Medium Laser, so it should in turn deal more damage than it.

That's really all that you need to get a use out of the FLamer - it must be a more viable choice at extreme close range than MLs. THat doesn'T mean everyone will suddenly start running around with Flamers, but it will mean some will, and not because they are ignorant or do it for the SFX, but because it's competitive.


For example:
Currently, the Flamer generates 0.7 DPS and 1 HPS with a range of 90m and a max range of 90m. It also deals some level of heat. Raise the base DPS to 1.4 (more than the Medium Laser, twice what it is now).

In addition, the Flamer can cause a Plasma Burn. If a hit location has taken at least 2 damage from a Flamer in the last 2 seconds, it suffers a Plasma Burn The plasma fire deals an additional 2 damage over 3 seconds to that location and if the target is below 50 %, it also generates 0.2 heat per second.
Plasma Fires don't stack their damage or heat effect, they merely overlap their durations. Coolant Flush and exposure of a hit location to water remove plasma fires.

Flamers would become a viable short range weapon with a minor crowd control effect and some unusal mechanics and gameplay. Flamers would reward sustained and well aimed fire with the Plasma Burn effect (effectively increasing the effective damage of a single Flamer after a "ramp-up" time to about 2 DPS.), and also unlike most weapons, boating only has a limited benefit (as Plasma Brands don't stack, but using multiple Flamers give you Plasma Brands earlier.)


Bonus: If the designers figure out a way to make something like plasma fire work, we might even see some "Napalm Air Strike" consumables in the future, an idea sometimes mentioned on the forum.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 December 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[Roland]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

There is still a stunlock possible. WHen I am at 90 % heat,and fire a weapon, I get additional heat, that might bring me to 100 % heat. So I shutdown. And being under FLamer fire, I might never go below 90 %, and thus, I am effectively stunlocked.

No, you aren't.

You're not stunlocked at all, because you can still move.

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 08 December 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

No, you aren't.

You're not stunlocked at all, because you can still move.

There are no movement penalties for overheating, so there's much less of a case.

Right now, the Flamer is really the poor man's MG if you ask me, outside of the vision blockage.

[MustrumRidcully]

Roland, on 08 December 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

No, you aren't.

You're not stunlocked at all, because you can still move.

Consistently being unable to activate any offensive abilities counts as stun in my view. It could be worse - you could be immobile - but it's still a stun in my book*. What would you call it?


*) I don't actually have a book.

[Clit Beastwood]

new fun one - 6 flamer jenner on caustic, caused a stalker to shut down then i put an arty strike on him

didn't kill him but it was hilarious

Edited by Fierostetz, 09 December 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

Consistently being unable to activate any offensive abilities counts as stun in my view. It could be worse - you could be immobile - but it's still a stun in my book*. What would you call it?


*) I don't actually have a book.

I haven't tried it in a while, But I normally killed a flaming dummy with a Gauss.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 11 December 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

MustrumRidcully, on 08 December 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

Consistently being unable to activate any offensive abilities counts as stun in my view. It could be worse - you could be immobile - but it's still a stun in my book*. What would you call it?


*) I don't actually have a book.

It is definitely NOT a stun, since a mech that can move can actually get back behind cover or retreat to allies. The mechs with flamethrowers aren't nailing you to the ground out in the open to get rectally ravaged by the rest of the team at leisure.

If you want to create some false equivalency with mechanics from other games then it's really more like a mana burn- an ability that damages and temporarily limits an opponents options, without removing control of character.

In any case, as you phrase the dilemma, in what situation should you ever expect to go into a 2v1 (or "team of mechs") at close range and walk away alive, assuming players have equivalent skill levels???? Oh no, they're "stunlocking" you! Perhaps you'd prefer them to just shoot you to death instead? Maybe you'll feel less impotent, but you still wasted your mech by getting caught alone.

Making flamethrowers more than just a damage dealing weapon (and making things like NARC viable in general) is important to the health of the game. You look at the pvp communities of other arena-style games like WoW, LoL, DOTA2 etc.- all games that have a level of success that I hope PGI aspires to- all of these pvp communities flourish because the games have complexity and depth beyond just min-maxing for pure damage. "Stun locking" isn't some kind of problem in these games either -not at any serious competitive level- all of these games have ways of mitigating them and teams use stuns and stun removals as appropriate. In these games, if you walk into a 2v1 and get stunned to zero, that isn't stuns being op, that is you getting outmaneuvered and soundly defeated. As that related to MWO and flamers, maybe you should just stay with allies so you have someone to watch your back, and that way you won't have to worry about dying alone and pathetic.

In my opinion, they should really just be reworked and rethought as a better utility weapon rather than as <generic 1 ton short range DPS>. Making them have a much higher heat penalty to both the target and shooter without changing damage is one way, since that way they might actually cause a shutdown without making them spammable unless the mech was built around the concept.

I think the best solution would be to differentiate flamers from energy weapons as far as slots are concerned. Then you can balance flamers to be a utility that is actually effective, without having to worry about making them so effective that they're something that whole teams are fitting. That way you might consider bringing a flamethrower-equipped mech to deal with enemies that run hot (hardcounter, even), that player has an important role to fill, and by taking them and that utility you are sacrificing some amount of outgoing damage. Just like NARC or TAG, they should not be something for every match or team comp, but they should be good at something.

Taking flamethrowers should be an important decision at the team composition level. If the strategic decisions of the game never get past "which mech boats ACs and PPCs the best and how many of them can we fit on the team?" then actual competitive play is never going to be more than provincial.

This is not only adds depth to the game, but also keeps it true to the source material, since as I recall from reading the novels, flamethrowers being a mechwarriors greatest fear is a sort of truism in them even though it wasn't reflected on tabletop nor any of the videogames.

[East Indy]

Koniving, on 07 December 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

Think about this for a minute. Let's say this is a weapon with a cooldown of x number of seconds. Now spray liquid gunk on the enemy mech. Your weapon stops firing to 'recycle' like many other weapons such as lasers. The enemy is still on fire. Eventually the fire will go out. Meanwhile you can return and drop more gunk on them soon.

Damage-over-time might be a useful niche. Method of application might prevent (or at least contextualize) boating, too.

Example: A flamer applies 3 seconds of damage over time per 1 second of contact, up to 30 seconds of damage over time. Additional flamers shorten application time required for damage duration (e.g., 4 flamers cause 30 seconds of damage after 2.5 seconds of contact), while subsequent application simply extends damage duration up to the limit per the same formula (to use RPG terms, refreshing the 30-second DoT).

This way, a brawler only needs one flamer to deal near-maximum damage in a protracted short-range exchange, while light 'Mechs can effectively hit and run.

Edited by East Indy, 15 December 2013 - 07:06 AM.