362 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Mr 144, on 18 December 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

Ok...the goal is to improve the viability of lights and mediums compared to heavies and assaults (outliers aside) via agiltiy.

Turning Speed: Not viable to accomplish this goal. It simply isn't no matter how simple it sounds. Physics dictates that turning speed would have to be nerfed much farther than people realize to have any desired effect.

Turning Radius: Mass vs. Inertia, etc...make this a difficult balancing act to have any semblance of realism....plus, PGI codeing...as it's currently a fixed value, not a variable.

Torso Twist/Arm Articulation: Already nerfed to oblivion to the point having arms is actually a downside to a chassis...really? we want less than 10 degree arm'd assaults?

Torso Twist/ Arm Reflex Speed: Currently tied to engine size. I would guess any re-work of this metric would require coding on PGI's part...my god, we don't want that. Plus, given the ability to simply turn-track coupled with gimpy arms anyhow, this would do nothing in the grand scheme of things other than to reduce enjoyabilty of "good" assault/heavy piloting. (my opinion is they've already killed this as now, only positioning matters)

That leaves my original go-to metric....Acceleration/Decceleration:

#1: PGI already has the coding in place to tweak this via "quirks" for not only chassis', but variants within.
#2: It is an "agility" based, pilot appreciable skill.
#3: The ability to quickly deccelerate while in a blind spot, change attack angle, and re-accelerate to top speed makes any torso-twist, arm reflex, turn-radius, or turn-speed, completely irrelevant. THIS is what gives agility....the ability to outmaneuver the fatty's.

Notice this does not make any targeting "uncontrollabe" like buffing any other metric. This promotes skill. This rightly keeps circling stupid for lights.

Like I originally said...I don't disagree with the math, I disagree with the entire premise the math shows. You all are focusing on the wrong thing.

Quirks are all listed on Smurfy's.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ule_pilotskills

Click the Torso/Arm entries to see Graphs, with and without Skills, based on base Engine ratings.

Edited by Almond Brown, 18 December 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[Captain Stiffy]

Sandpit, on 18 December 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

Let's not forget the double rocket jump reverse back-axle with a 180 twist, ending in a cartwheel, while alpha striking

This is also good, but I think there's a few steps between my suggestions and this.

[DaZur]

Almond Brown, on 18 December 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

Or had a gasket left over... when there absolutely should not be.

Pffft... happens all the time.

Their "extra"... just like the couple nuts, bolts and shims when assembling Ikea furniture.

What's that?... "Yes" my car is supposed to leak coolant like that.

[Khobai]

Anyways here's what I consider the problem:

70 ton Orion
Max Speed: 86kph
Turning: 55.03 deg/s

50 ton Hunchback
Max Speed: 98kph
Turning: 63.06 deg/s

30 ton Spider
Max Speed: 169kph
Turning: 108.92 deg/s


Notice how the Hunchback doesnt fall exactly in between the Orion and Spider for max speed and turning? Mediums should be going ~120kph max speed with ~80 deg/s turning

[Doctor Proctor]

Death Mallet, on 17 December 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

If you nerf mech agility you need to make heavies and assaults a lot tougher to compensate for the amount of time they'll be getting blasted from the rear.

Maybe make heavies x3 armor. . . and assaults x4 armor or something.

Or, and here's the mind blowing part, you bring along more Medium mechs because their increased agility will allow them to protect the Heavies and Assaults that are loaded with firepower while the Lights scout and harass! It's like everyone has a job to do then!!!

[Joseph Mallan]

Death Mallet, on 17 December 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

If you nerf mech agility you need to make heavies and assaults a lot tougher to compensate for the amount of time they'll be getting blasted from the rear.

Maybe make heavies x3 armor. . . and assaults x4 armor or something.

As an Assault Pilot I don't need more armor, I need more team support when I am slogging along at 53 KpH.

[Khobai]

Quote

As an Assault Pilot I don't need more armor, I need more team support when I am slogging along at 53 KpH.

More armor wouldnt hurt. Especially on an Atlas. Since its got no real advantage over a Highlander.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

More armor wouldnt hurt. Especially on an Atlas. Since its got no real advantage over a Highlander.

Wouldn't hurt, but isn't needed. Mine has all the advantage i need over a Highlander. I'm Piloting it!

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 December 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

As an Assault Pilot I don't need more armor, I need more team support when I am slogging along at 53 KpH.

Sigh... We do so love trailing behind your Atlas with that copious hip swing it's famous for...

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 18 December 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Sigh... We do so love trailing behind your Atlas with that copious hip swing it's famous for...

My Mllk shake brings all the boys o the yard!

[Trauglodyte]

Khobai, on 18 December 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Anyways here's what I consider the problem:

70 ton Orion
Max Speed: 86kph
Turning: 55.03 deg/s

50 ton Hunchback
Max Speed: 98kph
Turning: 63.06 deg/s

30 ton Spider
Max Speed: 169kph
Turning: 108.92 deg/s


Notice how the Hunchback doesnt fall exactly in between the Orion and Spider for max speed and turning? Mediums should be going ~120kph max speed with ~80 deg/s turning

I agree with the point that you're trying to make. Though, it COULD be argued that the reason that it doesn't fall directly between the Orion and the Spider is because of its intended design role (ie, being a slow heavy weapons platform designed for heavy urban combat environments). Being nimble when you're supposed to be slipping in between buildings isn't really needed. It is why it bothered me so much when people moaned about how slow the Hunchy was at release. It isn't supposed to be as fast as the other 50 tonners because speed is an actual detraction from agility (see what Mr 144, Da Zur, and I were talking about earlier) when you're trying to slalom between sky scrapers.

Also, and this is my personal opinion, PGI f'ed up in a major way when they decided that it was a great idea to implement both a simple formula for deriving top speeds and doing odd things with max engine ratings within chassis. On the first part, it directly takes away from those mechs that were designed around blazing speed (ie Locust, Spider, and Cicadas). Because of that blunder, there is NO distinction between the Jenner and the Cicada other than the Jenner is a mega power due to its broken JJs. They should have set the TT value as the cap and then allowed a diminishing return on engines larger based on the formula used. On the last part, can someone please explain to me how it is that they feel like it is completely acceptable for me to rip out and rebuild any mech that I want and yet I am somehow incapable of putting the max engine of the "fast" Cent in the other Cents when it is built on the same frame? I mean, I'm redoing the entire design of the mech so I can make any adjustments made on thew newer model. Silly PGI.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 18 December 2013 - 12:51 PM.

[Mr 144]

Almond Brown, on 18 December 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Quirks are all listed on Smurfy's.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ule_pilotskills

Click the Torso/Arm entries to see Graphs, with and without Skills, based on base Engine ratings.

Considering my earlier post got my purrty pics right from there....what's your point?

[LastPaladin]

Hoaggie, on 07 December 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

I don’t know what’s more pathetic, that somebody actually thinks this, or that there are players out there that like this. If an assault mech puts on a engine large enough to keep up with mediums it’s going to have about the same armament as a medium. There are major drawback do doing that. If I see an atlas flying along at 50kph with full weapons, I realize that it probably has an XL engine, or it has massively shaved its armor on the legs. If you have a fast assault, then it’s not going to have a high damage output.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...834910da167bc74

Better hope you don't run into this Atlas, with the assumptions you are making.

[Captain Stiffy]

I thought we were all in agreement on making mechs fly for up to 6 minutes and letting them jet-strafe

[Doctor Proctor]

LastPaladin, on 18 December 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...834910da167bc74

Better hope you don't run into this Atlas, with the assumptions you are making.

Yeah, I see that build a lot...or something close to it. It's basically 3/4 of Hunchback 4G duct taped to 3/4 of Cent A, and it's got ECM. Definitely just an Assault running a Medium mech loadout though...

[Hoaggie]

LastPaladin, on 18 December 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...834910da167bc74

Better hope you don't run into this Atlas, with the assumptions you are making.

That's cute. I really love running into those when I'm driving this.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...564136d0f7822bb

[Doctor Proctor]

Hoaggie, on 18 December 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

That's cute. I really love running into those when I'm driving this.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...564136d0f7822bb

LOL, just noticed the firepower numbers on these two mechs. On the DDC with STD 350 we have 66, while on the D with the STD 300 we have 54. So not only does the DDC move faster, but it sacrifices very little firepower to do so and has a larger, more concentrated alpha due to the choice of the AC/20 over LBX and the ASRMs over the SRMs. While the D might work well on cleanup duty against this DDC, saying it's like fighting a Medium is just ludicrous.

[LastPaladin]

Doctor Proctor, on 18 December 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

Yeah, I see that build a lot...or something close to it. It's basically 3/4 of Hunchback 4G duct taped to 3/4 of Cent A, and it's got ECM. Definitely just an Assault running a Medium mech loadout though...

Yeah, sure. Show me a medium with a 66 point alpha and 39% heat efficiency. Even by your own math 75% of one medium + 75% of another = 150% of a medium.

Doctor Proctor, on 18 December 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

LOL, just noticed the firepower numbers on these two mechs. On the DDC with STD 350 we have 66, while on the D with the STD 300 we have 54. So not only does the DDC move faster, but it sacrifices very little firepower to do so and has a larger, more concentrated alpha due to the choice of the AC/20 over LBX and the ASRMs over the SRMs. While the D might work well on cleanup duty against this DDC, saying it's like fighting a Medium is just ludicrous.

Also, notice he is carrying 4 tons of uncased torso ammo, which sort of negates the benefits of running a standard engine while trying to crit seek other mechs xD

[anonymous161]

Hoaggie, on 07 December 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

I don’t know what’s more pathetic, that somebody actually thinks this, or that there are players out there that like this. If an assault mech puts on a engine large enough to keep up with mediums it’s going to have about the same armament as a medium. There are major drawback do doing that.

If I see an atlas flying along at 50kph with full weapons, I realize that it probably has an XL engine, or it has massively shaved its armor on the legs. If you have a fast assault, then it’s not going to have a high damage output. Additionally, because of the heat balance, there is no reason for an assault to carry many weapons if they are just going to overheat at an accelerated rate.

What you are seeing as a speed issue, is the lack of collisions. Light mechs are filling the rolls mediums should be because they just set their throttle to max and run, there is no drawback for them running directly into an enemy.

*This*

A very valid point. I've seen awesome's run at 80 kph I think it's called, but it had very little armor. Decent weaponry though but got pretty hot.

They need to add more gameplay like collisions or maybe even environmental damage like lets say rock chunks coming off if you shoot at a mountain side or mound of rock over an enemy mech perhaps some of the rocks nad dislodge and do damage or cause the mech to stall from having stuff blocking their path.

There are tons of things that could be put in this game to make it more interesting and fun but these devs are more interested in demanding tons of money on mechs that wont be balanced or fun till a few years from now, and thats even if it's still online.

[Artgathan]

Hoaggie, on 18 December 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

That's cute. I really love running into those when I'm driving this.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...564136d0f7822bb

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0dafcf23e0abbae

Harder, better, faster, stronger.