362 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Khobai, on 19 December 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

Probably. But ive got nothing better to do at work. Gotta be here anyway

The Engine ranges in the 40t - 55t bracket seem skewed.

Cicada - 340 (All)
Blackjack - 235 (1- special @295)
Centurion - 275 (1- special @300) (1- special @390 )
Hunchback - 275 (All)
Trebuchet - 325 (1- special @390)
Griffin - 360 (All)
Kintaro - 360 (1- special @290 )
Shadowhawk - 360 (All)
Wolverine - 360 (1- special @375)

Why do the newer Mediums all have engine ratings in the +85 gained after the HB set was nerfed to hell and back? If it is supposed to be a "Role" based thing, then those Roles had best start rolling out soon because the longer the Mediums with gimped Engine maximum stay that way, the less chance they will ever be revived, despite other possible "balance" measures.

Is it a way to promote XL Engine use?

Edited by Almond Brown, 20 December 2013 - 11:02 AM.

[Doctor Proctor]

Almond Brown, on 20 December 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

The Engine ranges in the 40t - 55t bracket seem skewed.

Cicada - 340 (All)
Blackjack - 235 (1- special @295)
Centurion - 275 (1- special @300) (1- special @390 )
Hunchback - 275 (All)
Trebuchet - 325 (1- special @390)
Griffin - 360 (All)
Kintaro - 360 (1- special @290 )
Shadowhawk - 360 (All)
Wolverine - 360 (1- special @375)

Why do the newer Mediums all have engine ratings in the +85 gained after the HB set was nerfed to hell and back? If it is supposed to be a "Role" based thing, then those Roles had best start rolling out soon because the longer the Mediums with gimped Engine maximum stay that way, the less chance they will ever be revived, despite other possible "balance" measures.

Is it a way to promote XL Engine use?

Bigger engines aren't the only solution though. Most of the Hunchies can't equip XL engines for fear of dying constantly from getting that right torso shot off. Even if they could, that same giant hunch houses most of their weapons and therefore an XL would make several loadouts (the AC/20 4G, for example) impossible to do due to the lost crit spaces.

Purely larger engine sizes don't help much either since Mediums already devote so much of their total weight to engine weight as it is; which is why you never really see any running a STD300, for example.

[Phromethius]

Hopefully when they continue the Mech passes that hitboxes will be tuned and greater survivability is the result. Given the recent announcements once UI2 is rolled out then they can "unclog" and get to work with all the other minutae. But something has to happen soon to bring vitality to the medium class.

There is an upsurge in medium activity with the Wolverine and Griffin but that will pass once the "shiny newness" wears off. Still holding out hope though.

[Khobai]

Quote

Bigger engines aren't the only solution though. Most of the Hunchies can't equip XL engines for fear of dying constantly from getting that right torso shot off. Even if they could, that same giant hunch houses most of their weapons and therefore an XL would make several loadouts (the AC/20 4G, for example) impossible to do due to the lost crit spaces.

Purely larger engine sizes don't help much either since Mediums already devote so much of their total weight to engine weight as it is; which is why you never really see any running a STD300, for example.

Bigger max engines dont help mediums. The problem with bigger max engines is you have to trade tonnage to get more speed. Mediums need a buff, and having to trade tonnage for more speed isnt a buff, its a tradeoff.

The best and easiest way to fix mediums is simply to give each weight class their own unique skill tree. That way you can balance each weight class independently of the other weight classes simply by buffing or nerfing the various skills.

[Trauglodyte]

Plus, the one thing with Mediums is a lot of them have odd mixtures of weapons with most having a lot of missile mounts. The problem with that is that missiles are really bad unless you're spamming Streaks. So, your role is either max engine with Streaks and Md Lasers or you drop down your engine and up your energy and still get stuck with crappy missiles. The only role that you have with a Medium Mech is that of the Light Hunter or someone that has to pilot like a ninja so that you can try and hope that your SRM wracks hit, register, and become scary.

[soft target]

I may be a fool but personaly I think there is nothing wrong with mediums.

True I am still learning the game and done my fair share of stupid things so far but in my experience, a medium is not suposed to circle a heavier mech.

Yes the difference in mobility is not soooo big, but it was never meant to be, or did any of you circle assaults in the TT?


What is important is that the mobility advantage is existent, a well equiped Medium will be faster and "jumpier" then a heavy and as far as I see it you are supposed to use that to controll the game, not running in headless circles.

As for me that works pretty well ( as long as I use my brain at least, which isn't allways the case)

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes the difference in mobility is not soooo big, but it was never meant to be, or did any of you circle assaults in the TT?

This isnt TT. Lights and Mediums can be relatively slow and still be competitive in TT. But in MWO a slow light is DEAD. And a slow medium begs the question of why not just play a fast heavy?

[DaZur]

Okay... let's truly nail down the issues at hand.

1.) Closure speeds - I argue our mechs are moving faster than our pedometers indicate. This results in the erroneous ability of mechs to cross-over their class roles, mitigating the value of the mechs that are supposed to fulfill them. (I.e... Assaults moving fast enough to negate the value of Heavies and likewise Heavies to Mediums). ** This is further exacerbated by the speed-tweak.

2.) Beige maneuverability - Again, because of how PGI links a mechs turn radius to it's axial rotation speed, all mechs exhibit mobility traits that are too similar. This results in class-level maneuverability profiles that are too similar resulting in the ability of mech classes to equal and in some cases outperform their lower-class equivalents. This too allows class cross-overs that should not exist and their allowance mitigates the value of lower classes. ** Mech & class quirks and individual limb and torso ROMs do partially offset this but not enough IMHO.

In short... IMHO, one of the greatest tools for bringing clarity to classes and and their implied roles is being ignored. The fact that across the board, the classes and their neighboring class are muddied by their over-generalization and allowances to "cross-over" and it is that fact that has our class-balance and roles are so screwed up.

Edited by DaZur, 20 December 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Which is what medium (and light) pilots want, but will never get 'cos PGI makes too much money selling assaults. That was probably the most damming mistake of the many they made. If all mechs are viable, why charge more for bigger mechs? if only they had just charged the same price for all mechs.

[Corvus Antaka]

stjobe, on 10 December 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

But that's what we're saying, Joe - with the current turning speeds, torso twist ranges/speeds, and arm twist range/speed it is not mathematically possible for a light to stay on your six. Any assault has enough turning speed, torso twist speed, and/or arm reach/speed to keep up with any 'mech in the game, at least for as long as it takes to go to full torso twist - and then it's a very short window where you twist fully the other way and you're back to keeping that 171.1 kph light under your reticule.

Lights can stay on a mechs 6 no problem.

it's just tricky when your fighting more than 1 at once.

we cant have it so the assault has no recourse and simply "Gives up" if it was that easy for a light to stay on the 6.

lights have always been 1 shottable in mechwarrior. with double armour here it is harder. If PGI gave us mech3 style ballistics we might see that ease up. For me personally either option is workable, but really it's the simple fact that right now there is way way to much tonnage on the field. I dropped with a 3 man light lance today 1 spdr, 2 locusts, and we only saw 1 light on the enemy team in 4 matches.

Of conquest.

[soft target]

@ Nik van Rhijn:

agreed.

Which is where the slow medium comes in.

it is a cheap stopgap for a heavy a more fragile mech that brings a decend punch.
played with care, and equiped for fitting fighting style it should be ok.

As long as the pilot can avoid heavy counterfire it will do it's job more than well.
offcourse singled of from the team this mech will be easy prey.

But as allways in these games, that is part of the decision you make when you chose your ride.

[Tombstoner]

Khobai, on 20 December 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

This isnt TT. Lights and Mediums can be relatively slow and still be competitive in TT. But in MWO a slow light is DEAD. And a slow medium begs the question of why not just play a fast heavy?

This is why all mecha need damage coefficients for all hit locations linked to stock engine size. the Panther mech is basically DOA - http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Panther it's just bout at 1/2 the speed its need to survive and ~50% faster then my atlas.
that mech has issue even if you customize

Small and slow shouldn't be a death sentence in this game but it is....

[Noesis]

Double armour being relative that point doesn't stand much due to the more improved heavy and assault armour as a result. It actually provides more longevity for those Mechs.

If an assault Mech is caught in the open by lights then I'm all for it being taken down by the Wolfpack. Team play and support Mechs with other classes like mediums more attuned to dealing with lights should be the light killers. An assault Mech should not be a single go to choice that can handle every situation so that other roles have a purpose.

Also if working in a lance or even just one other Mech you can support each other with assisting to engage the others lights to help with that kind of situation in defending against them.

Atm lights are easily dealt with imho where teamwork is applied. Or more sensibly with Light or Medium mechs more attuned to simply dealing with them.

Alternatively if the Meta was not all Sniper warrior at distance weapons and Mechs fitted weapons more capable and sensible in dealing with lights then maybe this would also help.

However, I would like to see more interplay encouraged in the role warfare and not make the Assault platform simply a Mech for all seasons. This would also help to orientate the choices and tactics of utilising an Assault Mech more as the traditional pivotal Mech that others support and "orbit" when used in key positions for defense or attack.

Hopefully this kind of intent will help to encourage tactics to employ Assault use more carefully but also make the heavy more attractive to use so that the Assault isn't simply the preferred choice Mech for anything other than base capping and spotting perhaps.

[Khobai]

Quote

Double armour being relative that point doesn't stand much due to the more improved heavy and assault armour as a result. It actually provides more longevity for those Mechs.

Youre forgetting about scaling though. Assaults were massively scaled up in size. In TT all mechs were treated as being the same size and a light was no harder to hit than an assault. So while assaults may have benefitted more from the doubling of armor than lights, they were also penalized at least as much by the rescaling. It's very easy to pinpoint Atlases and as a result theyre extremely vulnerable to ballistics and ppcs.

Scaling is also a major reason why mediums struggle. Because many mediums are the size of heavies or even assaults but have half the armor. Unfortunately these scaling issues have zero chance of ever being addressed. So im still convinced the best way to balance all four weight classes is by giving them each their own unique skill tree.

Edited by Khobai, 20 December 2013 - 03:45 PM.

[Noesis]

Khobai, on 20 December 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Youre forgetting about scaling though. Assaults were massively scaled up in size. In TT all mechs were treated as being the same size and a light was no harder to hit than an assault. So while assaults may have benefitted more from the doubling of armor than lights, they were also penalized at least as much by the scaling difference. Scaling is also a major reason why mediums struggle. Because many mediums are the size of heavies or even assaults but have half the armor.

I totally agree Mediums are massively out of proportion of the scale of things, but them I'm also happy for PGI to review what should be appropriate scaling on an equivalent relative basis. Otherwise the idea of massive mediums with less relative armour in comparison to an Assault is an even bigger joke.

[stjobe]

Almond Brown, on 20 December 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

The Engine ranges in the 40t - 55t bracket seem skewed.

Cicada - 340 (All)
Blackjack - 235 (1- special @295)
Centurion - 275 (1- special @300) (1- special @390 )
Hunchback - 275 (All)
Trebuchet - 325 (1- special @390)
Griffin - 360 (All)
Kintaro - 360 (1- special @290 )
Shadowhawk - 360 (All)
Wolverine - 360 (1- special @375)

Why do the newer Mediums all have engine ratings in the +85 gained after the HB set was nerfed to hell and back?
[...]
Is it a way to promote XL Engine use?

It's just that they first introduced slow mediums, and later fast mediums. Look at the stock speeds in order of release:

Hunchback...64.8 kph
Centurion...64.8 kph
Cicada.......129 kph
Trebuchet...86.4 kph
Blackjack...64.8 kph
Kintaro.....86.4 kph
Shadow Hawk.86.4 kph
Griffin.....86.4 kph
Wolverine...86.4 kph

All the early ones are slow mediums and all the later ones are fast mediums.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's just that they first introduced slow mediums, and later fast mediums. Look at the stock speeds in order of release:

Except even 90kph is way too slow for a medium.

Fast heavies go 70-80kph. With 30% more firepower and armor.

Mediums should be going 120kph at least, so they fall halfway between lights and heavies for speed.

[Fuzzbox]

Problem is everything is too fast: running, tracking, everything.

As you say we have heavies and assaults running at 80 kph, for me this just indicates that the tracking is way too quick.
If the tracking (torso and arms) speeds Are reduced the speed can also be reduced. This could if done carefully get us back to slower speeds which would make sense since this is battletech and not gundam.

The thing is, while many would like this, I feel PGI have more important things to tend to atm. We really need CW to make this game work in the long run. Right now the "old" mediums might be in a bad spot, but let's hope they won't stay there, but for now there are in my view much more important things to be done. This game still feels like 'Mechs, unless I run my Jenner, so we are still ok on that department (big improvements can still be made)

Edited by Ingrid, 22 December 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[stjobe]

Khobai, on 22 December 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Except even 90kph is way too slow for a medium.

Fast heavies go 70-80kph. With 30% more firepower and armor.

Mediums should be going 120kph at least, so they fall halfway between lights and heavies for speed.

I'd say it's the heavies that needs slowing down, not the mediums that need speeding up. Most heavies in BT were 4/6 movement, with a few 5/8 - none that I can think of off the top of my head were faster than 5/8.

Ingrid, on 22 December 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Problem is everything is too fast: running, tracking, everything.

Bingo.

Our customization means we get to design new 'mechs that have nothing in common with BT 'mechs aside from the fact that they look like them. Add pilot skills that exacerbate this discrepancy and you have our current situation where heavy 'mechs routinely break 80 kph, and some even break 100.

Small wonder then that mediums are left in a bad place; heavies have taken their place, and their role.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 20 December 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

This isnt TT. Lights and Mediums can be relatively slow and still be competitive in TT. But in MWO a slow light is DEAD. And a slow medium begs the question of why not just play a fast heavy?

Not really. Even on TT speed was the Light's best friend. A Panther v an Atlas was pretty much a known outcome. Outside of luck.