45 replies to this topic

[OneEyed Jack]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 December 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I don't think skill means what most players think it does.

QFT.

Or they only want to apply it to their own particular skill set.

[Calamus]

LoganMkv, on 09 December 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Team pvp can be balanced for each participant only in two cases:
1. Assist is hard (shooters, slashers, tank/plane sims)
2. There are healers present which counter assist (mmorpgs)

Neither case is true for BT/MWO — MWO can only be balanced with cost/availability on team level only like strategy/tactic games.
So all effort that was put to balancing unbalancable game (anything from x2 armor to ghost heat) is plain wasted.

However we all know now that devs are not capable of implementing anything better than a team match, so I suggest following:

Make hit registration chance-based _after_ the hit was confirmed as physically registred - that can represent mechs dodging/limb blocking. So for example if you shoot someone's CT, target still has 40% chance to evade it and 30% chance to block it with a closest limb.
or
Change the game from a mech sim to a "mech sim" sim and add healers. It's stupid, but the game as it is is not even neraly realistic anyway.

Do not listen to this guy. Those are just about the worst suggestions I've ever heard.

[Damia Savon]

stjobe, on 09 December 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

Burst-fire ballistics would go a long way towards lessening the direct-damage impact, as would a beam-duration PPC.

Autocannon are supposed to be burst fire. The fluff mechanic in the TT game clearly states that each shot is a burst of shells. Right now they are treated like a tank cannon shell which is where the problem comes in. A burst of shells that does half direct damage the the rest some sort of distributed or splash damage. Then you solve a problem with autocannon.

PPCs are fine but need a speed boost. There is ZERO reason how a blast of particles travels more slowly than autocannon shells. They should be almost as fast as lasers.

ERPPCs generate an insane amount of heat. If double heat sinks worked as intended then the heat would be fine but they do not.

Another balance for the insane ballistic builds is reducing ammo by 1/3. In the TT and fluff, one of the limits of autocannon weapons is the risk of running out of ammo. LRM/SRM heavy builds have to worry running out of ammo all the time. If my PUG team is smart and targets, then I always run out of ammo in a match. Then I jump in and brawl with my 2-3 medium lasers. (Not I am not an LRM Catapult afraid to mix it up when I have no LRM ammo)

As others have pointed out,the space and weight of ballistic weapons is not a major issue because you can still mount plenty of them. The ammo is a single slot and you can easily carry enough to last a match. If you run out, either your aim stinks or the enemy lets you pound on them without a problem. Ammo explosions are rare and can be mitigated with Case. Less ammo means ballistic builds are forced to use back up energy weapons or machine guns.

The "ammo" of energy weapons are heat sinks to suck up and dispell all the heat the weapons generate. Double heat sinks take up a ton like ballistic ammo, but they take up three crit slots. The amount of slots really limits where you can put them. It is impossible to put them in the legs, where you can stick ballistic ammo if you want.

So there are ways to balance autocannon compared to energy/missile builds. Heck just having double heat sinks work as true double heat sinks would solve most of the balance issues.

[Joseph Mallan]

Damia Savon, on 09 December 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Another balance for the insane ballistic builds is reducing ammo by 1/3. In the TT and fluff, one of the limits of autocannon weapons is the risk of running out of ammo. LRM/SRM heavy builds have to worry running out of ammo all the time. If my PUG team is smart and targets, then I always run out of ammo in a match. Then I jump in and brawl with my 2-3 medium lasers. (Not I am not an LRM Catapult afraid to mix it up when I have no LRM ammo)

As built (Canon) Weapons would run out of ammo quickly in MWO. As it stood TT Builds were loaded for one minute of continuous fire. that worked on TT, doesn't work in a real time game though.

[OneEyed Jack]

Damia Savon, on 09 December 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Autocannon are supposed to be burst fire. The fluff mechanic in the TT game clearly states that each shot is a burst of shells.

Really? That's news to me, since I've always seen fluff that mentioned there were multiple versions of ACs that operated depending on the manufacturer, the caliber and RoF varying from gun to gun and classifications (AC2/5/20/20) simply being different guns grouped together by overall damage potential.

But I've only been playing and reading books since the mid-late 80s, so what do I know?

[Onlystolen]

This is a First person, team tactical shooter, Not world of warcraft, Mechs can dodge and block shots by {getting out of the way - turning their torso - using an atlas for extra armor - using terrain - HSR} So these features you speak of are already in the game.

Mech healers lol,

LOL

LOL

"hi, onstar? i just got my arm and 2 large lasers blasted off by a Dual Gauss jagermech and i was wondering if you could come give me assistance"

long story short, no. that will never happen. if it does Captain-General fobid it, damned vtols dropping in health packs and ammo crates.

You bring what you have, you blast those who appose you, lick your wounds and you carry on.

[draiocht]

LoganMkv, on 09 December 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Make hit registration chance-based _after_ the hit was confirmed as physically registred - that can represent mechs dodging/limb blocking. So for example if you shoot someone's CT, target still has 40% chance to evade it and 30% chance to block it with a closest limb.

Auto-dodge tends to be frustrating. But what you're equivalently saying is that mechs should have 40% more armor.

On tangent, a button to put a mech's arms into a shield stance would be pretty nifty -- no percent chances, just moving the arms up in front to defend.

Alistair Winter, on 09 December 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

I'd like to see a Trebuchet Warlock, with some kind of daemon pet.

I'd love it if we can carry around a squad of battle armor pets!

[Stygian Steel]

we could have a fire truck mech's with a hose that sprays coolant and nano tech thingys that could repair over time they could act like flamers do now but it'll restore armor or lower heat! think about it man! mechwarriors are only mech'ing you half the time the other time their, their leading! with guns!!!
( sry to spill some tenacious D on to this page)

[RagingOyster]

LoganMkv, on 09 December 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Team pvp can be balanced for each participant only in two cases:
1. Assist is hard (shooters, slashers, tank/plane sims)
2. There are healers present which counter assist (mmorpgs)

Neither case is true for BT/MWO — MWO can only be balanced with cost/availability on team level only like strategy/tactic games.
So all effort that was put to balancing unbalancable game (anything from x2 armor to ghost heat) is plain wasted.

However we all know now that devs are not capable of implementing anything better than a team match, so I suggest following:

Make hit registration chance-based _after_ the hit was confirmed as physically registred - that can represent mechs dodging/limb blocking. So for example if you shoot someone's CT, target still has 40% chance to evade it and 30% chance to block it with a closest limb.
or
Change the game from a mech sim to a "mech sim" sim and add healers. It's stupid, but the game as it is is not even neraly realistic anyway.

Literally the dumbest thing I've read in a while. We do not need to "simulate" limb-blocking, you can just turn your torso and actually limb-block

[Stygian Steel]

RagingOyster, on 09 December 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Literally the dumbest thing I've read in a while. We do not need to "simulate" limb-blocking, you can just turn your torso and actually limb-block

but thats too hard, the game should do it for him

[FerretGR]

Worst ideas ever.

draiocht, on 09 December 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

On tangent, a button to put a mech's arms into a shield stance would be pretty nifty -- no percent chances, just moving the arms up in front to defend.

This one, not so bad. I should be able to control my arms and to bring them up to block my torso. They're arms, they're not stationary guns. Well thought out, draiocht!

Edited by FerretGR, 09 December 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Alistair Winter, on 09 December 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

Can we have epic flying mounts too?

We need some DOT weapons in this game. I'd like to see a Trebuchet Warlock, with some kind of daemon pet.

Or a Battlemaster Paladin!

[stjobe]

OneEyed Jack, on 09 December 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Really? That's news to me, since I've always seen fluff that mentioned there were multiple versions of ACs that operated depending on the manufacturer, the caliber and RoF varying from gun to gun and classifications (AC2/5/20/20) simply being different guns grouped together by overall damage potential.

But I've only been playing and reading books since the mid-late 80s, so what do I know?

Apparently not as much as you'd like to think. Head on over to http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon and give it a read. Pay attention to things like

• An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts.
  
• It is, basically, a giant "machine gun"
  
• The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage
  
• With the fluffed number of shells and caliber being specified, no Autocannon has been specified to be one shell fired for each "round" or burst of fire.

There's no arguing against it, lore-wise ACs are burst-fire weapons.

Edited by stjobe, 09 December 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[Todd Bridges]

Thorn Hallis, on 09 December 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

Actually, I don't. I have zero clue what he's talkin' about.

Maybe I could help.

[OneEyed Jack]

stjobe, on 09 December 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Apparently not as much as you'd like to think. Head on over to http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon and give it a read.

Well, you got me there, what with quoting the official source material and all.

[stjobe]

OneEyed Jack, on 09 December 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Well, you got me there, what with quoting the official source material and all.

There's a long list of source book references on that page if you doubt the veracity of it. Basically the texts are taken verbatim from TacOps, TechManual, the different TROs and so on.

[3rdworld]

I want mech Large Shields

for an Atlas

5 tons, 1 crit.

240 armor, 80 internal

For a Highlander

4.5 tons, 1 crit

216 armor, 72 internal.

My baby arm now has a use.....other than shielding. wait...

[Murphy7]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 December 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Or a Battlemaster Paladin!

Pheonix Hawk LAM = Druid ?

Ah that would be fun, if only to see if Harmony Gold sued fast enough to cause whiplash.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 December 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

So did I on the rifle range, I didn't always hit what I was pointing at, otherwise there would not be a indicator of where my last shot went cause I'd be shooting it off the target every round. Most players of games probably haven't seen real military grade weapon's fire and are thinking out of context. Imagine if you will a Battleship's broadside firing all its guns and hitting a quarter or a Dessert plate!

No need to hit the Dessert plate with those 16in. guns. Just obliterate the house the plate is in. Way easier...

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 09 December 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

No need to hit the Dessert plate with those 16in. guns. Just obliterate the house the plate is in. Way easier...

Sorta my point sir!