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Dealing With Those Ac40 Mechs...


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#41 xengk

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 07:16 PM

Teamwork.
Spotting + LRM can kill a Boomjag dead real quick.

When caught alone with one in a dark alley, either run away or go for the side torso(XL Engine) or leg(Ammo).

#42 Zordicron

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 07:21 PM

I recently purchased the Jager S and had a thread about how rediculous the AC40 jager really is.

So it is good to have a mini guide with pointers, because I know first hand, the thing is just a big n00b tube in this game. So most of the time, the pointers hold and will work because a n00b is running it.

Not every loadout for the thing is the same: some like 2 ML backup weapons, some like to run a std, some shave armor to up the engine(std again usually). those people do it wrong, and the tactics in OP will indeed neuter them as a threat in short order.

I recently mastered my cheese jager S. so I am going to play both sides of this guide, and offer tips to those running the loadout as well as how to defeat it. For posterity, my K/D was 3.09 and W/L was 1.05. 100% pug runs, and the majortiy of several dozen matches I ran to master it set to "any" mode. So it works in all 3 modes.

Loadout:

XL300. 81kph or so after tweak. makes it turn fast. Accelerate fast. makes it able to hill hump with actual success(not advised unless match demands it) Also allows it to position better(most important ever for this mech)
Endo steel
2x AC20(duh)
Max armor except shave some off the head, a little on each arm, and a little on the legs. Front load armor:
CT put roughly 16 points to the rear, to taste if you feel you get shot in the back to much
ST put almost all to the front, like maybe 7 points to the rear, or 6 even(I had 6)
Adjust armor down on head, slightly on arms, and slightly on legs until you have tonnage for:

11 DHS
7 or 8 tons ammo, i forget without loading it up to look now.

Important playstyle notes:
Do not be in front. Follow the team, especially somthing bigger like an atlas or a victor. Victors were my fav, most did in the 70kph range anyway, and were solid choices to draw enemy fire when they started jumping. Also, they needed the most help when a ML brawler came in because they tend to have PPc loaded. I liked the lower-mid rangeassault mechs because they tended to be more active in positioning then an atlas did. but once the fight got going, Atlas was fine too. but really anything similar to that works, you just dont want to be the one they see first. NINJA.
Stay in cover. Only cross an open area with your team, and try not to be in front unless bolting for cover. Best method: Wait, wait for slower teammates to get partly across and then bolt. This not only lets your team "feel it out" but also ensures you dont get there first(more on thisin a minute)

it might seem so far that as a AC40 pilot, you let your team take the beating and act like a selfish ******. Sort of correct. See the thing is, Jagers will get focused by the enemy. They have earned a reputation, so people watch for them. So while it seems D-bag to let your team take the hits, in the end your deliverance of utter annihilation unto the heathen enemy will repay them. It is because of this rep it becomes truly paramount to stay off the radar. It is much like a successful atlas match. You want to be "Surprise! Atlas." Because once exposed, you are focused down at any opportunity.

Ties in: dont give the opportunity. Yes, bullrushing in will net you a kill almost every time anyway, but that isnt how your team will win. you need to stay off the radar, which means behind cover al lthe time, out of LOS. Yo want a pal to be around to help shoo off a light scout or spotter. Repay him by blowing a hole straight through an enemy mech attacking him. NINJA. Wait for the fight to start, dont be afraid to blow that enemy arm off his mech. Learn to wait for the enemy to turn, or sometimes even move past you for a nice back shot. Some maps this is super easy, like river city, tourmaline, forest colony, sometimes frozen city depending on what your team does. Some maps are harder, like crimson straight and caustic, but stick to the rules: always cover, only move with the team. Alpine in particular can be a challenge, but not impossible at all. there are lots of ridges, just be smart about enemy position and your route, comm to your team about having limited range, stick with your other brawl pals like usual.

Never hill hump, unless your team is in trouble and there is immediate need of your brand of smash. it is better to see the engagement, and then flank to the enemy on the edge of the enemy blob, fire a round or two and fade back towards your own group. this does not mean rambo off alone. you should always be fire support, this is not CoD and you are not a light mech. but you dont have to stand in a row on the front line either.

Defensive piloting: yes, XL means ST is vulnerable. You will have to learn how to judge when a foe will fire, when he is targetting you, etc. Torso twist. people say it doesnt work, because they do it wrong. When you look away, look 90 degrees, or slightly less, but ALSO look down at a 45 degree or so, possibly slightly less or more depending on elevation of enemy. What this does is stick AC20 barrels in front of the beergut side torsos partly, and spreads dmg(especially SRM and lasers, LBX) onto arm. About 1/3 matches where I actually died, I lost an arm before my ST. On 3 matches i recall losing both arms. it is not fool proof, but it makes a difference, just turning away a little does not shield you.

Do not overheat, unless it is a kill shot, or you have no escape from overwhelming enemy numbers. Sometimes, it is worth being made a sitting duck for that 40 points of smash into someones torso. A lot of times, you should have faded back before it got to this point.

basically, if you play this thing like a slow fireing heavily armed medium support mech you will succeed half way well, if you are very aware and are decent at spreading dmg you will be supreme victor of the field.

Now then to it's demise:

Lights. Mostly because AC20 are hard to hit when they are close up at 150KPH, but also becauseif you run into someone runing one of these like me with 300-400 PING, it becomes REALLY hard to predict where to fire AC rounds to hit a light that hasnt made a big blunder. yes, thats correct, this thing is so potent I got over 3 K/D ratio with 300-400 ping average, and flaky HSR code. Anyway, if you single out the AC40 with a light you can pretty safely(relative to say a medium or even a heavy) try to occupy it or even kill it byy smart maneuvers(stay out of its front area, do not run straight line away if retreat or advance on it) Also, in this instance, Jump jetting around may be worse depending on mech because(I did anyway) leg hits seem easier to land on a flying mech and the trajectory is predictable. Circle of doom, or maybe elipse of doom may be more accurate works on these things provided it has no pals to support it and you are rextremely carfeul on paths.

Aim for side torso, the same side torso: when you are in front of it. Shooting legs? yes, please try to leg me while I core you, and your pal just thinks you are a bad shot and tries to hit my side torso. No. Aim for side torso.

When i am twisted to spread dmg between shots or anticipating yours: depends on situation, if you are a medium, use this time to move the hell out of the way to a different position so I have to re-aim when i turn back. if you will retreat to cover, shoot whatever part of me you can. if not: WAIT. yes, wait for me to think it is safe and then shoot me in the ST when i look back. it is a nerve racking tactic, but it is the only way to kepe your dmg from hitting me in a useless arm or leg or something because you only get a couple before I kill you. EVEN IF you die, if you hit my ST with a quality shot, you gave your pals a lot better chance at getting me then if you had shaved some arm armor off.

One other thing to note, very important: if I have twisted, you can still look for a ST shot, because of beergut ST sticking out. if it has gun barrels near or over it, dont take the shot. if I am busy with someone else, do it for sure. Also, look to see if I have over compensated for position and see if I have shown my back to you. Even a little, if you can hit my back the lights on your team will now have a solid shot at getting an alpha strike kill on my back. it will also make me more apprehensive about my twisting, and possibly change my tactics. It is also very important, because with my rediculous bad ping, there is a significant chance someones PPC shot will register a hit to my back because of HSR issues, and if you took some armor off, it might be enough to kill me(twice that happened, once from PPC cicada, another from gauss rifle 4X)

otherwise, the advice from the OP is decent when it comes to detection and approach. Mind you, I personally was not so easy to detect early on, hence the success. it is also helpful if you indicate to your team where my AC40 is, or that I exist even, even if you die. Anyone that knows anything will then look for me to take me out quick, and smart teams will be on guard and alter their flank or approach to minimize the dmg i can do to them.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope this is helpful to some.

#43 wanderer

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 10:41 AM

My usual advice when dealing with a twin-20 'Mech?

Sweep the legs. Taking an arm doesn't stop one, a side torso doesn't always kill one either- but legging one leaves them a slow, easily sniped target that can't chase people to swat with it's big guns. If you knock a leg off and aren't doing so hot? You've got a chance to break off and let someone else further away get rid of it for you.

Oldschool 20-pults had to run standard engines in any case, which meant most times it only quit firing if you cored it or legged it- and legging takes less work.

#44 AaronWolf

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 10:50 AM

I generally just strip them of their arms from a distance. Range is their weakness ATM.

Overall the OP gave very good info though. So. +1

#45 Spokig

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 10:52 AM

Range is the most efficient... if i see someone who tries to run around me and torso twist between shots then its game over for them.

alot of good tips but vs a experienced pilot you need to be alot more careful, LRMS and taking out support for the Jagershot is the best way.

#46 D Sync

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 03:16 PM

Having problems with dual AC/20 builds?


Use more range, or speed.


K.I.S.S.


Move, counter-move.

#47 White Bear 84

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 03:20 PM

Kudos to OP for good post that I would personally advise all noobs to take note of. :mellow:

Usually when we play as a group, mechs that are likely to be dual AC/Gauss builds are one of the top priorities, along with ECM mechs, streak builds and if we can reach them - persistent volley LRM boats

#48 Asmosis

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 11:59 PM

View Postwanderer, on 28 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

My usual advice when dealing with a twin-20 'Mech?

Sweep the legs. Taking an arm doesn't stop one, a side torso doesn't always kill one either- but legging one leaves them a slow, easily sniped target that can't chase people to swat with it's big guns. If you knock a leg off and aren't doing so hot? You've got a chance to break off and let someone else further away get rid of it for you.

Oldschool 20-pults had to run standard engines in any case, which meant most times it only quit firing if you cored it or legged it- and legging takes less work.


Legging has a good chance of killing them outright if its in the first few minutes of the engagement.

Also if you can see one is about to pop out of cover, fire a warning shot. Its surprisingly effective at keeping people from leaving cover if they see they are about to walk into a laser beam, especially if they are not within their optimal range of ~300m-400m

If your a light, don't assume you can circle strafe them. they are highly maneuverable themselves, and can easily backpedal and line you up if they are a decent shot, and they only need one.

Edited by Asmosis, 29 January 2014 - 12:01 AM.


#49 627

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:24 PM

I find it interesting that everyone only write guides about dual AC20 and how to deal with them which mostly revolves around keeping range.

one of the actual meta builds is 2PPC/AC20 which is the same 40point damage - and even at 500m you still have a solid 30point alpha. this is way more dangerous, paired with jumpjets, still you don't find advice for them.

#50 Krujiente

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:49 PM

the real weakness of that jager build is they are using a brawl weapon in a non-brawl chassis (no arms to protect the side torsos) and and most use an XL engine which means it is PAINFULLY easy to blow the sides off of them if you're just mildly faster.
the trial blackjack is in better shape because it has jumpjets. But its still using an XL engine without arms, I find that a little scary with a brawl weapon. I'd use a standard 200 in a BJ-1 and get pretty much the same build.
If its a Catapult its gonna be very slow because of the standard engine, but harder to blow out the sides.

Edited by Krujiente, 29 January 2014 - 12:52 PM.


#51 Hawk819

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:14 PM

IMHO, it's a total waste to take a `Mech and load it down with just one weapon type. Say twin AC/20 on a Firebrand. Just a waste of tonnage.

Firstly, a `Mech such as Firebrand is better as a Particle Projection Cannon boat with four Mediums, Pulse or Regular, make little difference, And if one has the tonnage, twin LB AC/10s. In fact, that would be a better than just loading down with just two weapons.

Firebrand:
2 LB AC/10s
2 PPCs
2 Medium Pulse Lasers (or four, if tonnage allows)

Choice is all on the one who wants to use this. As for me, I will not totally boat a `Mech. No matter what! I'd rather utilize range as much as possible. With long range weapons, no more than two, a host of intermediate range (Medium 270-540), and short. If I could pull it off. For by the time my opponent is done with my ***, he/she will be hurting. I may I lose, but I'm going to make their victory costly.

#52 wanderer

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 01:23 PM

Quote

one of the actual meta builds is 2PPC/AC20 which is the same 40point damage - and even at 500m you still have a solid 30point alpha. this is way more dangerous, paired with jumpjets, still you don't find advice for them.


That's because the only real solution in this case is "have one yourself".

It's optimized- a pop-tart capable, pinpoint damage, high alpha machine. The best the meta provides, in a nutshell.

Oddly enough,the same advice applies. Sweep the leg. It's still likely to sacrifice a bit of armor (especially since poptarts have frequently legs covered by terrain) and knocking a leg off is the most effective way to outmaneuver it's guns...plus it can't shield it's legs with a torso twist.

#53 Just wanna play

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 07:52 AM

lol i personally actually just get a light to face huge ac/20 dual ppc type builds, their torso mounted weapon can't hit you and he can't aim his ac/20 at you, iv killled a high lander in a spider just by staying on his chest in between his arms, he couldn't do anything, although he might have had dual uac/5s, can't remember the exact gun

light can do this to jagers as well

Edited by Just wanna play, 15 February 2014 - 07:54 AM.


#54 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:06 PM

View PostJust wanna play, on 15 February 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

...

light can do this to jagers as well


Uh..... NO.

On a related subject:

http://mwomercs.com/...om-jager-lance/

;)

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 15 February 2014 - 11:08 PM.


#55 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 11:14 PM

View Postwanderer, on 29 January 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

That's because the only real solution in this case is "have one yourself".

It's optimized- a pop-tart capable, pinpoint damage, high alpha machine. The best the meta provides, in a nutshell.

Oddly enough,the same advice applies. Sweep the leg. It's still likely to sacrifice a bit of armor (especially since poptarts have frequently legs covered by terrain) and knocking a leg off is the most effective way to outmaneuver it's guns...plus it can't shield it's legs with a torso twist.


PGI provided the solution to that one by slowing down the AC/20 projectile so that it's difficult to hit the same component with the PPCs and the AC/20.

However, people have gotten back into PPC/Gauss combos again. The most dangerous is probably the dual PPC/ UAC5 combo still.

#56 Just wanna play

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 03:16 PM

View PostJigglyMoobs, on 15 February 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:


Uh..... NO.

On a related subject:

http://mwomercs.com/...om-jager-lance/

:lol:

he wont even be able to see ya, so how is he gonna put his aiming cursor on ya, think about it :( seriously though, why are the arms on all mechs allowed to converge when they can't even physically move the weapon left and right??

#57 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:07 PM

View PostJust wanna play, on 16 February 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

he wont even be able to see ya, so how is he gonna put his aiming cursor on ya, think about it :lol:  seriously though, why are the arms on all mechs allowed to converge when they can't even physically move the weapon left and right??


You're thinking about people who are fairly inexperienced or have bad aim.  AC/40 Jagers with the proper engines and good pilots will eat lights for breakfast.  Even if you do 150 KPH you will not be able to circle around him faster than he can turn and aim in place, and it just takes one hit to crit your leg.

If you are in a light you need to avoid those Jagers like the plague unless you are armed with PPCs or a similarly long range weapon.  You can swarm such a Jager with two or more lights, or hit him while he's distracted with someone else, but it is still very dangerous unless the Boom Jager is already stripped.

Same goes also, btw, to Gauss snipers.  You wouldn't think so, but it's true, mainly because of the huge damage and the fast projectiles, and the fact that the heavy pilot can screw up many times but the light pilot can screw up not even once.

Some times I actually go actively hunting lights two builds.  Here is a video of what could happen.  Not great example but you can get the idea. :(


Edited by JigglyMoobs, 16 February 2014 - 06:47 PM.


#58 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:30 PM

Don't stand still, don't walk straight up to them, don't back straight away from them.

#59 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 06:46 PM

View PostRebas Kradd, on 16 February 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Don't stand still, don't walk straight up to them, don't back straight away from them.


And be patient! A lot of people see a Boom Jager and feel like they HAVE to deal with the Jager then and there. They get drawn in close to "attack" the Jager when that's exactly what the Boom Jager wants. In fact it's often better to move away and pick a better opportunity to engage. Wait until it's wounded. Wait until it's not looking. Put down and strike on it and high tail it out of there until it's hurt or busy. If you engage on the Boom Jager's terms, you'll get hurt. If you force it to engage on yours, you can prevail with your armor intact.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 17 February 2014 - 12:04 AM.


#60 Just wanna play

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 06:44 PM

View PostJigglyMoobs, on 16 February 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:


You're thinking about people who are fairly inexperienced or have bad aim. AC/40 Jagers with the proper engines and good pilots will eat lights for breakfast. Even if you do 150 KPH you will not be able to circle around him faster than he can turn and aim in place, and it just takes one hit to crit your leg.

If you are in a light you need to avoid those Jagers like the plague unless you are armed with PPCs or a similarly long range weapon. You can swarm such a Jager with two or more lights, or hit him while he's distracted with someone else, but it is still very dangerous unless the Boom Jager is already stripped.

Same goes also, btw, to Gauss snipers. You wouldn't think so, but it's true, mainly because of the huge damage and the fast projectiles, and the fact that the heavy pilot can screw up many times but the light pilot can screw up not even once.

Some times I actually go actively hunting lights two builds. Here is a video of what could happen. Not great example but you can get the idea. ;)

to get you off they would need either more speed in reverse then you have going forward, not happening



i did not say use your speed to circle them, i said go face hug them because they won't be able to aim at you there and don't have the speed (or jjs) to get you off of them

Edited by Just wanna play, 17 February 2014 - 06:45 PM.






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