625 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

yep teamwork is no longer OP, clanners defeat it every time...

yeah right. i've already posted how claners can be complete loosers even with the high tech but lets just run through the points again.

1} clan weapons in general will have 50% longer cooldowns so spamming is no longer viable, inf act over time an IS ppc will lay on more damage in 20seconds than a clan erppc.

2} Clan mechs will not have;

a} pilot tree perks like IS, that's where they should be nerfed hard! just force clan players to earn a **** load of "honour" points for modules and that's it. no speedtweaks no heat containment ****, that's for IS to bring them up to clan snuff!

b} good hitboxes and scaling, for "undefeatable" xls and omni modules {huh like that matters when ravens can carry an ac20 and 4ppc stalkers can still be built} the clans shall not have that. their CT's hitboxes will consume 65-75% of the torso along with being 10-25% largers by scale than an IS counterpart. torso twisting to spread damage will be exclusive to IS mechs, clanners will be bulit magnets.

Quote

as we know the start of these problems was realised by the community when the stalker replaced the awesome. thus polls sprung up about reducing catapults and awesomes sizes and make the stalker bigger. this too is down to hitboxes as well. over time we've seen trebs kintaro's quickdraws awesomes etc suffer for hitboxes and scaling. remember pics like this?




we know that bigger size mechs suffer HEAVILY in combat along with their hitboxes... would this not be the perfect counter for CLAN TECH? balance the equipment with mechs that are proportoinally BIGGER than IS counterparts? lets see...


what a fearsome bunch but lets see what they look like against IS mechs...



OMG they're barns compared to some IS mechs, surely big overgrown bullet magnets will counter the tech. we've seen it work on kintaro's etc huge hitboxes don't compensate well for "superior firepower", being this easy to hit is a serious drawback. would it counter clan tech? well it would be best to implement it like this and if clanners are still op THEN we can nerf the equipement to balance.

3} Clanners will be out numbered of course.


that being said the devs will do what the devs will do so futility is in the suggestions. there's no point arguing this over.

[unFearing]

Didn't bother reading all the posts, but i'll state or restate that if we do go the heavily outnumbered route, which I LOVE the idea of (probably 4-7 vs 12 maybe), the developers would just have to recalculate how Team Horde would get enough Cbills to make it worthwhile for them...

The Clanners would only have so much damage they could take, and distributing this among the IS fighters is kind of an awkward thing. How much does the scout get for finding that stealthy clan mech that keeps dipping out of the battle? What about the game modes? Will the clans just be storming the base, and IS get cbills (or less) based on how well the base was defended?

Etc.. basically gotta worry about how to keep it so that the time:cbill ratio is more or less the same as a regular IS vs IS match.

the balancing is for you guys to discuss...

Edited by unFearing, 09 December 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[K1ttykat]

To call it a nerf is kind of a negative way to look at it. I see it as a fix. If they stuck to the TRO, clan tech (for the most part) would just be all round better than IS which gives it a very generic feel. They've said that they are going to try to make clan tech more unique which will make for a more fun experience. Your clan LL shoots a bit further than an IS erLL and does a bit more damage, how interesting is that and (if they allow mixed tech) why would you choose anything else?

Can you even imagine the balancing nightmare if they were to stick to canon and have clans fight outnumbered? I'm all for asymmetrical gameplay but the crowd of negative nancys is hard enough to deal with as it is. The cries of clan OP/IS OP would drown out even the worst of spider HSR.

Clan pre-mades would be even stronger than pre-mades already are, they would completely wreck the unorganized IS mechs. Sure, maybe the IS mechs would have a chance if they all worked together but when do you ever see that happening? People will try to fight 1 or 2 at a time like they always do, no matter how much pre-game "we have to stick together guys" talk.

If you want some clan mech domination, play some MWLL. I for one am excited to see what this game does differently than the games that came before it.

[Grey Death Storm]

mwhighlander, on 09 December 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Oh, I see. So lets just throw away half of the game so you have have brokenly good Clan tech.


Simply astonishing.

What a load of Rubbish you have just came out with Surely you can do better, the game is in a mess because causal player whined to devs to Nerf this and that, this what caused problems = (don't believe me watch YouTube, or Facebook and other social media ect.) and they have not developed any new tech users get bored, Please stop trying to twist my word with Bull {Scrap}, I find it amusing that pbiggz was the one who put a like to your comment, I didn't even bother answer his last comment because there was no point his opinion is False and incorrect like I have already said I am not going to go over any more what I said I have made my point don't believe me research it.

Edited by Death Storm, 09 December 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[pbiggz]

Death Storm, on 09 December 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

What a load of Rubbish you have just came out with Surely you can do better, the game is in a mess because causal player whined to devs to Nerf this and that, this what caused problems = (don't believe me watch YouTube, or Facebook and other social media ect.) and they have not developed any new tech users get bored, Please stop trying to twist my word with Bull {Scrap}, I find it amusing that pbiggz was the one who put a like to your comment, I didn't even bother answer his last comment because there was no point his opinion is False and incorrect like I have already said I am not going to go over any more what I said I have made my point don't believe me research it.

Opinions are not boolean, they cannot be false or incorrect. You are entitled to disagree with me just as I am entitled to say you are so deep in the pool of ******** you dont even know which way is up. Also, Mwhighlander and I both play competitively, so if you claim we are whining casuals you are simply wrong. I've never seen you in a competitive drop. And don't make sweeping judgements about how "the game is a mess because of whiners" because that is quite simply false. There is absolutely no factual evidence to support it. Whiners did not implement (insert mechanic you disagree with). PGI did it and it was their choice to do it. You have yet to actually counter any of my arguments, and your straw man arguments dont count, especially since I dismantled every single one of them.

[ElCadaver]

The really Good games, the memorable ones, were really hard and unforgiving, and people loved them for it.

I hope the whinging little babies are in the minority.

I for one, with an anti-whinge, look forward to coordinating with my team mates, fighting against the odds to bring down an opponent using superior technology.

After all, don't some of us want to experience being an IS mech jock battling the Clan invasion? Isn't that what the timeline MWO is using is going to simulate?

Edited by ElCadaver, 09 December 2013 - 05:32 PM.

[ChallengerCC]

I am totaly for "nerfing" clan mechs, they should do more damage but get more heat or something like that. So that it is balanced, another option dont exist, or it would be to complicated, asymmetric and the reason of that will be that you never get MWO balanced. Matter of fact. And i am also to get rid of this **** mech rules for lasers AC20 range and such stuff make it realistic and not only because a table top needed this rules to be playable. This not a tabletop !!! So get rid of this evolved historical rule set. (lasersystem like in Mechwarrior Living Legends that system was cool)


And i love to see a competition between IS Mechs and Clan Mechs.
So i am totally for balanced Clan mechs on comparison 1p vs 1p!

Edited by ChallengerCC, 09 December 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Chemistry Warden]

Death Storm, on 09 December 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

his opinion is False and incorrect

Well, this statement is factually false. Opinions are inherently not a fact, and as a result can be neither correct nor incorrect.

ninja'd by pbiggz

OT:

The primary issue with clans being introduced as they are in TT arises from the fact that the majority of players (casual AND hardcore) want to drive around in the most powerful space robot possible.

If the clans are introduced in an inherently OP nature, then I'd expect less than 25% of the player base would continue to play IS tech. Have fun waiting half an hour to find ONE match in a clan mech.

Edited by Chemistry Warden, 09 December 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[ChallengerCC]

GalaxyBluestar, on 09 December 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

yep teamwork is no longer OP, clanners defeat it every time...

yeah right. i've already posted how claners can be complete loosers even with the high tech but lets just run through the points again.

1} clan weapons in general will have 50% longer cooldowns so spamming is no longer viable, inf act over time an IS ppc will lay on more damage in 20seconds than a clan erppc.

2} Clan mechs will not have;

a} pilot tree perks like IS, that's where they should be nerfed hard! just force clan players to earn a **** load of "honour" points for modules and that's it. no speedtweaks no heat containment ****, that's for IS to bring them up to clan snuff!

b} good hitboxes and scaling, for "undefeatable" xls and omni modules {huh like that matters when ravens can carry an ac20 and 4ppc stalkers can still be built} the clans shall not have that. their CT's hitboxes will consume 65-75% of the torso along with being 10-25% largers by scale than an IS counterpart. torso twisting to spread damage will be exclusive to IS mechs, clanners will be bulit magnets.



3} Clanners will be out numbered of course.


that being said the devs will do what the devs will do so futility is in the suggestions. there's no point arguing this over.

I like that changes from you in the moment i feel the sizes are not correct. Good work!

[Xevian Flux]

I'd think a decent counter to the clan-tech superiority would be a system of enforcing clan honor rules. Just as an example: Clans were traditionally honor-bound to one-on-one combat. If you fire on a mech that another clanner has already shot, you recieve no c-bills/xp for that round. (ok maybe they'd still get 50% or so) That'd keep quite a few people in their IS mechs. The point is, you don't have to nerf the tech, you just need to make it harder to use it effectively. On the flip-side, this would be a great time to re-introduce rearm/repair mechanics to the effect of having to re-buy any destroyed clan tech on an IS mech...

Just a thought

[pbiggz]

problem is there are no real ways to effectively enforce zellbrigen in a non-tabletop environment.

Edited by pbiggz, 09 December 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[TheMightyServo]

pbiggz, on 09 December 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

I would like to introduce you to Randall Bills. http://mwomercs.com/...2-randall-bills
Mr. Bills was responsible for designing the clans in classic battle tech and has a few interesting things to say about them.

What?

Quote

In ‘94 most of my gaming group traveled to Gen Con for the first time and despite best efforts made a nuisance of ourselves geeking out at the FASA booth (and I decided I could never ‘not’ go again; been attending ever since).


In ‘95 Brian Nystul, the BattleTech Line Developer at the time, was brought out to Hex-a-Con as a guest and I asked him if he wanted to play in a “3039 variant” I’d designed of the strategic-level BattleTech box set game Succession Wars. He actually said yes and we stayed up all Saturday night playing (I’ve still got that around here somewhere and while it’s painfully clunky…it was really my first attempt at serious game design).
Two months later my gaming group was back at Gen Con and we even got permission to go to the FASA offices after the show, where we were monster fan-boys, despite my best efforts to ‘be cool’. For example the Clan homeworlds map had not yet been published and we saw it pinned up on Bryan’s wall, so we were trying to distract him while we copied the map down. Ahaha…painful, but funny thinking back on it.

TRO 3050 Return of Kerensky came out in May of 1990. Wolf Clan sourcebook came out in 1991. Jade Falcon Sourcebook came out in 1992.

How did he "design the clans" when he wasn't there?

[dak irakoz]

I know the classic clans are OP, therefore people want, no need them to be OP, but honestly look at this from a game economy ecosystem perspective. Realistically everyone wants better stuff so the current IS stuff is going to be just a stepping stone for the better clan stuff. All that work and time, but the clan stuff is just all around better so why not? This is why they can't just make it unequivocally better. They're going change things up by having the clan stuff be different, so providing a more varied experience, not just a transition from all IS to all Clan. And besides, wasn't this the same community that berated PGI about sticking to some TT numbers? A bit hypocritical, I say.

[GalaxyBluestar]

dak irakoz, on 09 December 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

And besides, wasn't this the same community that berated PGI about sticking to some TT numbers? A bit hypocritical, I say.

you can't talk about the community like that. this community loves and hates TT values, thinks {insert weapon equipment here} is OP and UP, thinks so much of the same stuff works and doesn't work. so if you think the community is hypocritical than consider this mass is also schizophrenic becoause it encompasses all sides and all arguments.

pbiggz, on 09 December 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

problem is there are no real ways to effectively enforce zellbrigen in a non-tabletop environment.

there's a way of doing this and i'll get back to you in this thread i just need some time to organise a possible risk/reward simulation of Zellbrigen that could be used in the game.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 09 December 2013 - 07:26 PM.

[ImperialKnight]

Every time I see this topic of Clan tech, I reply with the same thing. The best way to balance Clan mechs is already in the canon. Pod space and hardwired components.

Let the Clan mechs have their fancy Clantech weapons and variability limited by pod space. Clan mechs CANNOT change engine or armor values. If it has an XL, it has an XL. Forget about brawling with it. Only a STD200 in a medium mech that can only go 55kph, live with it. Only 20 points of armor in the legs? let me tear it right off.

[pbiggz]

Its not omnimechs we're worried about, in fact, some omnis are pretty much useless given the limitations. It's the weapons and equipment that are problematic.

[Mao of DC]

pbiggz, on 09 December 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Also if you try to balance by facing 10 clanners against 12 Inner Sphere, then what happens when mercenaries (who have access to tech via black market) buy clan tech and then field 12 clan tech mechs against 10 clanners or 12 inner sphere. You may as well throw your half baked system out the window at that point.

Well the fix for that is not allow clan tech to be installed in IS mechs. Cannon has it that it takes a few years for the lab coat gangs to figure out how to get Clan tech and IS tech to talk to each other. Unless you were a high ranking member of the Wolves' Dragoons that is, but they were a special case.

[Aegic]

Don't nerf the Clans. Let them drop 4 Lances against 2 stars. That means IS side will have a 2 mech and potential 200 ton advantage. Once the timeline is appropriate and IS mechs start to get clan tech change it up another way.

Edited by Aegic, 09 December 2013 - 10:15 PM.

[Zolaz]

Not much hope in PGI doing this correctly. It just feels like PGI is trolling me every time they make a decision.

[Rovertoo]

I think that uneven teams would be really tricky to balance out, though it would be cool.

My ideas are these (and they don't really go hand in hand at all. Pick and choose what you like):

Clan vs IS matches are 'bid', with the Clans using the least amount of mechs they think they need to destroy the IS (Beats me how this'd be applied in game, though. Some kind of voting system? Increased match rewards for winning with inferior/balanced Clan numbers/firepower to IS?)

Clan weapons are all DPS, similar to lasers. Their Auto-cannons fire multiple rounds of lower damage, their missiles fire out of the tubes in continual salvos, and their lasers have an increased duration. This way, that even with more damage, less weight, etc, it would take a really steady hand and crazy aim to localize all the damage.