625 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Using WoW as an argument for PvP balance?

A server that imbalanced between -two- factions? Instead of many? ROFLMAO. (Doo doo de doo doo.)

With the same "tech"- that is, the same gear, classes and skills available to either side?

This is your reason for turning the Clans into the giant robot equivalent of tapioca?

It's the same reason there's more Empire vs. Republic players in PvP- for whatever reasons, PvP players are more attracted to Horde (or bad guys in general- SWTOR is the same way with Empire) than Alliance. They pulled enough guilds over to have an overwhelming advantage and simply unleashed hell until the other side left for greener pastures- plenty of servers to dominate after all.

Clan-in-name-only will make these factions the kiss of PvP death- "uninteresting", followed by motivated hardcore IS players backslapping themselves for kicking Clanner tail all over the map and the Clan population going the way of the Alliance on Illidan. You are not prepared.

That's what happens when you're not interesting enough and all else is "balanced". Take it from a guy who cut his giant robot stomping teeth on MPBT3025. In the least "interesting" House, Liao.

Davion players ritually curbstomped us every reset like clockwork- without them, Liao basically sat on whatever few worlds the devs said couldn't be taken. Everything else was Davion or rarely, Marik (who got their teeth mostly kicked in by Steiner). Woo, FedSuns!

On the other hand, if you are different ENOUGH and your Clantech is actually Clantech, you'll actually attract players good enough to say "Numbers? We're leet, more scrubs to polish my KDR-W/L.". If you're not different enough, then all you become is handily named target practice as you're the "bad guys" people love to win against and we can share stories later about how all we get to see is planets within one jump of our own capital.

Problems with Clantech gear is the same problems as IS gear, magnified. Pinpoint, frontloaded damage. Fix it now and Clan versions won't be broken either. Splash PPC damage, burst autocannons and you're not seeing 45 damage to one spot from Clan PPC boats, or instant 80-points Clan Ultra/20 blasts when someone can twist and turn to spread a multi-shell barrage across their entire torso rather than double-tap 80 through the CT and out the backside.

[pbiggz]

You can choose to ignore my argument based on the fact that I used numbers, but the argument still stands, whether you elect to disregard it or not. The core of my point is that players will flock to the most powerful factions they can, in this case, it would be the clans. Once that imbalance starts, it is very hard to get rid of it, and it snowballs into the "illidan" situation where inner sphere factions end up being mercilessly stomped by the more well-armed clans.

As I said before, the clan techbase is absurdly superior to IS tech. Massive increases in effectiveness with little or no disadvantage. It might work for some people in a table top game, but randall bills himself said the power of the clans was a mistake, and even still, a dice-rolling pen and paper game doesn't always translate 1 to 1 into an action simulator or shooter. Once again, you can elect to ignore this fact as well, but it doesn't change reality.

You can babble about how the whiners want to reduce the clans to "tapioca" but im more concerned with this game actually functioning. I said before that I care about the lore, asymmetrical warfare might come up in scenario styled play or special game modes, but in typical drops, you can go ahead and can your lore, because its not happening. Get. Used. To. It.

[Auton]

elsie, on 09 December 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

As an old time wargamer/TT player, I saw what the introduction of clan tech did to the games. The only way for the clan player to lose was if he couldn't roll the dice to save his life or he was an ***** tactician. Numerical inferiority was not a good balance factor against clans, unless it got to the point of ridiculous. For the groups I played with, it ended up broken into two basic camps: all clan or no clan. And I think the no clan group had more fun and told better stories.

I also remember back in High School when this occurred. Every Wed after school was a game night and we would play battletech. I always used IS and then one day people came in with all these new mechs that tore me up. Well I got the new rules and read up on C3. Then every lance had C3 and a light with C3 and ECM. They could never find my lights or hit them when they did find them (we used blind rules so I did not have to place mechs that were not seen or could not be sensed). This let me set up all my gauss and long range guns that could now shoot as if from short range. Now this would not work here but lets say the IS only gets ECM well that would really put a damper on Clan mechs as they would not be able to find out who is targeting them. They will figure it out in the long run.

[CyclonerM]

pbiggz, on 23 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

These are the sorts of things we need to think about, not a sweeping change to all regular matches. Typical pug matches need to be balanced.

I like your idea of special events but what fun is to play the Clans if they are exactly the same as IS? They will be the most boring Clans ever seen in BT/MW. If your fear is to have overpowered if you limit even more the Clans the balance might even shift in the opposite direction (exactly as bad, but we know perfect balance among 10 factions is going to be impossible to achieve).

Quote

With regards to lightly armored omni mechs, I'm hoping a shift in the meta will make them appear more. It mostly requires a shift away from pinpoint alpha meta.

I hope it so. But hey - with tonnage restrictions a little and light PPC/UAC sniper could be a valuable asset, quiaff?

[Zolaz]

Well, they cant sell Hero mechs and all their Inner Sphere content if they clans are too good. Lore cant stand in the way of your cash grab.

[wanderer]

Quote

The core of my point is that players will flock to the most powerful factions they can, in this case, it would be the clans.

Your "point" used two factions in WoW that have precisely the same level of power- one simply had better players curbstomp the other until they quit for another server.

Same. Horde and Alliance. The differences, other than looks are minimal.

And you want Clan 'Mechs to end up the same way and use -WoW's- results of one side driving the other out entirely to reinforce why it should happen,a game in which the winner is simply a matter of which side is more popular?

We had that in MPBT3025, which would be the -last- game with community warfare. Everyone got similar 'Mechs, just like WoW gear and classes. The game became win or lose based on popularity and population. I was Liao, the results my previous post notes.

You don't want to be "most favorite kicking target" in a game like the one you envision. You'll end up the same way. Kicked and ganged up on until people consider Clanners nothing more than diehards, tryhards, and ignorant newbies who haven't figured out yet the glorious winnahs of the Inner Sphere like nothing more than a Clan stomping while the forums judge you as the target dummies for everyone else. MPBT Liao beat Davion down ONCE. Because we figured out a bug in the coding and used it to literally fly our 'Mechs over Davion defenses to victory (and then told the dev in detail so it could be fixed).

Better to be too good at the start than just like the rest- nerfs are easy, buffs are hard and by the time you get them, the Clans will be ghost town factions in a few shiny gold pieces of junk ridden by the players who drank the kool-aid and spent so much money on Clan stuff, they won't give it up even as they find out how a repair bill can hit the billions in less than an hour.

If your numbers are supposed to be support for your argument, they're HORRIBLE support.

[cobaltdragon]

They have to nerf it in some manner--it's unrealistic and poor initial design to have never made any downsides. It's the same with Superman. I mean who gives a flying flask if the guy has no weakness...so they eventually introduce...you guessed it...Kryptonite. This is the same way...you can't have the initial mechs in the game and just *hope* that people will still want to play after they have invested a great deal of time and money into developing a huge field of mechs. It's not a tough decision--they actually *have* to nerf clan mechs or it won't be fair to those who have actually invested real hard earned dollars into their company.

[GalaxyBluestar]

cobaltdragon, on 23 January 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

They have to nerf it in some manner--it's unrealistic and poor initial design to have never made any downsides. It's the same with Superman. I mean who gives a flying flask if the guy has no weakness...so they eventually introduce...you guessed it...Kryptonite. This is the same way...you can't have the initial mechs in the game and just *hope* that people will still want to play after they have invested a great deal of time and money into developing a huge field of mechs. It's not a tough decision--they actually *have* to nerf clan mechs or it won't be fair to those who have actually invested real hard earned dollars into their company.

the nerfs are simple, IS field more tech to offset the power of the clan tech, asymetric balance as the game was founded on and hasn't destoyed the franchise, infact it boosted it's audience with clans and now PGI want to ruin it.

pbiggz, on 23 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

There are better ways of doing it, mostly through game modes or scenario play. For example: clan players could engage in the infamous trial of refusal between the jaguars and the wolves to stop the clan invasion in 3048, that would use all sorts of clan organization, 10v10 matches etc. Or a scenario centering around some sort of capellan raid into fedcom territory, where the caps would use typical military structure while the fedcom would be using combined arms RCTs.

These are the sorts of things we need to think about, not a sweeping change to all regular matches. Typical pug matches need to be balanced.

Lol you know perfectly well that any type of mission play is out of the question for years. Read theplan? Attack and defend replacing assault and the current game mode is all MWO will have for years. So no clan representation will be through sad roleplayers only and they won’t have the correct means or equipment to achieve it. Any lore play will be pay to lobby only. and IS vs clan fights with the clan tech being lobsided is completely ruined. You can’t have lore without being vastly outgunned by the IS thanks to PGI’s ideas of balance. All the lobby clanners are getting the big middle finger all because IS players should all be allowed to migrate to clan mechs anyways. A totall farce. and not organising clans into seperate MM conditions now is no way to set these "invaders" for CW, so i'm convinced there will be no CW like it was advertised.

pbiggz, on 23 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

With regards to lightly armored omni mechs, I'm hoping a shift in the meta will make them appear more. It mostly requires a shift away from pinpoint alpha meta.

Bwhaaa ha ha ha ha! You hope weak barns will become a meta! Locust snipers are OP! Seriously the hellbringer under pgi is worse off than an awesome having it’s engine internals and armour locked and would struggle to match the speed and firepower. So much for it’s all about balance!

pbiggz, on 23 January 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

You can choose to ignore my argument based on the fact that I used numbers, but the argument still stands, whether you elect to disregard it or not. The core of my point is that players will flock to the most powerful factions they can, in this case, it would be the clans. Once that imbalance starts, it is very hard to get rid of it, and it snowballs into the "illidan" situation where inner sphere factions end up being mercilessly stomped by the more well-armed clans.

As I said before, the clan techbase is absurdly superior to IS tech. Massive increases in effectiveness with little or no disadvantage. It might work for some people in a table top game, but randall bills himself said the power of the clans was a mistake, and even still, a dice-rolling pen and paper game doesn't always translate 1 to 1 into an action simulator or shooter. Once again, you can elect to ignore this fact as well, but it doesn't change reality.

You can babble about how the whiners want to reduce the clans to "tapioca" but im more concerned with this game actually functioning. I said before that I care about the lore, asymmetrical warfare might come up in scenario styled play or special game modes, but in typical drops, you can go ahead and can your lore, because its not happening. Get. Used. To. It.

Biggest load of {scrap} ever. You know why everyone migrates to the FOTM {and it’s verried from murder ravens to splatcats to poptarts} it’s called winning and it’s determined by how fast you can kill mechs to overwhelm the final opposition. When you have less mechs this win is less likely. 4 poptarting lords can not win against 6 TS3 vets in what they choose or 10 random puggers when they know what they’re facing. And they would know if the MM was asymmetric, that’s why 10vs16 or 5vs8 is a good idea because the IS players will know the odds and go for the close quarters approach because that is always an advantage against clans who want to weaken IS and cut them down to size before. that’s the balance tactical flavour this game needs to interest people not more of the same even sides using the same tactics again and again and again. Flocking to OP clans? Not if a false move meant twice as many mechs focus fire you and you know how IS group fire can be punishing even to an atlas and they’ll hardly be a clan mech of similar resistance fielded. Typical pug matches have never been nor will be balanced with the current MM because the games most balancing factor has always been numbers, one false move results in domino landslides. people who are 3 mechs down so rarely win and win they do it’s usually through capping. so why screw over clanners when they can inherit this disadvantage in return for extra firepower?

TBH a few compromises can be expected, if pgi conceded to original values on weapons and the TT customisation or nerf weapons and offer real omni pods and just as much but most of all no mixed teams or tech then maybe this MWO will start looking like a mechwarrior game. either that or a sencible salvage system but there's no way that could be done for constant deathmatch game without making IS redundunt. at the moment it's all a sandpit deathmatch of little resemblance to mechwarrior. the ecm and bap are wrong, the heatsinks and the customisation involved with them are wrong, ghost heat adds to the problems, if it weren't for weapon groups and a bunch of mechanics and names i'd say it was a completely different game than mechwarrior. it's changed so much from the 2012 vision and CW has no relevence if all there is are the great houses fielding the same stuff as the "invaders" it's false advertising to the extreme how PGI is throwing clans into the alpha functionality of this game.

the game's tried to "function" through everything should be ballanced and it's done wonders for not alienating exsisting players and bringing new blood in... oh wait.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 24 January 2014 - 02:49 AM.

[wanderer]

cobaltdragon, on 23 January 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

They have to nerf it in some manner--it's unrealistic and poor initial design to have never made any downsides. It's the same with Superman. I mean who gives a flying flask if the guy has no weakness...so they eventually introduce...you guessed it...Kryptonite. This is the same way...you can't have the initial mechs in the game and just *hope* that people will still want to play after they have invested a great deal of time and money into developing a huge field of mechs. It's not a tough decision--they actually *have* to nerf clan mechs or it won't be fair to those who have actually invested real hard earned dollars into their company.

Now, the balancer to that is thinking that Clans, if actually given tech that's properly scaled vs. IS gear would somehow be Superman. It most -definitely- has it's weak points.

1) Clan 'Mechs do not get additional armor protection. Not only that, they don't even get to realign their armor to personal preferences- although PGI was bright enough that there's at least one near-max armor Omni in each weight class. Kit Foxes are tremendously fragile compared to IS Spiders as a result. It takes just as much damage to kill a Clanner as it does an IS 'Mech...as long as you can deliver it.

2) Clan 'Mechs cannot change engines. Though faster than many comparable stock IS 'Mechs, Clanners will not be faster than many speed-optimized IS 'Mechs in their weight class- and cannot downengine, either, eliminating some slow-big-guns options in the process.

3) Even with improved DHS, stock Clan weapon layouts are generally sub-optimal. To take advantage of Clan DHS, just like the IS they'll have to devote extra tonnage to cooling and hence less weaponry- though lighter gear will help here.

4) Clan 'Mechs will magnify the flaws in weapon design- leading to those weapons getting long-needed work on them, a benefit to play for both tech trees. When you have Ultra/20 AC's stomping around, the way AC's work will get fixed...or PGI will get collective howls of peevish dismay from both Clan and IS players until they do. See 1) - Clanners with weapons that work too well will get blasted apart by their fellow Clans the same way they shoot up IS 'Mechs. If these weapons are simply made CINOtypes, expect them to remain screwed up much, much longer.

Having Clanners be real Clanners is likely the best thing that could happen for game balance- not the worst.

5) Just like in the IS, TT weapon layouts are NOT optimal. The Masakari is the Clan Awesome+1. Even with better heat sinks, it's still going to sizzle trying to fire it's quad mounts. Two at a time? Sure. Nova? Same deal, ghost heat would incinerate it if it tried alphaing. Try maybe two-thirds the firepower at best, and a considerable shift towards lower-heat ballistic and missile weaponry that even for Clanners is tonnage-intensive, but in TT would be considered "lesser" layouts. Again, a lack of being able to refit major components of a 'Mech will also serve to throttle the effectiveness of Clan layouts.

The combined results of all this makes me think that in the name of balance, Clan-in-name-only statted gear will simply result in inferior Clan forces, assuming numerical equivalence- and grossly inferior if not. This in turn will be a double shot in the foot for PGI, as the combination of insulting their core playerbase (who expected Clanners, not IS reskins) and new players (who will then find a lack of dedicated veterans and be repeatedly noob-stomped out until they switch to a "winning" faction) will lead to the aforementioned golden wasteland of the Clans.

You are Clan, you will LITERALLY be a big shiny target unless and until you can at least have a reason to be feared in individual matchups. Otherwise, you are a defanged and old wolf, a blunt-beaked falcon, a solhama before you even left your sibko. CINO.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

I'd respond to this topic, yet again -- but a few of you are so disillusional or must have zero experience with Clan v IS tech in a MechWarrior game (especially in league games where everything was min-maxed, I.e. Mw2 and 3).

The only way I can really say this without 9 paragraphs is that "You are wrong to want to keep Clan Tech as strong as they are in TT" Followed by "10v12 is not fixing the problem, whatsoever".

Deal with it, besides -- no matter how much you try and argue otherwise, PGI is currently taking the correct course of action of nerfing them so they are at least reasonable. They are still somewhat superior to IS tech, so you can stop throwing a hissy fit over that.

[CyclonerM]

mwhighlander, on 24 January 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Deal with it, besides -- no matter how much you try and argue otherwise, PGI is currently taking the correct course of action of nerfing them so they are at least reasonable. They are still somewhat superior to IS tech, so you can stop throwing a hissy fit over that.

I have to say i agree with wanderer's points. The Clans are not that overpowered, especially in MWO, compared with "omni" IS BattleMechs.

But why instead we do not just wait to see what happens? I suspect we cannot change very much PGI's approach, and how could we do it in a reasonable way without data ? I do not recall any MechWarrior game with OmniMech restrictions.

If Clan Omnies work like BattleMechs PLUS their better technology they will be clearly superior, but with Omnitech restrictions this may not happen.

[Grey Death Storm]

GalaxyBluestar, on 24 January 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

the nerfs are simple, IS field more tech to offset the power of the clan tech, asymetric balance as the game was founded on and hasn't destoyed the franchise, infact it boosted it's audience with clans and now PGI want to ruin it.



Lol you know perfectly well that any type of mission play is out of the question for years. Read theplan? Attack and defend replacing assault and the current game mode is all MWO will have for years. So no clan representation will be through sad roleplayers only and they won’t have the correct means or equipment to achieve it. Any lore play will be pay to lobby only. and IS vs clan fights with the clan tech being lobsided is completely ruined. You can’t have lore without being vastly outgunned by the IS thanks to PGI’s ideas of balance. All the lobby clanners are getting the big middle finger all because IS players should all be allowed to migrate to clan mechs anyways. A totall farce. and not organising clans into seperate MM conditions now is no way to set these "invaders" for CW, so i'm convinced there will be no CW like it was advertised.




Bwhaaa ha ha ha ha! You hope weak barns will become a meta! Locust snipers are OP! Seriously the hellbringer under pgi is worse off than an awesome having it’s engine internals and armour locked and would struggle to match the speed and firepower. So much for it’s all about balance!




Biggest load of {scrap} ever. You know why everyone migrates to the FOTM {and it’s verried from murder ravens to splatcats to poptarts} it’s called winning and it’s determined by how fast you can kill mechs to overwhelm the final opposition. When you have less mechs this win is less likely. 4 poptarting lords can not win against 6 TS3 vets in what they choose or 10 random puggers when they know what they’re facing. And they would know if the MM was asymmetric, that’s why 10vs16 or 5vs8 is a good idea because the IS players will know the odds and go for the close quarters approach because that is always an advantage against clans who want to weaken IS and cut them down to size before. that’s the balance tactical flavour this game needs to interest people not more of the same even sides using the same tactics again and again and again. Flocking to OP clans? Not if a false move meant twice as many mechs focus fire you and you know how IS group fire can be punishing even to an atlas and they’ll hardly be a clan mech of similar resistance fielded. Typical pug matches have never been nor will be balanced with the current MM because the games most balancing factor has always been numbers, one false move results in domino landslides. people who are 3 mechs down so rarely win and win they do it’s usually through capping. so why screw over clanners when they can inherit this disadvantage in return for extra firepower?

TBH a few compromises can be expected, if pgi conceded to original values on weapons and the TT customisation or nerf weapons and offer real omni pods and just as much but most of all no mixed teams or tech then maybe this MWO will start looking like a mechwarrior game. either that or a sencible salvage system but there's no way that could be done for constant deathmatch game without making IS redundunt. at the moment it's all a sandpit deathmatch of little resemblance to mechwarrior. the ecm and bap are wrong, the heatsinks and the customisation involved with them are wrong, ghost heat adds to the problems, if it weren't for weapon groups and a bunch of mechanics and names i'd say it was a completely different game than mechwarrior. it's changed so much from the 2012 vision and CW has no relevence if all there is are the great houses fielding the same stuff as the "invaders" it's false advertising to the extreme how PGI is throwing clans into the alpha functionality of this game.

the game's tried to "function" through everything should be ballanced and it's done wonders for not alienating exsisting players and bringing new blood in... oh wait.

Well Said GalaxyBluestar

Clan Tech is meant to be superior also you will be able to purchase it after the clan sale are done with CBills meaning everyone will be able to get a clan mech. More to the point If they nerf Clan Mech and weapons what is the point of buying them ?

I am feed up of whining players crying to devs for nerfs this and that its destroying the game experience, and it dosent even stop there once one weapon gets nerfed the criers are onto next best weapon they want to nerf. First it was ECM, then LRMS then it was Ghost Heat (major Blight) - stops laser boating, then PPC and Guass Rifle got nerfed now AC10 and AC20 have been nerfed, and there is now talks about NARC getting a Major Buff. see below in link

Narc Buff See link- http://mwomercs.com/...-a-narc-update/

So I ask when is all the weapon tweaks=NERFS going to stop because i'm getting tired of it, having switch loadouts because some whining players got hit by a hard hitting weapon that an experienced player has added to his mech. Moral story is that it takes away the players Wright to use certain weapons because their being forced change load-outs because of NERFS also take away the excitement danger of unique Mech build out of the game leaving a bland boring experience where every player comes in to battle with the same 2 medium laser, 2 x large laser, 2 x PPC and 2 x srm.

Edited by Death Storm, 24 January 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Because not many players will willingly enter a match knowing that their 'Mech and weapons are inferior by a wide margin?

So make it easy for them. Dont give them a choice. Make them play IS. Unlocking clan mechs should be an end-game of sorts for MWO.

[Shiro Kell]

Ive said it a dozen times before. The game was already balanced exactly as it was meant to be at board game level. There was never a need to change damage/heat etc. The only thing that does not translate from board game to PC sim is fire rate and so if a weapon is too powerful just increase the cooldown between shots. Of course PGI seem to have failed in any attempts to look at other iterations of Mechwarrior for either inspiration or technical promise, and so it seems we are at the mercy of the QQers in the community.

[Uri Brauer]

Why put the Clans in MWO at all?

Edited by Uri Brauer, 24 January 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[ssm]

Uri Brauer, on 24 January 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Why put the Clans in MWO at all?

Because Clan mechs look cool.

[CyclonerM]

Uri Brauer, on 24 January 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Why put the Clans in MWO at all?

Because we want them.

Now please go back playing at "Who wants to be a milionaire First Lord?"

[CoffiNail]

Uri Brauer, on 24 January 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Why put the Clans in MWO at all?

Because some people grew up with the Clans. Because some people in the community prefer the Clan's lore, Mech Chassis and other aspects of the descendants of the SLDF. Because, like you deserve to stomp around in a Atlas, Catapult, Hunchback, etc. I equally deserve to stomp around in my Direwolf, Mad Dog, Nova, etc.

[Pariah Devalis]

CoffiNail, on 24 January 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Because some people grew up with the Clans. Because some people in the community prefer the Clan's lore, Mech Chassis and other aspects of the descendants of the SLDF. Because, like you deserve to stomp around in a Atlas, Catapult, Hunchback, etc. I equally deserve to stomp around in my Direwolf, Mad Dog, Nova, etc.

Nonsense, Coffinail! What he likes is the only thing that matters, and it is *inconceivable that someone else should have any personal desire or attachment to the Clans whatsoever! What the heck were you thinking?! Gawd!

I mean, it is not as if anyone was possibly waiting in silent hope for the past 19 years for another game where you could actually play as a clansman. Not like anyone should be bitter that every subsequent game of Mechwarrior/Mechcommander had you playing as an Inner Sphere surat.





*Yes, I think the word means what I think it means.....

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 24 January 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 24 January 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

*Yes, I think the word means what I think it means.....

Freebirth-related double meaning?