474 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Nathan Bloodguard, on 11 December 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

First, if your advise to new players is to not touch LRMs, then why did you make this thread in the NEW PLAYER HELP forum?

This is a guide for when they first move into LRMs. I just don't recommend they start breaking them out until they've played at least a couple dozen matches with other guns. Eventually if they want to look at LRMs, this is the best place to start.

Nathan Bloodguard, on 11 December 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

Second, as for the tag, that would be when posting a LINK to the thread that goes into more detail about tag and its interaction with BOTH LRMs and Artimis LRMs. Until you provide the link to this info, then it is YOU who is providing objective facts as opinions. As I had already stated before, LAST I knew tag and arti didn't go hand in hand with each other with the ONLY exception of cutting through ECM. If this is the case, then why take arti at all? Or, if you have appropriate direct fire weapons, why have tag to cut through ECM when you could just shoot your other potental weapons (assuming you put any on) to damage/destroy the ecm mech to begin with? As stated, it would be an opinion to being in Tag with your LRM mech, not fact.

So the burden of proof is on me to disprove your crazy claim that TAG + Artemis don't work together, which you got because of either old bugs or the NARC, which really doesn't stack right with Artemis?

I hate to break it to you but they stack. They stack fine. You can visually see the stack, because LRMs will tighten/loosen at 4 points in the flight arc and will NOTICEABLY respond to both mechanics.

Literally you are the only person who thinks they don't stack. I might as well be coming here and saying "PPCs cause heat to your victim I think because they did in a previous MW game PROVE ME WRONG or you are invalid! lol!" It's stupid.

Nathan Bloodguard, on 11 December 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

As a last and final point here, it seems funny that all other opinions and facts are suddenly being censored disagreed with and being deemed incorrect are all those that disagree with you, even if backed up by facts and potential links. It seems weird that the only screen shots or videos that count are yours but all others are just "random pug matches that show the build in the best match it had" when it was really a screen shot of all mechs and their AVERAGE states, not just the best from one match.

Thus far not one person has provided a link to anything of value beyond screenshots.

I have repeatedly posted stats, reasoning, and as much information as possible. The only argument so far I have gotten is "Nuh-uh, this is what I run and I do greeeeeat." Nobody has made anything close to a compelling case for an Awesome over a Battlemaster, or no-TAG versus TAG, so far except "I did damage in it once."

I explain over and over why speed is important - to maintain range - and the people arguing it just blink and go "Nuh-uh I did damage here's my screenshot!" again.

Finally to answer your question as to why to take TAG over backup weapons and "just cleaving through them" I'd like to point out that you are going to get WAY more damage out of focused launchers than you are a few medium lasers.

This is a guide for how to make LRMs the most effective they can possibly be. And this method will utterly wreck any LRM assault anyone has recommended here with minimal damage, every single time.

[ED: Seriously. A Shadow Hawk moving at a hard 90 degree angle with a TAG lock on an assault ends up with a mildly dented Shadow Hawk and a dead assault every single time.]

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 December 2013 - 09:30 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Dear lord Tesunie. You have so much wrong about TAG I have absolutely no idea. Where are you getting these 25% modifiers and such? My sources are things like Smurfys which are kept up to date, you are quite literally talking out of your backside.

Like scratching off the faster target lock. ANYONE can go try this right now and see that it works.

You have all your facts wrong. Plus you mention stuff like 54kph Shadow Hawks.

I don't think there's any salvaging your opinion, but please, do not infect this completely inaccurate data on newbies.

EDIT: Go watch that video and take note how the 'mechs I'm shooting are hit, and how they are hit when the other LRM boats hit them. I didn't post it to prove how badass I am, I posted it to prove why the combo is important. Almost all of the damage goes RIGHT into the CT, not even impacting the side torsos. Every time. The non-combo missiles hit everything lightly on a whole side.

It works. I swear to you whatever you think you heard, you're wrong.

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 December 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

This is a guide for when they first move into LRMs. I just don't recommend they start breaking them out until they've played at least a couple dozen matches with other guns. Eventually if they want to look at LRMs, this is the best place to start. So the burden of proof is on me to disprove your crazy claim that TAG + Artemis don't work together, which you got because of either old bugs or the NARC, which really doesn't stack right with Artemis? I hate to break it to you but they stack. They stack fine. You can visually see the stack, because LRMs will tighten/loosen at 4 points in the flight arc and will NOTICEABLY respond to both mechanics. Literally you are the only person who thinks they don't stack. I might as well be coming here and saying "PPCs cause heat to your victim I think because they did in a previous MW game PROVE ME WRONG or you are invalid! lol!" It's stupid. Thus far not one person has provided a link to anything of value beyond screenshots. I have repeatedly posted stats, reasoning, and as much information as possible. The only argument so far I have gotten is "Nuh-uh, this is what I run and I do greeeeeat." Nobody has made anything close to a compelling case for an Awesome over a Battlemaster, or no-TAG versus TAG, so far except "I did damage in it once." I explain over and over why speed is important - to maintain range - and the people arguing it just blink and go "Nuh-uh I did damage here's my screenshot!" again. Finally to answer your question as to why to take TAG over backup weapons and "just cleaving through them" I'd like to point out that you are going to get WAY more damage out of focused launchers than you are a few medium lasers. This is a guide for how to make LRMs the most effective they can possibly be. And this method will utterly wreck any LRM assault anyone has recommended here with minimal damage, every single time. [ED: Seriously. A Shadow Hawk moving at a hard 90 degree angle with a TAG lock on an assault ends up with a mildly dented Shadow Hawk and a dead assault every single time.]

Yet again, the burden to provide facts is to the person who is making the opinion and trying to make it into fact, in this case yours as you are the creator of this thread and had started with the tag and arti opinion and wish to tote it as fact. Secondly, you state the vast usefulness of BAP to counter ecm, yet still you have not provided any links as to the explanation of these two pieces of equipment and their interaction with one another (You are the maker of this thread and have failed to provide facts to make your thread anything more than your own opinion).

Also, you have provided a video on LRM usage, to back up your opinion. Well someone else has provided a screen shot of all their mechs and their stats from their forum profile, which compiles all their game playing, and not just from one run. Yet yours is the only proof that counts, and the other one is just "taking the best pug match they had and posting it" which as stated earlier here, was not the case. I only want to make sure the info provided is correct, but could care less about you or how well you use LRMs. If this is addressed to new players, then make it new player appropriate, not veteran player or 'I've been around a little while' player appropriate.

Now seeing as I have only posted my OPINION and not facts, I hold to only have an OPINION, where as you are the one toting your opinions as facts with no links to the contrary. SO PLEASE provide the links that explain the interaction of those equipment in further detail, from a thread from a PGI staff member.

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Except 600+ damage is the average on a proper LRM skirmisher, without the downsides.

I am saying there's no other way to run LRMs effectively not because it's my personal preference, but because there really isn't an effective way to run LRMs outside of this.

For the "hyper competitive" groups, for the record, many would call me crazy for even trying to shoehorn LRMs into a niche at all. Most have just abandon them entirely.

Really? Prove it. May I see a screenshot of all your mech stats? I don't believe that you can maintain an average damage of 600+ on your LRM mechs, constantly...

Prove it again. I see talk, but no proving. I don't see any prof that says that no other build will work in the game.

It is a niche weapon, with many different and vast features and options. It has so many different ways to play them that it's hard to master. As I've described before, it's a weapon that can be easy to use, lock and pull the trigger. But to use well takes skill, experience and knowledge. Right now, you are advising only one small facet of the weapon system, to the exclusion of any and all other options or advise.

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Because I haven't given up on LRMs since closed beta and am not blind to their downsides and weaknesses, I'm not qualified to talk LRMs? What?



Quick facts:

• Not running TAG makes your LRM mech bad.
  
• Not running BAP makes your LRM mech bad.
  
• Not running Artemis makes your LRM mech bad.

Again, facts. LRMs are horrendous weapons without every single buff you can stack onto them, bringing them up to "useful niche" at best.




Again, my mission statement is to give newbies uncensored knowledge for how to absolutely maximize their damage done and usefulness to their team.

If you are looking for running sub-par equipment or builds because they're "more fun," this guide isn't for you. That's all.

I've been playing LRMs since I started playing the game back last December. I may have only a years worth of experience, but I continue to use them. I think I also have experience to say some advise and have it be considered. Not just thrown to the side because "I was here longer". We are all qualified to talk about LRMs here. We each have a different style of using them. They are all effective in their own rights.

And, your quick facts, prove it. Prove that no mech can ever run LRMs without those pieces of gear. You can't prove it. You can make an opinionated case in it's favor, but you can't prove that a mech without TAG is ineffective or useless, nor with the other gear either.

Fact: Default LRMs can still be VERY useful in many different roles. They are a unique weapon with lots of different abilities over other weapon types. There are many ways to play them, and I'd say we each play them in a different style.


If you want uncensored information, you would be disagreeing with us (which is fine), without saying we are completely wrong (which is not fine). You want Uncensored information? Include all aspects of LRM use, besides what you feel is "most effective".

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Catapults are bad at LRM boating. Both 'mechs can effectively infight with SRMs about the same. Really we're talking the difference between "lackluster" and "meh" here. I won't argue they both can do SRMs as well.

The only Catapult that is worth getting is the K2.

Point: Both win the "Mediocre chassis" award.



You make the huge mistake of thinking anyone would run the arms on a Battlemaster, when running with a Stalker design. They'd strip them and slap all the guns in the torso.

Ghost Heat keeps the BattleMaster from being better than OK, but it's a decent pugging mech. There's definitely worse options out there. Same with the Stalker, really. I've seen arguments for or against both with most people leaning stalker.

Point: And the runners up to the Mediocre Chassis Award goes to...



I need to start adding a disclaimer to every sentence. When I say "Never run X" I mean "Never run X if you are trying your best to win." If you don't care about winning then sure, you can do whatever.

So, you say the premire LRM mech, that people had problems with for months of this game, is a bad LRM mech? Well, that just threw your credibility out the window...

And the Stalker, which was one shooting people with not just PPC versions but also 70-100 LRM versions, before ghost heat and LRM nerfs came in? Before TAG buffs (no tag on them normally back then)? They still make for good LRM mechs, but you can't leave them defenseless anymore, unlike what people use to do. Not unless you really know what you are doing, or have a good team around you.

So, now you are saying that anyone who disagrees with you are not playing to win?
...

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Oh my Go-- hahahahahhahahahahaha.

The Locust is better than anything because of the model with an AC/10??

You do realize even if you only carry 2 tons of ammo, you can't even max the armor on something that doesn't have enough armor to survive a single heavy hit?

You seem to have misread this. He was saying, in theory, that an AC10 locust is better than a commando. Some people I'm sure can use a Urbanmech like mech very well. People have been doing it with the Spider for a while now. And, as you said, a Locust tends to not even be able to survive a direct hit anyway with full armor, so why need all that armor then? Just... a possible concept...

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

This right here is why I say you should stop giving advice as serious. As a gimmick joke, sure, but "more powerful?" A Commando sucks even and I'm not putting the "Paper cannon that will explode when brushed with a gentle breeze of small lasers" in the "more powerful" category than anything.

My God man. if you really think that's viable, there is no debate to be had.



No argument from me. You think AC/10 Locusts are viable.



Everyone has free will to ignore this advice. If they want access to the best information, they won't.



Here is a man who does not understand the hitboxes at all.



And Awesomes with 4 SRM6s were great in closed beta too.

As a side note, what you just described didn't ever really work anyway. The Raven 4X has been {Scrap} since day 1.

And all of this I do believe is not mentioned in this thread, and so is not related to this conversation in the least. It is a troll move at best.

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Honestly my advice is that new players - brand new players - don't touch LRMs at all. Stick with simple, direct fire weaponry until you've gotten the hang of the game.

If you want to branch out to LRMs, you do so in a package that makes them effective, at which point this guide is here for new users to LRMs exclusively.



I cannot state objective fact as opinion. I've posted the advantages of a TAG and why, for example, you should never be without one. If someone doesn't listen to that, they are making a mistake, but it's theirs to make.

I am here to offer information, not force you to drive my builds.



I am only censoring disagreeing with incorrect information. Such as claims that one can drive an effective LRM boat without TAG. Because you can't.

No matter how good you are or how much you think your build is great, bottom line is a non-Artemis, non-TAG assault will be a waste of a player on your team. It's just how it works out.

So... as far as "New Player Help", this isn't for "New Players"? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of placing it into the new player forums to start with? Or, maybe that should be one of the first sentences of the first post? "If you are new to the game, I recommend one not to use LRMs. However, if you are going to, here are some suggestions for you." Wait. Those "suggestions" are "commands". My bad. This is a Guide, and still belongs in the "Guides and Strategies" forum.

You say one thing, then contradict yourself with your next sentence. "Can not state objective fact as Opinion" when it is an Opinion you are mentioning, then you say "They are making a mistake (if they don't take Tag like how I say)". So, you are right, we are wrong, and you are right. We should not question your athuroity on this subject, nor should we present alternative uses or strategies/tactics to alienate or disrupt you "opinions"... I mean "objective" facts.

You are here to offer information, which forces us to drive your builds or be deemed as incompetent fools.

You are censoring, I mean disagreeing (harshly), with any "information" (opinion/suggestion) other than your own. I drive LRM "mechs", not boats, without TAG all the time. To confuse my LRM designs with those "foolish" boats is a sore mistake one can make on the field of combat. It normally costs the pilot who confuses my mech for a boat with their lives...

Tell that to many of my mechs, such as my Stalker and Battlemaster. I guess it's a good thing I'm not much of an Assault pilot, and far more of a med/light pilot who occasionally ventures into the heavy range...

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Dear lord Tesunie. You have so much wrong about TAG I have absolutely no idea. Where are you getting these 25% modifiers and such? My sources are things like Smurfys which are kept up to date, you are quite literally talking out of your backside.

Like scratching off the faster target lock. ANYONE can go try this right now and see that it works.

You have all your facts wrong. Plus you mention stuff like 54kph Shadow Hawks.

I don't think there's any salvaging your opinion, but please, do not infect this completely inaccurate data on newbies.

EDIT: Go watch that video and take note how the 'mechs I'm shooting are hit, and how they are hit when the other LRM boats hit them. I didn't post it to prove how badass I am, I posted it to prove why the combo is important. Almost all of the damage goes RIGHT into the CT, not even impacting the side torsos. Every time. The non-combo missiles hit everything lightly on a whole side.

It works. I swear to you whatever you think you heard, you're wrong.

Lord Tesunie... I like that. Address me in the proper tone, peasant!

If I have so much wrong about TAG, from what I had last read in a post developed by a Dev, then please update me with an appropriate link. I too use Smurfy to create builds and other such information. It does not relate the interaction between the two pieces of tech as far as I know nor can find. If it is there, please link. Otherwise, I'm considering what I read here on the forums in a thread I can not find any longer, to remain as true as I can recall it.

Artemis improves your lock on speed. I do not believe TAG increases that farther.

54kph? I said no exact speed of my Shadowhawk. Who, sir, is blowing facts out their backside now? And yes, I mentioned my slow, 50ish kph Shadowhawk. It runs really well actually. Thank you for even asking.

"but please, do not infect this completely inaccurate data on newbies." One can say the same upon thee as well. Where is your confirmed proof to say otherwise? If I am wrong, which is possible, I'd like to know where I am wrong. However, I'm not going to just "take your word" for it, when I already feel that many of your opinions are off base and too biased for a "new players" thread.

To address your edit, I will NOT watch you video again. It proves very little to your argument, besides that your tactics can and do work, which I never said they couldn't nor did I say they didn't. Also, sometimes, especially with XL mechs, it might be a faster, easier kill to rip a side torso out. Even if they don't have XL engine, it might still be good to rip a side off, and deny them (most mechs) half their weapon payload in the process. Some mechs, you might even take all their weapons. A stated use for NONE Artemis LRMs, as mentioned before...

I swear to you, whatever you think you heard, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying it's not the only way to use LRMs, and there are other, very effective, ways to use LRMs as well besides your own opinionated advice, which isn't overall bad advise. However, it's better advise for players who aren't green out of training and has had some experience with the game in general.

[Victor Morson]

The wall of text has climbed too high to bother with complete replies anymore, because this is ridiculous. I'm pulling my information about the game straight from the game, smurfys, and occasionally the currently updated MW:O wiki.

You're pulling your data out of "I heard somewhere but I totally don't remember where." And you expect me to justify my position? Which is clearly demonstrable and backed by every credible MW:O source?

I really wish MW:O had the ability to form 1v1 lobbies to settle some points, I really, really do. Right now all I can do is turn to the new people reading this firestorm and tell them to watch videos by the best players in the game. See who's advice they are more in line with.

Then make your own decision.

PS: A video showing target grouping improvements is far more useful in gauging something than static end of round screenshots, or even score screens. Just watch the damage indicators and try to see what I'm talking about: Almost every shot fired went into a single location from the TAG+Artemis boat, not the case with the others. Keep in mind this is a particular good demonstration, because the other LRM boat is using TAG (my tag), so you are literally seeing the grouping difference between Artemis and no Artemis.

EDIT: If players are wondering what units are the best, I recommend you guys start with anybody in Merc Star. It's a collection of units so you can see more than one POV, and every one of them is among the best in the game. A good place to start, though you will have trouble finding much to do with LRMs outside of their pug streams.

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 December 2013 - 10:30 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 11 December 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

If I have so much wrong about TAG, from what I had last read in a post developed by a Dev, then please update me with an appropriate link.

Please link me to the post you're talking about. I can't disprove something that doesn't even have a basis. Show me the basis and I'll address this happily.

Tesunie, on 11 December 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

I too use Smurfy to create builds and other such information. It does not relate the interaction between the two pieces of tech as far as I know nor can find. If it is there, please link. Otherwise, I'm considering what I read here on the forums in a thread I can not find any longer, to remain as true as I can recall it.

"Please disprove what I read in the forum one time that I cannot find anywhere and nobody but me remembers."

Actually accurate and verified information.

At A Glance

• 50% bonus to missile tracking strength
  
• Target lock takes 25% longer to decay
  
• Decreases missile lock on time by 50%
  
• Must be mounted on an energy Hardpoint
  
• Displays an icon (a small crosshair symbol) above the target's red triangle icon in HUD to display to team-mates that target is being lased.
  
• Effect lasts for 1 second after each laser "hit".
  
• Generates no heat, recommend using continuous fire.
  
• TAG completely nullifies ECM (One target only) if the beam is held on the target from beyond the ECM's range.
  
• TAG effect HUD Icon

NARC

• Provides the same bonuses to accuracy and targeting as the Narc Beacon
  
• Using TAG and NARC together decreases weapon lock on time by 75% ^[3]
  
• Using TAG and NARC together increases missile tracking strength by 75% ^[4]
  
• TAG requires a beam be held on target while the Narc requires you to hit your target with a missile

Artemis IV

• Provides different bonuses than the Artemis IV FCS system
  
• The tracking strength bonus and Artemis can stack to be 2X the strength of normal radar
  
• Using TAG and NARC together decreases weapon lock on time by 75% ^[5]
  
• Using TAG and NARC together increases missile tracking strength by 75% ^[6]

Tesunie, on 11 December 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Artemis improves your lock on speed. I do not believe TAG increases that farther.

Tesunie, on 11 December 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

54kph? I said no exact speed of my Shadowhawk. Who, sir, is blowing facts out their backside now? And yes, I mentioned my slow, 50ish kph Shadowhawk. It runs really well actually. Thank you for even asking.

Again, new players to MechWarrior, this man runs a 50kph Shadow Hawk. Take his advise accordingly.

Tesunie, on 11 December 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

"but please, do not infect this completely inaccurate data on newbies." One can say the same upon thee as well. Where is your confirmed proof to say otherwise? If I am wrong, which is possible, I'd like to know where I am wrong. However, I'm not going to just "take your word" for it, when I already feel that many of your opinions are off base and too biased for a "new players" thread.

haha. See above.

Tesunie, on 11 December 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

To address your edit, I will NOT watch you video again. It proves very little to your argument, besides that your tactics can and do work, which I never said they couldn't nor did I say they didn't.

It demonstrates repeatedly the difference between TAG + Artemis (CT exclusive hits) and TAG w/o Artemis (Broad chest-to-arm hits.) So yeah, it does kind show more than you realize.

Oh yeah, it also shows TAG speeding lock time up to almost 0.

So yeah.

Tesunie, on 11 December 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Also, sometimes, especially with XL mechs, it might be a faster, easier kill to rip a side torso out. Even if they don't have XL engine, it might still be good to rip a side off, and deny them (most mechs) half their weapon payload in the process. Some mechs, you might even take all their weapons. A stated use for NONE Artemis LRMs, as mentioned before...

I swear to you, whatever you think you heard, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying it's not the only way to use LRMs, and there are other, very effective, ways to use LRMs as well besides your own opinionated advice, which isn't overall bad advise. However, it's better advise for players who aren't green out of training and has had some experience with the game in general.

50 kph Shadow Hawks.
AC 10 Locusts that "can work."
Information based on a thread only you remember stated as fact to be disproven.
"TAG doesn't improve lock on speed."

You lose, good day sir.

[ Now stop spreading made up rumors from your own memory to newbies, will you? Not to mention the bad advice. ]

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 December 2013 - 10:44 PM.

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

The wall of text has climbed too high to bother with complete replies anymore, because this is ridiculous. I'm pulling my information about the game straight from the game, smurfys, and occasionally the currently updated MW:O wiki.

You're pulling your data out of "I heard somewhere but I totally don't remember where." And you expect me to justify my position? Which is clearly demonstrable and backed by every credible MW:O source?

I really wish MW:O had the ability to form 1v1 lobbies to settle some points, I really, really do. Right now all I can do is turn to the new people reading this firestorm and tell them to watch videos by the best players in the game. See who's advice they are more in line with.

Then make your own decision.

PS: A video showing target grouping improvements is far more useful in gauging something than static end of round screenshots, or even score screens. Just watch the damage indicators and try to see what I'm talking about: Almost every shot fired went into a single location from the TAG+Artemis boat, not the case with the others. Keep in mind this is a particular good demonstration, because the other LRM boat is using TAG (my tag), so you are literally seeing the grouping difference between Artemis and no Artemis.

The burden of proof is in your hands. Treat me like I was some new player then. I "don't" know if Artemis and Tag work as you direct. Prove to me otherwise. If you can prove it to me, then any "new player" reading this will have to agree with you then, won't they?

I'm pulling information (which I'm not trying to overly prove to any new players, this isn't my guide) from a dev forum post. However, I can not find this post any longer, and any searches with "Tag" and "Artemis" doesn't seem to bring it up, as it searches for more than just thread titles, or the result I am looking for is buried under tons of false results I don't want. So, YES. I want you to BACK UP your POSITION with A credible MW:O source. You seem to be "so knowledgeable" and "readily have the information at my fingertips". If I'm wrong, which is entirely possible, I'd like to see this hard data for myself. This way, I will know for certain that what you say is completely true and I can adjust myself/stance/guides accordingly.

This only became a firestorm because you yourself stated that we all were so horribly wrong and that your way was the only way. Maybe if you acknowledged that our tactics are viable, but maybe not as effective as yours (that wording would have been nicer), it wouldn't have gotten so far. But, instead of giving any of us any benefit of the doubt that we might know what we are talking about, you have told us how horrible we are and how we are all wrong and how everyone should ignore us. THEN, you go and take information I did not read in THIS thread on another poster, and made the "wall of text" longer and the "firestorm hotter" with it...
Also, did it occur to you that, out of the people posting in this thread, there are 4-5 converts waiting to be converted to your way of thinking? Or that, maybe, the 4-5 people might have a point to what they say? It's not just one of us kicking up dust, but several of us. (And no, I did not call anyone in here, and do not know most of these people.) Could you, possibly, give our tactics and concepts a bit of a benefit of the doubt, and that it might, just maybe, possibly work? Even if you disagree with our stance, could you, maybe, say that as much as you might disagree it is possible that these other uses could work in certain situations? None of us are saying your position and opinions are not good, or that they can't work. We know better. We are just saying it's not the only way things can work is all. There are other ways one can use LRMs beyond the ways you mention here. Many of us are also leery of the "boating" concept this thread has implied, and that mixed with "new players". We don't see this as a good mix for the most part, even if the points have merit.

I do hope that they take ALL the advice in this thread into consideration. I hope they find their own path in the game, and not try to play a path either one of us dictates. I'd love it if they (one of these supposed new players) found a whole new way to play LRMs that neither one of us ever even considered...

You are the one who said "An LRM mech should easily see average scores of 600+ damage", did you not? A single video is no more proof of that than a single end of match screen shot. Only your total, average, stats can say if "600+ damage" really is your "average" damage with an LRM based mech. I average (if you bothered to look) on my LRM quickdraw (4H) 284 damage per match. This includes matches where I may not have done so well, and matches when I first owned the mech, figuring out a nice custom for it. It's got (as my memory recalls), 4 med lasers and LRM15, LRM10, LRM5. My Battlemaster (1S) has 272 damage average per match, once more including some matches without LRMs (I ran it a couple of time with lots of SRMs to see how it worked, then changed to LRMs again because I like LRMs). It's got 4 med lasers as well as it's LRM payload. My slow Shadowhawk (5M I believe) with the AC20 and LRMs has 274 damage average per match.
These stats, if you wish, means that for good and bad matches, I have done around 300 damage with them. Some matches I might do a lot less. Other matches I might spike up to 600+ damage. I do not claim to be any kind of master of this game, nor elite pilot.

PS: How do you know if the "other LRM boat" was using Artemis or not?

[RapidFire7]

Has anyone heard the saying "everyone is entitled to their own opinion?"

If this thread was truly about helping newbies out with LRM mechs, we should stop insulting each other and provide different opinions without indirectly calling the other person stupid or such.

Everyone plays differently and there is never going to be one single way to make an effective LRM mech, unlike the Meta, which is very specific.

PS - I should say that you guys have put some really good ideas in this thread, the discussion part is always the one that newbies will find best to read because there's the whole "how?" and "why?" aspects of everything.

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 11 December 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

The burden of proof is in your hands. Treat me like I was some new player then. I "don't" know if Artemis and Tag work as you direct. Prove to me otherwise. If you can prove it to me, then any "new player" reading this will have to agree with you then, won't they?

I just did. I linked you resources. I've shown you videos. All you've done is go "I READ A THREAD I CAN'T FIND LOL." Why do you think I should spend time locating and disproving something that you've literally pulled out of nowhere?

I'm not treating you like a new player. Most new players are looking to learn and not just make up or "remember" baseless facts and then claim everyone has to prove them wrong.

PS: Average damage doesn't even mean much, so that too is not worth arguing. It's about effective damage. That's what TAG+Artemis gives you.

EDIT: I'd like to remind new people that what is largely going on here is a demographic that detests the meta, and wants to play a game without any sort of meta, and thus try to steer as many people away from it as possible for that end. Some of them might honestly believe a lot of what they're saying, but many are probably full aware what they are doing is simply inferior. But that's the game they want to play, so they want you to play that game too.

Information I've posted is to help new people sort through this mud and get honest, accurate information from the higher levels of the game. Again, LRMs are 2nd tier as a platform in general, but when they are used - this is how they have to be used to be truly effective.

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 December 2013 - 11:12 PM.

[xMintaka]

On another note...

Thanks for this guide. I build my ON1-VA into an LRM boat, originally with 2x ALRM-20 and 2x ALRM-5's, coupled with a Tag. Works rather well.

Just changed down to 2x ALRM-15's plus the LRM-5's so that it fires one big ball of doom, not sure on the difference in effectiveness yet. All I know is it's allowed me to shoehorn a LLas in there, which helps immeasurably for deterring lights.


I don't agree 100% on all things, but otherwise this has helped me out a great deal. Notably, the speed issue. I can see where you are coming from, but it's just not that big an issue so far. My Centurion-D runs at ~90kph with two LRM15's, and doesn't have nearly as much success as the Orion.

Edited by Lunatech, 11 December 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Victor Morson]

The Cent 9D is the 2nd best missile boat in the game I think personally; 2 LRM15 with a TAG in the center torso makes for a pretty durable LRM 'mech. Jump jets on the Shadow Hawk are nice of course, but that's still a solid little LRM setup.

That's a good setup for the Orion though, there's a couple decent missile hardpoints on those things.

[Novakaine]

Beware of falling objects.
I Novakaine approves this message.
"Rocket Rocketeers Rocket Forth!"

[Charons Little Helper]

Lunatech, on 11 December 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

On another note...

Thanks for this guide. I build my ON1-VA into an LRM boat, originally with 2x ALRM-20 and 2x ALRM-5's, coupled with a Tag. Works rather well.

Just changed down to 2x ALRM-15's plus the LRM-5's so that it fires one big ball of doom, not sure on the difference in effectiveness yet. All I know is it's allowed me to shoehorn a LLas in there, which helps immeasurably for deterring lights.

I actually think that the Orion M makes a somewhat better missile boat. Both can get the 40 missile blob (20+15+5 on the M) - but the M has an extra energy point and (more importantly) it's not all in the arms. That way if you lose an arm you aren't as crippled.

My M has the LRM 40 with tag & 2 large lasers. The 2nd large laser is enough to have a shot at dealing with lights - plus it's handy to the extra oomph to precision shot - finishing off damaged parts of mechs.

[Burke IV]

Thats cause the VA isnt a LRM mech, is a SRM face smasher. Im not sure any of the orions are designed to have any more LRMs than a single large shoulder mount.

[Kjudoon]

Burke IV, on 12 December 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Thats cause the VA isnt a LRM mech, is a SRM face smasher. Im not sure any of the orions are designed to have any more LRMs than a single large shoulder mount.

I regularly use ON1-VA's as a superior missile platform. I prefer 40 tubes and enough secondary weaponry that you can do something IF you run out. I also do recommend Artemis even IF you don't have LOS, but would not recommend TAG for true indirect support that uses cover. BAP if you like it.

Of course, one thing never discussed in this thread is how important situational awareness and map placement is. Knowing how to monitor your firing lines, where safe places to fire from are, working to keeping enemy mechs in range and with clean firing solutions is incredibly important. An LRM pilot must have a better feel for a map and hard point placement than everybody else save for maybe your scouts.

Of course, I know I'm the minority opinion on that compared to those who find LRM pilots inferior or think of them as just brawlers with range limitations and slow weapons.

Edited by Kjudoon, 12 December 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Victor Morson, on 11 December 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Please link me to the post you're talking about. I can't disprove something that doesn't even have a basis. Show me the basis and I'll address this happily.

Actually accurate and verified information.

At A Glance

• 50% bonus to missile tracking strength
  
• Target lock takes 25% longer to decay
  
• Decreases missile lock on time by 50%
  
• Must be mounted on an energy Hardpoint
  
• Displays an icon (a small crosshair symbol) above the target's red triangle icon in HUD to display to team-mates that target is being lased.
  
• Effect lasts for 1 second after each laser "hit".
  
• Generates no heat, recommend using continuous fire.
  
• TAG completely nullifies ECM (One target only) if the beam is held on the target from beyond the ECM's range.
  
• TAG effect HUD Icon

NARC

• Provides the same bonuses to accuracy and targeting as the Narc Beacon
  
• Using TAG and NARC together decreases weapon lock on time by 75% ^[3]
  
• Using TAG and NARC together increases missile tracking strength by 75% ^[4]
  
• TAG requires a beam be held on target while the Narc requires you to hit your target with a missile

Artemis IV

• Provides different bonuses than the Artemis IV FCS system
  
• The tracking strength bonus and Artemis can stack to be 2X the strength of normal radar
  
• Using TAG and NARC together decreases weapon lock on time by 75% ^[5]
  
• Using TAG and NARC together increases missile tracking strength by 75% ^[6]

It demonstrates repeatedly the difference between TAG + Artemis (CT exclusive hits) and TAG w/o Artemis (Broad chest-to-arm hits.) So yeah, it does kind show more than you realize.

Oh yeah, it also shows TAG speeding lock time up to almost 0.
So yeah.

OK, tried to condense your last post to the stuff that would be more related to my own, I hope I got it right.

First of all, I see you finally posted a link to back up your opinion, it was much appreciated and informative. However it does not say that it tightens the grouping of the missiles any nor provides a decrease in lock time when combined with arti. Now, having used a Centurion in the past with 20 or so arti LRMs (stopped using it sense the Hawk came out), I know how the system works as a solo piece. I have done the same thing with LOS (Line Of Sight for new players) against a Stalker, one on one, and cored him like in your video, without breaching the side armors, just like the behavior of the Arti LRMs in your video.

Now so you know, if it is true and it tightens the grouping even more and all the other benefits that you are stating, then you might have me sold on the tag system and my next question would be how do I set it up for continues fire. I'm more so looking for confirmation to what you are saying as the Arti groups up and behaves like stated above without tag, and earlier threads made by PGI members have stated that the two system doesn't behave like this and don't work with each other. You will have to forgive me if I tend to believe that more then you, but my information is a little out dated, so you might be correct (thus the request for a link to a thread/post/whatever to the information that tells us they are compatible.

As a final quick note, I think you should take other peoples advice and leave the name calling and snide remake out of this thread, even if that means you need to walk away from the computer for a few or re-read your own post before posting it, to try to filter it our some. And yes that does go to the other people who are also name calling and such in here also. If they do, the best thing to do would be to either not respond, or not retaliate with more name calling and such.

Also, you might want to edit the first post and put that link in where you have the THY MUST HAVE TAG commandment.

Edit:PS the info is wrong unless they did a recent update to remove it, as tag targeting a mech in ECM will allow that mech to be targeted and get locks, but the lock will still be slowed by ECM as though you where in the ECM "sweet spot" where you could target and lock...

Edited by Nathan Bloodguard, 12 December 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

That site you posted has some errors in it, as the Artemis described in there does no benefits to streaks. Artemis does benefit streaks in the form of faster lock time. This is the second error I have found so I don't know how sound the rest of its information is. The link is still appreciated, but would still prefer one made from a PGI member, preferable in their own forums, as that will be the most accurate information that one could get.

Edit: If BAP does as advertised in that link, then it would be worth taking for the increased 25% to sensor range, however I have never heard of it doing so before. It also apparently increases ECM range when combined with it, this I have never heard of before and think might be in error, but then again it might be true but doesn't sound right (kinda like the sensor range boost module, it doesn't increase the range of BAP or ECM any, just sensor range....thus I think it sounds off) PS: Last I had heard of course.

Edited by Nathan Bloodguard, 12 December 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Burke IV]

Isnt narc virtually obselete as it is? The only proper use for it is on a spotter mech for a missile boat that has no artemis, because artys effect always over rides narc. Wheres the manual PGI? Im sure i read that artemis always cancels narc.

Edit: altho i say obselete, its only because you cant count on narc in pugs so everybody takes artemis. Teamwork is op or so i heard

Edited by Burke IV, 12 December 2013 - 09:36 AM.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Burke IV, on 12 December 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Isnt narc virtually obselete as it is? The only proper use for it is on a spotter mech for a missile boat that has no artemis, because artys effect always over rides narc. Wheres the manual PGI? Im sure i read that artemis always cancels narc.

Edit: altho i say obselete, its only because you cant count on narc in pugs so everybody takes artemis. Teamwork is op or so i heard

Unless they changed something, NARC is near useless and not worth the weight or cost. It will give everyone a target ability without Line Of Sight for 30 seconds unless it is jammed by ECM. A flight of LRMs are likely to get there in that time, but only about 1 maybe 2 depending on the distance. Narc takes a missile slot, and also requires ammo. Between that and a Tag system (which works similarly without ammo and weights less then NARC in the end) I would always recommend a tag out of the two. Artemis is also relatively unaffected by NARC for sure, and TAG is debatable rather it helps it any with the only exception of cutting through ECM for lock on purposes (Not lock time).

I am currently working on getting the OP (Original Poster) to post a link leading us to confirmation of his 'findings' on the interaction of tag and Artemis missiles, along with BAP and its interaction with missiles/ECM/sensor ranges. Eventually I will give up and contact a moderator for clarification on this matter. The link he has currently posted is useful, but I have at least found two known errors in the Artemis and TAG sections of it, so I wonder what else is wrong...

Edited by Nathan Bloodguard, 12 December 2013 - 11:10 AM.