474 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

I'll admit, I'm using UAVs to speed my XP gathering up a lot. It's made a HUGE increase to the mount of XP, and GXP, I can earn per match and given I was ranking 'mechs for a few hours, I was taking one on every drop.

So perhaps I should have really said as much. I do highly endorse

For a whole 10 general XP the whole 3 hours you put into sunday.... really might want to address THAT part of what I was talking about, cause I rather doubt you earned 10 GXP in 3 hours gameplay.
(this is not meant to mock, but you are making yourself look silly with that bit, and I am rather curious about what you actually meant)

[Victor Morson]

I am serious, I started my leveling run with about 50k GXP, ended with 60k GXP and re-invested that 10k GXP to finish off the last 'mech.

Again, premium time + UAV is largely responsible, I've seen jumps as high as 500 mech XP per round with proper usage.

I will disclaim that this is give or take a few hundred GXP.

EDIT: Also I wasn't sticking around until the end of matches. Die-quit-swapmech-repeat. XP grinding day for me, basically.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 December 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I am serious, I started my leveling run with about 50k GXP, ended with 60k GXP and re-invested that 10k GXP to finish off the last 'mech.

Again, premium time + UAV is largely responsible, I've seen jumps as high as 500 mech XP per round with proper usage.

I will disclaim that this is give or take a few hundred GXP.

EDIT: Also I wasn't sticking around until the end of matches. Die-quit-swapmech-repeat. XP grinding day for me, basically.

So a typo on your first claim?

Edit: and using a strategy that adds up (for new players) to suicide farming.
A tactic outright banned by PGI I might add.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 10 December 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[Koniving]

Buckminster, on 10 December 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Wait... when did you go Steiner?

I'm a spy! Actually sometime soon I'll be participating in a Steiner scout lance for screenshots on Lordred's thread. Given the request for Steiner colors I picked up some flags from my inventory and threw this on.

[Ngamok]

Koniving, on 10 December 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I'm a spy! Actually sometime soon I'll be participating in a Steiner scout lance for screenshots on Lordred's thread. Given the request for Steiner colors I picked up some flags from my inventory and threw this on.

Welcome to the Federated Commonwealth.

[aniviron]

I like the format, but I think some of the points are debatable. Artemis can be hit-and-miss. Defying ghost heat is actually a pretty solid idea in some situations, even if it's bad in others; but when you have a limited timeframe to hit an unaware target, I'm firing all 60 LRMs in one go. That's gonna hurt. I also agree that faster is better for most LRM boats, but there are some pretty viable platforms like the AWS-8R that can't do 88kph, but still do quite well.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

Edit: and using a strategy that adds up (for new players) to suicide farming.
A tactic outright banned by PGI I might add.

That wasn't suicide farming, just aggressive playing. There's a big difference. I wasn't even rushing in alone or anything, just at the front every time.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

That wasn't suicide farming, just aggressive playing.

And for the new player that is different...... how?

I think you might want to move into the guides section, where the NOT new players are looking for help.

[Victor Morson]

aniviron, on 10 December 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

I like the format, but I think some of the points are debatable. Artemis can be hit-and-miss. Defying ghost heat is actually a pretty solid idea in some situations, even if it's bad in others; but when you have a limited timeframe to hit an unaware target, I'm firing all 60 LRMs in one go. That's gonna hurt. I also agree that faster is better for most LRM boats, but there are some pretty viable platforms like the AWS-8R that can't do 88kph, but still do quite well.

AWS-8R is horribly outclassed, the BattleMaster is an infinitely superior missile assault.

And the point with Ghost Heat is to design a 'mech so you can fire all 50-60 missiles in one go without Ghost Heat, rather than worrying about chain firing it.

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

And for the new player that is different...... how?

We are way off on a derail right now talking about UAVs and XP gathering techniques.

Let's put this back to LRMs.

Adv. Target Decay: Highly recommended first module for pilots who really like LRMs. That stands. It's no more expensive than other modules, and frankly I'm sorry we've gone off on this tangent about the best ways to grind XP.

EDIT: And again, for the record, being at the front line in every engagement in a pug is not suicide farming.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Adv. Target Decay: Highly recommended first module for pilots who really like LRMs. That stands. It's no more expensive than other modules, and frankly I'm sorry we've gone off on this tangent about the best ways to grind XP.

and yet, still not really what NEW PLAYERS are looking for.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

EDIT: And again, for the record, being at the front line in every engagement in a pug is not suicide farming.

It is - for the NEW PLAYERS who, are largely still trying to figure out how the game works, no?




You DO realize there is a portion of the guides section where this would really be useful that is not in the NEW PLAYER portion of the forums, especially as a NEW PLAYER would not necessarily be working on mastering a missile boat mech?

FACT: NEW PLAYERS are not going to have ANY modules.
FACT: the people flooding the Guides section of the forums are frequently asking questions like that - or how to build a missile boat mech.

FACT: your advice is useless: to NEW PLAYERS, opinionated, and not always right, even to NOT new players.

Have a nice day Vic.

[Victor Morson]

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

and yet, still not really what NEW PLAYERS are looking for.

It is - for the NEW PLAYERS who, are largely still trying to figure out how the game works, no?

I don't see the problem. I fully recommend new players pick up UAVs, have so repeatedly, and I have zero problems with people trying to rank up their 'mechs running at the front of their group. Somebody has to run at the front of the group and make first contact, so why not you?

The only reason I even mention it is the normal tactic is "Let the other guy do it and hang back."

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

You DO realize there is a portion of the guides section where this would really be useful that is not in the NEW PLAYER portion of the forums, especially as a NEW PLAYER would not necessarily be working on mastering a missile boat mech?

FACT: NEW PLAYERS are not going to have ANY modules.
FACT: the people flooding the Guides section of the forums are frequently asking questions like that - or how to build a missile boat mech.
FACT: your advice is useless: to NEW PLAYERS, opinionated, and not always right, even to NOT new players.

Have a nice day Vic.

If a new player is interested in using LRMs, they should read this guide first. Obviously they won't have the latest modules to start, but through a guide like this, they can plan where they want to go.

If they are really enjoying LRMs they should buy Adv. Target Decay at the first opportunity. I stand by that.

[Tesunie]

Someone gone crazy with the quotes? Unfortunately, this forces me to respond to each quote as well...

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Then you are bad with LRMs. There is no middle ground on this.

LRMs are for killing. If you take such a heavy, large, ammo hungry weapon for any other purpose you're already off track before you even begin.

Then, I present to you my mech stats for your viewing. You take a guess which ones are the mechs I use LRMs in? And, I'd like to mention, I'm almost always PUGing. I'm rarely in any groups.

Spoiler

I wont say I'm the greatest mechwarrior in the game, but I find I am far more effective with my LRMs than I am with other weapons.

All weapons are for causing damage and trying to kill when possible. However, that does not mean to say that it is the only purpose or role for all weapons. A weapon can be used defensively as much offensively, and how you set it up will depend upon how you use it. LRMs are not as large and heavy and ammo hungry as you seem to make them out to be. A single LRM5 launcher doesn't weigh that much, and a single ton of ammo for a single LRM5 launcher can go a decent time. Now, I'm not saying it can't get heavy, and it can't be ammo hungry, but it doesn't always mean so.

Uses for LRMs beyond damage and kills:
- Suppression. Use the LRMs to force people back into cover. The Incoming Missile alert fails to inform you how many missiles are coming, and if a single LRM5 can keep someone in cover a bit longer for me to flank them (maybe) among other tactical assists, then it might be worth it.
- AMS disposal. What if I'm in a team, and I had the extra tonnage to place a single LRM5 with 1 ton ammo. I could use this on a heavy AMS team/mech and just work on depleting their ammo. This way, when the real LRM mechs start to shoot, the enemy no longer has as much AMS protection. It's a possibility, is it not?
- Range/Reach/Obstructed view/Support. I could use a small amount of LRM launchers to support a closer in build for a range supplement. This way, I can use cover as I approach for my bigger weapons, while still supporting my team for damage till I can help out better. If you have a whole lance of mechs set up in such a fashion, a few small launchers on a group of mechs makes it so everyone can help each other out, line of sight hindered or not.

I'm sure other people can devise more ways to use it as well.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Yes you do. If you're carrying a light number of LRMs, you're just feeding AMS systems and achieving nothing but gimping your 'mech, and by extension, your team. If your main mode of fire is indirect you need even more LRMs & ammo, as lightly scattered small numbers of LRMS do almost nothing but a tickle.

I'm not talking about my main mode of damage, but as a support to compliment my other weapons. I talk about it's indirect fire as a way to support a team when out of position to help otherwise. It is always advisable to try and get line of sight to a target, but you can't always get it, and sometimes it is safer/better to stay hidden and let your team do what they can do better than you can.

(PS: For Artemis, there is still a bug going on with it where it provides all it's bonuses to your LRMs, weather you are in dirtect line of sight to your target or not. This is a known bug that I have not heard of being fixed yet. This information is old and it may have been corrected without my knowledge in the past few patches.)

The idea sometimes is to work as a team, and not as an individual. My biggest argument/Disagreement with this post is the "commandment" part, which implies that these are "must do"s. There are other ways to run the LRM system. There was a reason in lore/books/TT that LRMs was so popular and on almost every mech to some extent.

As a well coordinated team, or even a PUG group that just works well together, a loadout where everyone has a few launchers can quickly mount it's damage on a foe. This can make a target weakened before they even get a chance to really see you, making it easier for a team to take down designated targets. Even when fired indirectly, my spread of missiles is going to help to drive the enemy back into cover, try to break lock with my teammate (who might be brawling or dodging their attacks) and could prevent damage to an ally. It also can help a mech that is too concentrated on dodging (some light mechs) to accurately attack still be of help, as LRMs can still do damage consistently, and the slower target being harassed by the light now also is being hit by LRMs.

Damage does and can still add up over time.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

For one, TAG should always be priority over backup weapons. An LRM 'mech without TAG is a terrible LRM 'mech, incapable of breaking ECM bubbles or hitting fast movers.

Backup weapons are simply not worthwhile unless you can bring enough firepower to make a difference. Pretty much that limits your option to the BattleMaster, because there's not enough tonnage and space on the faster, more useful missile boats to mount them.

Remember, a few extra tons of LRM ammo = A dead 'mech
A few medium lasers = Something to make you feel better that ultimately accomplishes nothing. It's better you have the speed to get back to your own line, pug or premade alike.

I have not had TAG on my mechs in a while now. I'd much rather have a damaging weapon on that slot, but other people are different. I find I'd rather have 4 med lasers to defend myself, rather than no med lasers and only a TAG. TAG also wont help if you run out of LRMs, which a lot of non-assault/heavy mechs will find themselves doing most times.

TAG is a playstyle choice, and I recommend people experiment and try every weapon in the game at least once. I find I don't stay in direct line of fire enough for TAG to help, and a TAGed target inside an ECM field is still hard to "lock" onto to even send in missiles. Instead, I prefer to either close into med laser long range and do some damage and hide, or blind fire the LRMs onto unsuspecting snipers not paying attention, ECM or not. If you are standing still thinking ECM is protecting you from my LRMs, I'll make sure you find out otherwise.

The problem is, you confused "missile boat" for "LRM user". A boated mech is great in it's niche. Get it outside of that, and it's dead. I feel a balanced build is best most times, as it helps compensate for the weaknesses. You can still use LRMs to effect, then close in with your "backup weapons" to finish a job, instead of being the last mech standing, and having everyone charge into you and you being useless at that point. My Hunchback has 30 LRM tubes, with 5 med lasers still. I can do decent LRM damage, as well as close in if needed. This means I need less LRM ammo overall, as I typically use the LRMs to deal damage as I close into a target. I try to keep them 300m away, so I can hit them with everything I have.

A few med lasers has been the difference between defeat and a victory for my team before. Don't underestimate other weapon systems on a mech. If med lasers are too heavy, then even a set of small lasers is good for if you run out of ammo...

Remember, a few extra tons of LRM ammo = useless if someone is within 180m of your mech.
A few Med Lasers = I can defend myself if someone gets too close.

(PS: TAG does not "help" hitting smaller, faster targets all that much. Your missiles don't fly any faster with TAG than without.)

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Worst thing anyone ever says about LRMs: "It's a softening weapon" "It's to peel armor for my teammates" "I weaken them up for others."

BULL.

LRMs are an extremely heavy, and extremely large weapon system that takes everything out of your 'mech. Now, is it good to use one like this? Sure, while you're getting in position to get that LOS+TAG+ARTEMIS triple combo.

But at the end of the day the only way LRMs are justified is if they do serious damage and outright kill targets through concentrated, focused damage. And for that, you need Artemis. There's no exceptions.

It is one of the MANY uses of LRMs. It can open a piece of side armor, making it so an ally can disable that XL engine in there. Unlike other weapon systems, you seem to forget that you can't pin point the damage for LRMs where you want them. They will land and damage anything that they happen to hit.

Once more, you confused LRMs with the need to boat. If you are dedicated everything in a mech to LRMs and only LRMs, then that is your choice. LRMs are still not as heavy, nor do as much damage, as a direct line of sight fired AC/PPC. Even in direct fire from 300m, it is still possible for your target to shoot you back, and then duck into cover before your own LRMs can even hit. Tag and Artemis does not make your missiles travel any faster, and the faster moving projectiles from a Ballistic style weapon will probably win. LRMs are not as heavy as Ballistics, but LRMs will eat through more ammo faster. Consider them AoE weapons.

You can't "concentrate, focus damage" on one component of a mech, even with Artemis. However, Artemis does help your LRMs to land more to center mass. What you are talking about is still boating LRMs. I'm suggesting using them as a support system, as well as even a main system. There are more uses than you are summarizing here.

Artemis, I find, is a choice. It can be helpful, but LRMs can work just as well without them. I can compensate the lack of Artemis with more launchers, more ammo, more heatsinks, and/or more back up weapons (or even TAG). There are ways to play LRMs with and without Artemis.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

This doesn't make sense. "BAP will help prevent an ECM mech from shutting your missiles down, so you should take 1.5 tons of backup weapons [ Ed: A single streak sans ammo!? ] instead to deal with it."

Reality: Without BAP an ECM Spider runs past you for 1 second. Every missile you have in the air drops like a rock. If an ECM 'mech walks near you, you can't lock at all without BAP. Remember just because something is close to you, that's not what you want to shoot ; your job as an LRM 'mech is to evade those lights and keep pouring fire on your main target.

On top of that BAP offers targeting bonuses, but again the main reason is so something entering your proximity won't turn off all your guns. You cannot get away with skimping on BAP or your 'mech is bad.

I haven't used BAP too much yet, I shall admit. On my LRM mechs, they can/might help me shoot at other targets farther away instead of being shut down from ECM. However, blocking ECM doesn't help me against the ECM mech, unless I'm in a team who will come help me, or another nearby LRM mech can send LRMs to help me. Personally, between the two options, I'd rather sacrifice some LRM capabilities to equip more back up weapons, be it lasers, ACs or even SRMs. This lets me be able to defend myself from ECM mechs, maybe even kill them.

Your analogy of the Spider is... wrong. ECM does not make all LRMs in the air "drop like rocks". It will disrupt your lock, but your missiles shall still home in on the last place they had locked onto. Depending upon distance, it could be too late and the missile are already on target. As for the rest, read my link? I have that covered there in more depth.

Of course, if you suggest replacing BAP for close range SSRMs, that would be your own folly. I said no such thing. There is only one mech that can't take anything other than missiles, and that's a single Catapult. Otherwise, you could drop the BAP, and fit 3 sm lasers alone. Or you could drop a ton of ammo as well, maybe downgrade a launcher to a smaller one, and put 4 med lasers on... We could argue this point all night, as it's all up to preference, perspective, and tactics/strategy...

The "Targeting Bonuses" form BAP is in "data acquisition", not in "speeding up target lock for missiles".

You are defined by so many "this or you bad" statements. It's not true. It's like saying a slow light is bad, or all mechs need DHS, or to place an XL engine in all mechs... It depends upon one's playing style. I personally find BAP has some uses, but is not a necessary piece of equipment. If I have the weight to put it in, then I'll add it in. Otherwise, I don't think it is needed. This is a personal choice/opinion from my experience with using it. Is it helpful? Yes. Yes it can be. I will not deny that.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

The speed is for two things:
- To fallback to your line if you're in trouble
- To maintain range on targets.

The second one is why "staying with your team" is not a viable option for LRMs. If a Centurion is moving towards you at around 100, being able to run away from him (directly backwards with jump jets) nearly as fast as he's moving forwards mean you can keep shooting and shooting, and deal massive damage before risk of being overrun. It will also let you back up at the speed assaults move forwards, again, allowing you to keep optimal range.

If you are in a big, slow mboat you can't dictate the engagement range and are already at a huge disadvantage.

88 KPH is not a "commandment". It is not needed. My Stalker goes slower, and it's done well with LRMs in the past. I wont deny that going faster would be helpful, but it is not a "Commandment". It is not a requirement.

I do not deny that the longer you can keep a target in LRM ranges, the more damage your LRMs can do. However, if you can stay with your team, when that "ECM mech" comes baring down at you, your whole team can come to your aid. If you are off and alone, then they can quickly (them often times moving at 150 KPH) catch up to you. What does your LRM boat do then? BAP doesn't help, as your legs/rear get quickly eaten. Shooting a last few desperate volleys at farther targets become your only option. I rather like to keep options open, and hanging around some friends can actually permit me to use LRMs at farther targets while the team scares away the pest. THEN, BAP comes in handy as you can continue to support your team as your team supports you.

I agree, but that is also why I encourage people to not boat LRMs. This way, when the faster mechs come around, and you couldn't "dictate the engagement range" anymore, you can still do something. If you are running a Missile Boat, you are already at a huge disadvantage. Moving faster doesn't change that fact, but does help to alleviate the issues a little more.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Honestly a single LRM wouldn't be a bad choice - once upon a time in closed beta it was good even! - if not for the LRM's arch-nemesis, the AMS.

Because of the AMS a single launcher is worthless. If so much as a single Commando with AMS walks between you and your victim, you're not going to do as much damage as a medium laser if that. You need a SWARM of missiles to overwhelm AMS, which is found all the time in pugs.

Ironically one of the reasons LRM sucker punches work in competitive is nobody uses LRMs so nobody uses AMS a lot of the time.

Something has been funny with AMS for the past few months. Use to be AMS would shoot down some missiles, but a single AMS wouldn't do all that much, probably 10% of missiles would get shot down per AMS for single launchers, size and range dependent. Somehow, they started to stomp LRMs even harder. I've been known to launch 30 LRMs, and have not a single one hit target because of a single AMS (that I could see shooting). It's a gamble now.

You also forget the team aspect. One thought would be if everyone had a couple of small launchers, then it becomes a swarm. Then the group can just stay 300m away and pelt with just about everything they have.

To be honest, in my matches, I don't see very many AMS. It's as random as the PUG matches I drop in. Some matches will have everyone with ECM and/or AMS, other times I wont see any of it...

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I have to be blunt: That sounds absolutely terrible. Terrible 'mech, terrible loadout, terrible plan.

Don't knock it till you try it. I use the LRMs to open holes and delay my own advancement into combat. Then, later in the match, the MGs really get to have a good time with all the open armor, ripping at internals quickly. This Raven does have Artemis, but no room for BAP nor TAG, but direct fire is not it's game. It hangs in back of the group, supporting from there, till it is needed on the front lines, or someone punches through the team and I need to help there. It is a team player mech, and in any 1 vs 1, it will not to well. It is also a style of play unique mostly to this mech, few other mechs can combine it's speed, with it's weapon loadout.

Refer to my stats provided above for this mech. It's got the highest KD out of my lights. It is effective, especially in pairs I might add. But it isn't for everyone and doesn't match everyone's play style.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Lots of bad ways to play LRMs by the sound of it.

Again that won't pierce AMS and 2 unenhanced, non-BAP, non-TAG, non-Artemis LRM5s are going to accomplish two things: Jack and Squat.

It will provide me with a ways to contribute to the fight still, possibly pushing people back into cover. If all else fails, it can make for a handy "scout" for enemy mechs hiding with AMS... (That trick worked more than once for me, as an early warning to foes I did not know were there...)
This build was effective in it's time, and I mastered all my Dragons with the build and did fairly well with them. I have since changed the build slightly to increase it's speed among other things... losing the LRMs altogether for the moment.

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I strongly encourage new players to avoid clicking this link.

Why? Because I have a different view point other than yours? Did you click it? Did you read it? Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they are wrong, nor right. It is a different perspective/point of view on the subject, that's all. I disagree with your points for my own reasons, though you do make several valid points, especially for people who "boat" the LRMs.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Why? Because I have a different view point other than yours?

Sorry Tesunie, but this is Vic...so... yeah, of course its terrible, BECAUSE it is different than his.

Edit: all the obvious facts show him to be GOD!

Edited by Shar Wolf, 10 December 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[Tesunie]

Shar Wolf, on 10 December 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Edit: all the obvious facts show him to be GOD!

Well, that explains the "commandments" part of this... Should I start making the Golden Cow, or do you want to do it?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Well, that explains the "commandments" part of this... Should I start making the Golden Cow, or do you want to do it?

I am more than ready to bring the flames.

[TercieI]

Guys, none of your tones are helping in a New Players Forum. Just saying.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Terciel1976, on 10 December 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Guys, none of your tones are helping in a New Players Forum. Just saying.

Believe me, I am trying.
(on that note: I am out of here before I start a flame war, if I haven't already)

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Then, I present to you my mech stats for your viewing. You take a guess which ones are the mechs I use LRMs in? And, I'd like to mention, I'm almost always PUGing. I'm rarely in any groups.

I wont say I'm the greatest mechwarrior in the game, but I find I am far more effective with my LRMs than I am with other weapons.

Stop posting PUG screenshots to prove anything.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

All weapons are for causing damage and trying to kill when possible. However, that does not mean to say that it is the only purpose or role for all weapons. A weapon can be used defensively as much offensively, and how you set it up will depend upon how you use it. LRMs are not as large and heavy and ammo hungry as you seem to make them out to be. A single LRM5 launcher doesn't weigh that much, and a single ton of ammo for a single LRM5 launcher can go a decent time. Now, I'm not saying it can't get heavy, and it can't be ammo hungry, but it doesn't always mean so.

Uses for LRMs beyond damage and kills:
- Suppression. Use the LRMs to force people back into cover. The Incoming Missile alert fails to inform you how many missiles are coming, and if a single LRM5 can keep someone in cover a bit longer for me to flank them (maybe) among other tactical assists, then it might be worth it.
- AMS disposal. What if I'm in a team, and I had the extra tonnage to place a single LRM5 with 1 ton ammo. I could use this on a heavy AMS team/mech and just work on depleting their ammo. This way, when the real LRM mechs start to shoot, the enemy no longer has as much AMS protection. It's a possibility, is it not?
- Range/Reach/Obstructed view/Support. I could use a small amount of LRM launchers to support a closer in build for a range supplement. This way, I can use cover as I approach for my bigger weapons, while still supporting my team for damage till I can help out better. If you have a whole lance of mechs set up in such a fashion, a few small launchers on a group of mechs makes it so everyone can help each other out, line of sight hindered or not.

I'm sure other people can devise more ways to use it as well.

All is well and good with those roles, if you have the missiles and setup to bring the pain once you finally line up a shot. Indirect fire is that thing you do while you are positioning for direct fire, period.

Again any weapon this heavy and consuming needs to be able to kill things or it's not worth the weight. We're not talking a 2 ton support gun here.

Tesunie, on 10 December 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

I'm not talking about my main mode of damage, but as a support to compliment my other weapons. I talk about it's indirect fire as a way to support a team when out of position to help otherwise. It is always advisable to try and get line of sight to a target, but you can't always get it, and sometimes it is safer/better to stay hidden and let your team do what they can do better than you can.

If you aren't dedicating enough resources to your LRMs to make them your primary firepower, you might as well not take them.

This will obviously be different in the Clan meta, where an LRM/20 only weighs 6 tons. A pair of backup LRMs then would be more than acceptable. But when you are paying what we are in tonnage & crit space, you simply cannot half-measure them.

[Victor Morson]

QUOTE = Tesunie]

The idea sometimes is to work as a team, and not as an individual. My biggest argument/Disagreement with this post is the "commandment" part, which implies that these are "must do"s. There are other ways to run the LRM system. There was a reason in lore/books/TT that LRMs was so popular and on almost every mech to some extent.



Not in MW:O there isn't. Anything that deviates from these rules is at a massive disadvantage, and is bad for their team.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

As a well coordinated team, or even a PUG group that just works well together, a loadout where everyone has a few launchers can quickly mount it's damage on a foe. This can make a target weakened before they even get a chance to really see you, making it easier for a team to take down designated targets. Even when fired indirectly, my spread of missiles is going to help to drive the enemy back into cover, try to break lock with my teammate (who might be brawling or dodging their attacks) and could prevent damage to an ally. It also can help a mech that is too concentrated on dodging (some light mechs) to accurately attack still be of help, as LRMs can still do damage consistently, and the slower target being harassed by the light now also is being hit by LRMs.

Damage does and can still add up over time.



This is horrible and there's a reason units don't do this. The LRMs won't be in sync and thus will not overwhelm AMS systems (even if you sync the timing, the range differences will get you) and you effectively make everyone unable to bring all their guns at all ranges.

A terrible strategy and there's a reason you only occasionally see it in a gimmick casual team since it can blindside people that aren't looking for it, but once they adapt it's beyond easy to crush.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

I have not had TAG on my mechs in a while now. I'd much rather have a damaging weapon on that slot, but other people are different. I find I'd rather have 4 med lasers to defend myself, rather than no med lasers and only a TAG. TAG also wont help if you run out of LRMs, which a lot of non-assault/heavy mechs will find themselves doing most times.




The damage you lose in not having a TAG (and extra ammo) is far, far, far greater than the damage you gain in your 4 meds.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

TAG is a playstyle choice, and I recommend people experiment and try every weapon in the game at least once.



No, it's not. If you don't have TAG and you have LRMs you have a bad LRM mech. End of story.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

The problem is, you confused "missile boat" for "LRM user". A boated mech is great in it's niche. Get it outside of that, and it's dead. I feel a balanced build is best most times, as it helps compensate for the weaknesses



Too heavy, too ammo consuming, and too unlike the other weapons to blend. Again if AMS wasn't in the game, you MIGHT be able to make a case for small launchers here and there, but as it stands it's a waste. A big waste.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

. You can still use LRMs to effect, then close in with your "backup weapons" to finish a job, instead of being the last mech standing, and having everyone charge into you and you being useless at that point. My Hunchback has 30 LRM tubes, with 5 med lasers still. I can do decent LRM damage, as well as close in if needed. This means I need less LRM ammo overall, as I typically use the LRMs to deal damage as I close into a target. I try to keep them 300m away, so I can hit them with everything I have.



That loss of speed and/or 5 tons of ammo will hurt you far, far more than the lasers will benefit you.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

A few med lasers has been the difference between defeat and a victory for my team before. Don't underestimate other weapon systems on a mech. If med lasers are too heavy, then even a set of small lasers is good for if you run out of ammo...

Remember, a few extra tons of LRM ammo = useless if someone is within 180m of your mech.

A few Med Lasers = I can defend myself if someone gets too close.



A few medium lasers might be lucky at finishing a wounded target but you're not bringing anyone fresh down with them on a slow missile boat.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

(PS: TAG does not "help" hitting smaller, faster targets all that much. Your missiles don't fly any faster with TAG than without.)



TAG improves the missile turn rate & tracking time. So you are in error. The missile speed remains constant, but it makes the difference between "Sharp turn into the side of that Centurion" and "Dull turn into the ground by his feet."

QUOTE = Tesunie]

It is one of the MANY uses of LRMs. It can open a piece of side armor, making it so an ally can disable that XL engine in there. Unlike other weapon systems, you seem to forget that you can't pin point the damage for LRMs where you want them. They will land and damage anything that they happen to hit.




Or if you're properly setup it can open a piece of side armor and then have your ally kill it proceed to smash the internals and kill the 'mech flat out.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

Once more, you confused LRMs with the need to boat. If you are dedicated everything in a mech to LRMs and only LRMs, then that is your choice. LRMs are still not as heavy, nor do as much damage, as a direct line of sight fired AC/PPC. Even in direct fire from 300m, it is still possible for your target to shoot you back, and then duck into cover before your own LRMs can even hit. Tag and Artemis does not make your missiles travel any faster, and the faster moving projectiles from a Ballistic style weapon will probably win. LRMs are not as heavy as Ballistics, but LRMs will eat through more ammo faster. Consider them AoE weapons.



PPCs do not have a dedicated piece of equipment that neuters it if you only carry 1 PPC.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

You can't "concentrate, focus damage" on one component of a mech, even with Artemis. However, Artemis does help your LRMs to land more to center mass. What you are talking about is still boating LRMs. I'm suggesting using them as a support system, as well as even a main system. There are more uses than you are summarizing here.



With TAG + Artemis (which you don't have much experience with), your shots will tighten to an EXTREMELY tight group, landing center mass based on your facing. If you are on a 'mechs left side and fire TAG+Artemis 10-15s, almost all of that damage will land Left Torso without other factors. So yeah, it makes a HUGE difference.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

Artemis, I find, is a choice. It can be helpful, but LRMs can work just as well without them. I can compensate the lack of Artemis with more launchers, more ammo, more heatsinks, and/or more back up weapons (or even TAG). There are ways to play LRMs with and without Artemis.



Damage #s =/= useful damage. Not having Artemis ruins the latter.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

I haven't used BAP too much yet, I shall admit. On my LRM mechs, they can/might help me shoot at other targets farther away instead of being shut down from ECM. However, blocking ECM doesn't help me against the ECM mech, unless I'm in a team who will come help me, or another nearby LRM mech can send LRMs to help me. Personally, between the two options, I'd rather sacrifice some LRM capabilities to equip more back up weapons, be it lasers, ACs or even SRMs. This lets me be able to defend myself from ECM mechs, maybe even kill them.

Your analogy of the Spider is... wrong. ECM does not make all LRMs in the air "drop like rocks". It will disrupt your lock, but your missiles shall still home in on the last place they had locked onto. Depending upon distance, it could be too late and the missile are already on target. As for the rest, read my link? I have that covered there in more depth.



Your missiles lose EVERY bit of guidance, and will undooubtedly hit the ground, if the Spider even walks past you. Also do you really think you are going to "kill an ECM light" with 4 medium lasers before it can impact your ability to fire LRMs?

QUOTE = Tesunie]

Of course, if you suggest replacing BAP for close range SSRMs, that would be your own folly. I said no such thing. There is only one mech that can't take anything other than missiles, and that's a single Catapult. Otherwise, you could drop the BAP, and fit 3 sm lasers alone. Or you could drop a ton of ammo as well, maybe downgrade a launcher to a smaller one, and put 4 med lasers on... We could argue this point all night, as it's all up to preference, perspective, and tactics/strategy...

The "Targeting Bonuses" form BAP is in "data acquisition", not in "speeding up target lock for missiles".



Why I said Targeting Bonuses and not Lock Time.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

You are defined by so many "this or you bad" statements. It's not true. It's like saying a slow light is bad, or all mechs need DHS, or to place an XL engine in all mechs... It depends upon one's playing style. I personally find BAP has some uses, but is not a necessary piece of equipment. If I have the weight to put it in, then I'll add it in. Otherwise, I don't think it is needed. This is a personal choice/opinion from my experience with using it. Is it helpful? Yes. Yes it can be. I will not deny that.



LRMs really are a black & white system.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

88 KPH is not a "commandment". It is not needed. My Stalker goes slower, and it's done well with LRMs in the past. I wont deny that going faster would be helpful, but it is not a "Commandment". It is not a requirement.



I routinely trash LRM Stalkers in my Centurion & Shadow Hawk with LRMs. Every single time, despite carrying less. In fact they often do not even seriously damage me.

They are too slow to LRM duel and they can't dictate the range of engagement. I can dart around 1000 or inside of 180 just smashing these things to bits and they can't do a thing about it. They're pretty bad.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

I do not deny that the longer you can keep a target in LRM ranges, the more damage your LRMs can do. However, if you can stay with your team, when that "ECM mech" comes baring down at you, your whole team can come to your aid. If you are off and alone, then they can quickly (them often times moving at 150 KPH) catch up to you. What does your LRM boat do then?



You should always be close enough to your lines that you can fall back to them. Again, speed.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

I agree, but that is also why I encourage people to not boat LRMs. This way, when the faster mechs come around, and you couldn't "dictate the engagement range" anymore, you can still do something. If you are running a Missile Boat, you are already at a huge disadvantage. Moving faster doesn't change that fact, but does help to alleviate the issues a little more.



Why it's better to go all or nothing with LRMs. Half-LRMs is a reciepe for failure.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

Something has been funny with AMS for the past few months. Use to be AMS would shoot down some missiles, but a single AMS wouldn't do all that much, probably 10% of missiles would get shot down per AMS for single launchers, size and range dependent. Somehow, they started to stomp LRMs even harder. I've been known to launch 30 LRMs, and have not a single one hit target because of a single AMS (that I could see shooting). It's a gamble now.



AMS in your path is twice as dangerous as AMS on your target.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

You also forget the team aspect. One thought would be if everyone had a couple of small launchers, then it becomes a swarm. Then the group can just stay 300m away and pelt with just about everything they have.

To be honest, in my matches, I don't see very many AMS. It's as random as the PUG matches I drop in. Some matches will have everyone with ECM and/or AMS, other times I wont see any of it...



Again the missiles won't be sync'ed in distance and speed enough letting the AMS have a field day.

Also nearly every PUG ever is carrying AMS right now, I don't know what you are talking about.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

Don't knock it till you try it. I use the LRMs to open holes and delay my own advancement into combat. Then, later in the match, the MGs really get to have a good time with all the open armor, ripping at internals quickly. This Raven does have Artemis, but no room for BAP nor TAG, but direct fire is not it's game.



This build is God awful.

The LRMs aren't strong enough to do serious damage, the MGs are weak, the engine is slow and it isn't even properly set for LRMs. This is among the very worst LRM lights I've seen, and that whole category is bad.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

Refer to my stats provided above for this mech. It's got the highest KD out of my lights. It is effective, especially in pairs I might add. But it isn't for everyone and doesn't match everyone's play style.



Rapid fire kill stealing is the only reason for that. That setup is horrendous at any level. It really is.

QUOTE = Tesunie]

Why? Because I have a different view point other than yours? Did you click it? Did you read it? Just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean they are wrong, nor right. It is a different perspective/point of view on the subject, that's all. I disagree with your points for my own reasons, though you do make several valid points, especially for people who "boat" the LRMs.



Here's my problem: You are on here trying to argue these points and give advice (even having a thread for advice on LRMs) without even being a frequent TAG, BAP or Artemis user.

This is literally a case of "You don't know what you're talking about."

ED: Got sick of the quote system capping out at 10, and trying to merge posts so you can't quote past that even then. Sorry for the formatting.

Terciel1976, on 10 December 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Guys, none of your tones are helping in a New Players Forum. Just saying.

Hopefully new players can make up their mind reading these debates.
I'll admit it's frustrating to offer new players advice on how to properly use a gun only to have people steadily countering with horrendous advice.

[Rascula]

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

AWS-8R is horribly outclassed, the BattleMaster is an infinitely superior missile assault.

And the point with Ghost Heat is to design a 'mech so you can fire all 50-60 missiles in one go without Ghost Heat, rather than worrying about chain firing it.



We are way off on a derail right now talking about UAVs and XP gathering techniques.

Let's put this back to LRMs.

Adv. Target Decay: Highly recommended first module for pilots who really like LRMs. That stands. It's no more expensive than other modules, and frankly I'm sorry we've gone off on this tangent about the best ways to grind XP.

Hang on...

Firstly the 8R is very good at what it does, theres probably better but 'Horribly Outclassed' is a bit much.

Secondly Why would anyone fire 50 - 60 missiles in one go.. thats a huge risk of loosing lock/line of sight and wasting a metric ton of ammo.. chain firing is in my opinion usually your best bet <Depending of course on your targets situation and AMS etc> for consistent damage,

Thirdly...

Victor Morson, on 10 December 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I am serious, I started my leveling run with about 50k GXP, ended with 60k GXP and re-invested that 10k GXP to finish off the last 'mech.

Again, premium time + UAV is largely responsible, I've seen jumps as high as 500 mech XP per round with proper usage.

I will disclaim that this is give or take a few hundred GXP.

This implies youve only just completed grinding an LRM mech <Any experienced pilot would already have that module for sure.. If thats the case whilst your opinions are appreciated it hardly qualifies you to be an experienced LRM pilot..

Terciel1976, on 10 December 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Guys, none of your tones are helping in a New Players Forum. Just saying.

And finaly your quite right so I shall leave it here too.