675 replies to this topic

[3endless8oogie]

Sandpit, on 06 January 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

There's just nowhere near the discrepancy in my opinion. I use lasers almost exclusively. I use them well. I do well with them as a primary weapon.
I run a 5LL Stalker a LOT and I can cycle through all 5 continuously 5 times on most maps before heat is a concern.
The trade-offs are there. Whether they're "worth it" is subjective to an extent. The community is very vocal on this subject but also just about evenly divided.
Just as many that hate the way ballistics currently work, like the way they work now. So you have 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

I have only 3 mechs on this acc, all laserboats and I am not doing bad with them. Had to grind to master them, but after they were mastered i started doing good...

On my other acc i have a jm-dd not mastered, just basics. Sometimes i use 3xac5, some times ac10 or ac20, doesnt realy matter much- ballistics are easy-mode. I do more damage, more kills and never overheat.

It wouldn´t be such a problem if all mechs could use acs, but since there are a bunch that cant....
Doesn´t need a huge nerf or buff to fix this, just a few little tweaks and everything is fine.

[Wildstreak]

Let's not forget, it is not just Ballistics, it is also the PPC. I am driving an Awesome with 2xPPC and 2xLL, the change in play from other Mechs I have run is just plain weird for me. I have to chain fire everything to avoid overheat so I do not get high damage alphas, tried linked fire but too much heat and I just don't like the wait time for cooldown. Even with only 2xPPC, I have noticed they have a psychological effect on opponents along with the damage effect.

As for Ballistics, I would say the AC/20 and AC/10 are more of a problem than the 5 or 2 to get into the details of it. Not sure about the Ultra as I have never used one.

[Sandpit]

Merchant, on 06 January 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Let's not forget, it is not just Ballistics, it is also the PPC. I am driving an Awesome with 2xPPC and 2xLL, the change in play from other Mechs I have run is just plain weird for me. I have to chain fire everything to avoid overheat so I do not get high damage alphas, tried linked fire but too much heat and I just don't like the wait time for cooldown. Even with only 2xPPC, I have noticed they have a psychological effect on opponents along with the damage effect.

As for Ballistics, I would say the AC/20 and AC/10 are more of a problem than the 5 or 2 to get into the details of it. Not sure about the Ultra as I have never used one.

This is because I truly feel it's not a "ballistics are op" or "ballistics are better than energy" thing

It's a "front-end damage" thing which means people don't complain about the smaller calibers because they don't do quite as much damage. It becomes more apparent the further the debate goes.

[Almond Brown]

Roadkill, on 03 January 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

That's a start, but I don't think it does the trick. Too many Mechs can carry multiple PPCs in a single location, which negates both of your proposed corrective actions.

How about center (and lock) the torso while in the air?

That could have merit, when Jumping, the Mech's Torso Pitch is reduced to 0⁰ and add in Arm lock and you got a flying "straight" shooter.

That way a Popper would have to jump line up while still low and fire with a heavily reduced in the air time frame, or shoot while in shake mode.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 January 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Yes they could. Shame about that here.

But no weapons fire while running the Jets...

[Almond Brown]

Cimarb, on 03 January 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Honestly, after seeing some of their decisions the last year or so, I don't have a clue what PGI looks at.
I'm sure they do, but that doesn't mean they chose the right option. Are you saying that ghost heat was a good option? 3PV was a good option? The options they chose regarding UI2.0 decisions over the last two years?
I'm what would be considered a "white knight", but defending front loaded damage by saying PGI listens to us and makes the right choices is quite a stretch.

And sadly for many, despite what they see as the Holy Grail of fixes, just cause it is "their" idea, once a construction project is heavily underway, coming in as a consultant and telling the builders to remove the fifth floor, while they are working to finishing the 9th, just isn't going to happen.

That is what many ask for. "Let's just start over!" A this point it sounds more like "crazy talk" than "practical" most times.

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 January 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Sandpit]

Almond Brown, on 06 January 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

That could have merit, when Jumping, the Mech's Torso Pitch is reduced to 0⁰ and add in Arm lock and you got a flying "straight" shooter.

That way a Popper would have to jump line up while still low and fire with a heavily reduced in the air time frame, or shoot while in shake mode.

yes

Almond Brown, on 06 January 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

But no weapons fire while running the Jets...

no

lol cutting off weapons fire while JJs are engaged has a much larger global impact over and above wanting to "fix" a small issue like poptarting (which I don't really consider an "issue" myself but I digress)

[Almond Brown]

Sandpit, on 03 January 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

Ironically enough I'm about as far from being a white knight as can be and I think ballistics are in a good place right now

I would agree but with a small caveat. Can we reduce the smoke some. The shake is doable but the smoke... its is just over the top...

[Almond Brown]

Varent, on 03 January 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

yup

Everyone in this thread that participated in BOTH of the UI 2.0 Public Tests raise their hand?

[Hand]

Let's see if the walk is as hard as the talk...

P.S. All excuses will be excused as "everyone" always has an excuse when it suits their needs...

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 January 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Sandpit]

Almond Brown, on 06 January 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

I would agree but with a small caveat. Can we reduce the smoke some. The shake is doable but the smoke... its is just over the top...

The screen shake is annoying but not a deal breaker especially when firing back with lasers. That's a huge perk to lasers in my opinion. My screen goes all oobly doobly™ on me but I cna walk in laser fire and not worry about missing with the initial shot still putting damage back on my attacker. I think the smoke is over the top though. You already deal with screen shake, why the need for smoke as well?
Also I think lasers should wreak havoc with the vision modes to help bring them into the loop. They produce heat and light which should cause issues with thermal and night vision modes

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 January 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

With the exception that we cannot have an increase in cyclic rate without a increase in heat disipation. By the time the "average" weapon recycles heat should be almost vented.

Because of penalties in TT, most didn't over-work their Mechs (to much) per turn for fear of not having anything to do but cool next.

In MWO, a real time Fast Paced Shooter, the RoF increase was a game play decision, like armor doubling, likely predicated on the thought that any sane player would do the same (not overheat every turn so to speak) here. But when you ride along in MWO, a hot Mech is never allowed to properly cool in 99% of the noted cases, the pilot simply assume they are soon dead so they Alpha, SD, wake up, Alpha, SD repeat until the enemy does in fact kill them.

Even fewer Players have a build that can handle the heat the weapons load they jam into every nook and cranny produce, totally for-going the other side of that balance sheet.

So I do not make it PGI's fault all the time. Perhaps the players could take some responsibility for how they perceive their gun bags to behave on the field when they abuse the trigger.

Edited by Almond Brown, 06 January 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[Vyx]

Honestly, this is really easy to fix, and I am sure it's been mentioned before:

• Simply increase the chance for ammo to explode on a critical hit

As it stands, ammo explosions occur 10% of the time on a critical hit. Up it to 50% and it would silence this issue in a heartbeat.

It would make lasers the safer, more reliable weapons - just hot. Ballistics would be just as they are: strong, pinpoint dps, with minimal heat - but hit the volatile ammo and it'll ruin your day. Missiles would fill in the gap: specialized, splashy dps (long and indirect, or short and brutal) - but once again with the ammo drawback (maybe lowered to 25% - but still a threat).

If this were considered by the developers, it would also make sense to add this extra bit of code in as well:

• If an ammo-driven weapon is the last of it's type on-board to be destroyed, then automatically dump all remaining ammo for that weapon

No sense in carrying dangerous ammo if there is no weapon to fire it. Might make the voice say "dumping ammo" or something relevant, just to be cool.

Anyway, my 2Cbills.

[Khobai]

Quote

Honestly, this is really easy to fix, and I am sure it's been mentioned before:

• Simply increase the chance for ammo to explode on a critical hit

Except that ammo explosions arn't fun. Nobody enjoys dying to ammo explosions. Any game mechanic that makes the game less fun isn't a good game mechanic. Thats not to say ammo explosions shouldnt exist, but the following changes should be made:



1) Ammo explosions should NOT be random. Ammo should explode 100% of the time instead of only 10% of the time.

2) Ammo explosions should do considerably less damage and should no longer instantly destroy a mech. In tabletop youre controlling multiple mechs so ammo explosions destroying entire mechs is far more acceptable. But when you only control one mech, having ammo explosions instakill your mech is a very poor game mechanic which enables RNG to trump skill. Ammo should explode 100% of the time but only do 10% of the damage. CASE should also reduce this explosion damage further.

3) Ballistics should be balanced in other ways that dont make them less fun. The punitive approach was used on gauss and its no longer a fun weapon as a result. Gauss has become an example of how not to balance weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Dock Steward, on 05 January 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Yeah, I forgot that part. It would totally factor in mech weight in terms of what each chassis' threshold before effect would be.

What about designs made specifically for certain Heavy Ballistics? The HBK-4G moves to mind immediately. Are we adding Quirks to those?

[Sandpit]

Vyx, on 06 January 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Honestly, this is really easy to fix, and I am sure it's been mentioned before:

• Simply increase the chance for ammo to explode on a critical hit

As it stands, ammo explosions occur 10% of the time on a critical hit. Up it to 50% and it would silence this issue in a heartbeat.


It would make lasers the safer, more reliable weapons - just hot. Ballistics would be just as they are: strong, pinpoint dps, with minimal heat - but hit the volatile ammo and it'll ruin your day. Missiles would fill in the gap: specialized, splashy dps (long and indirect, or short and brutal) - but once again with the ammo drawback (maybe lowered to 25% - but still a threat).

If this were considered by the developers, it would also make sense to add this extra bit of code in as well:

• If an ammo-driven weapon is the last of it's type on-board to be destroyed, then automatically dump all remaining ammo for that weapon

No sense in carrying dangerous ammo if there is no weapon to fire it. Might make the voice say "dumping ammo" or something relevant, just to be cool.


Anyway, my 2Cbills.

50% would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too high and the use of CASE would negate a lot of that anyhow

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 05 January 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

Well, that damage is supposed to be over 10 seconds, but PGI buggered that whole system by changing the armor and the fire rate. For the TT equivalent, the AC20 would need a 5 second cooldown (fires twice as fast against twice as much armor). But then it would be not so optimal in a brawl with the longest cooldown in the game.

The current AC20 has a 4 second CD. Now if extrapolate your 5 second based CD a bit, that is 12 shots per minute versus the current MWO's 4 second CD providing an additional 3 total shots per minute of game play.

Not seeing how that is really all that "buggered" at all given 2X armor values.

[Khobai]

According to lore, autocannons are supposed to fire in bursts. The way the AC/20 should work is that it should have a 4-round magazine, with each shot doing 5 damage. It should be able to fire semi-auto by pulling the trigger or fully auto by holding the trigger down. When all rounds in the magazine are expended, the weapon should go on cooldown while the magazine is being reloaded.

The AC/20 and AC/5 would be way less overpowered if they fired multiple bursts separated by several fractions of a second.

Quote

100% ammo explosion would make missile boats disappear entirely.

Not if CASE reduced the ammo explosion damage considerably. There quite frankly needs to be a reason to use CASE. CASE should work more like CASEII and reduce the ammo explosion damage to almost nothing. Its quite frankly idiotic that everyone puts ammo in their arms and legs because theres more benefit to that than putting it in a location with CASE. CASE needs to be buffed.

Edited by Khobai, 06 January 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[Allen Ward]

hm, 100% ammo explosion would make missile boats disappear entirely. which means, Catapult or similar mechs are useless. I don't want to walk around in a fragile mech with 2.000 missiles sitting around me, that will go off as soon as some AC20 or LBX crits my side torso, leg, wherever ammo is.

Although I like the approach I think this is going to backfire a little. Taking out a full (and important) role should not be the goal.

Normally ammo explosions should do 100% damage, giving them ghost damage of 10% is awkward. Maybe 25% chance for ammo going off would be a compromise...50% seems to be pretty risky and 100% is surely a reason to never ever load missiles onto my mechs.

[Allen Ward]

Khobai, on 06 January 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

According to lore, autocannons are supposed to fire in bursts.

The way the AC/20 should work is that it should have a 4-round magazine, with each shot doing 5 damage. It should be able to fire semi-auto by pulling the trigger or fully auto by holding the trigger down. When all rounds in the magazine are expended, the weapon should go on cooldown the magazine is being reloaded.

and there you have it...if they fired 4 projectiles than they have a real chance of hitting several locations (or some even miss). Even fast firing flechettes would strafe over the target and hit different locations depending on direction, speed and distance. But, this is true for all Autocannons except for LBX (which fires one slug). I don't know why they had to do everything different, just for the reason to do it different.

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 06 January 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

The current AC20 has a 4 second CD. Now if extrapolate your 5 second based CD a bit, that is 12 shots per minute versus the current MWO's 4 second CD providing an additional 3 total shots per minute of game play.

Not seeing how that is really all that "buggered" at all given 2X armor values.

Well, stock armor, AC20 does 4 damage and a 2 second cooldown, its an AC20 since it does 20 damage in 10 seconds. That's one option that comes to mind.

With PGI's system, the AC2 is the most severe change, with 10x TT damage. AC20 is only 1.25 for comparison. I think PGI made a mistake by taking the same damage and heat values, but making them fire faster.

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 January 2014 - 11:38 AM.