675 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Merchant, on 06 January 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

I noted Sarna contradicts itself

Sarna contradicts itself because all of the rule revisions and additions over the decades contradict themselves. That's one of the problems with using TT examples. It is the same in any game I've played from a long-running TT port. D&D, Shadowrun, etc.

I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just the reality of the situation. I'm an L1 with an L2 mixed in here and there TT BTech semi-purist. Once you get past 3057 or so most of Btech rules become very munchy and cheesy to me. Even most of the clan stuff os a bit too cheesy for my tastes but I played it and enjoyed it, just not as much.

I still believe this is a pretty good port of the TT game and IP in general. The core mechanics and game play make me feel like I stepped into a battlemech and am playing in the Btech universe. I know not everyone will agree with that but that's just my personal opinion

[Wildstreak]

Sandpit, on 06 January 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Sarna contradicts itself because all of the rule revisions and additions over the decades contradict themselves. That's one of the problems with using TT examples. It is the same in any game I've played from a long-running TT port. D&D, Shadowrun, etc.

I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just the reality of the situation. I'm an L1 with an L2 mixed in here and there TT BTech semi-purist. Once you get past 3057 or so most of Btech rules become very munchy and cheesy to me. Even most of the clan stuff os a bit too cheesy for my tastes but I played it and enjoyed it, just not as much.

I still believe this is a pretty good port of the TT game and IP in general. The core mechanics and game play make me feel like I stepped into a battlemech and am playing in the Btech universe. I know not everyone will agree with that but that's just my personal opinion

I can agree with several things here. I have rarely ever run into contradictions when I played TT but I stopped around the time the 3060 stuff was coming out due to RL. Same with D&D and a few other non-computer games.

I preferred 3025 over 3050, the 2750 readout was interesting but the Clans kinda created a power rush into the game, too much got added too soon. I do wonder if that was a problem with several board and RPG at the time in order to compete in the business, it was around the same time D&D started suffering from this belief every game world had to have major world shaking events that always led to conflicts with the designers of those worlds (Gygax, Greenwood for example).

[MustrumRidcully]

Merchant, on 07 January 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

I can agree with several things here. I have rarely ever run into contradictions when I played TT but I stopped around the time the 3060 stuff was coming out due to RL. Same with D&D and a few other non-computer games.

I preferred 3025 over 3050, the 2750 readout was interesting but the Clans kinda created a power rush into the game, too much got added too soon. I do wonder if that was a problem with several board and RPG at the time in order to compete in the business, it was around the same time D&D started suffering from this belief every game world had to have major world shaking events that always led to conflicts with the designers of those worlds (Gygax, Greenwood for example).

Yes, I think power creep was part of the business models of many games around that time.

World-Shaking events might have been the same on the story/setting side of things to liven things up. Old fans want to stay current (even fi they might hate the changes in the end), and people that didn't like the first take might like the new one.

[stjobe]

Merchant, on 07 January 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

I preferred 3025 over 3050, the 2750 readout was interesting but the Clans kinda created a power rush into the game, too much got added too soon.

I'm a 2nd edition, TRO:3025 diehard myself, never did understand or care for the cheese that was the Clans. Wolf's Dragoons were much cooler when they just were a bad-4ss merc outfit and not some gene-program from beyond the known universe, with equipment that was cooler, lighter, more damaging and with better range. The power creep just turned me off completely.

I'm not even going to mention the later abominations, because to my mind that's just what they were.

I'd be happy as a clam with a stock 3025 game, if we had one.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 08 January 2014 - 02:20 AM, said:

I'm a 2nd edition, TRO:3025 diehard myself, never did understand or care for the cheese that was the Clans. Wolf's Dragoons were much cooler when they just were a bad-4ss merc outfit and not some gene-program from beyond the known universe, with equipment that was cooler, lighter, more damaging and with better range. The power creep just turned me off completely.

I'm not even going to mention the later abominations, because to my mind that's just what they were.

I'd be happy as a clam with a stock 3025 game, if we had one.

The Dragoons were mostly Freeborns with a few Trueborns (the Wolf brothers and Natasha among them). 2750 was a good addition and should have been played out before adding in the clans. I for one never had a problem beating the Clans on TT.

[Lupus Aurelius]

I was going to type up another long analysis on weapon balance, heat system, firing speeds, and fitting capabilities.

Can't be bothered, with PGI's behavior and attitude, I can't afford to care.

R. Bollocks and P. Inureye, will continue to do whatever, regardless of logic, precedence, whatever, so long as they can grab the money from as many as possible for as long as they can. More important to get another mech out for money than to really balance the game.

[Voidsinger]

I actually think TRO: 2750 was the most significant TRO (and my personal favourite).

It gave some idea of what was lost since the fall of the Star League, and what was in store with the decoding of the Grey Death Memory Core. The 3050 updates to the Inner Sphere would have happened regardless.

Sadly, the Clans stomped all that into cheesy insignificance.

[Joseph Mallan]

Voidsinger, on 08 January 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

I actually think TRO: 2750 was the most significant TRO (and my personal favourite).

It gave some idea of what was lost since the fall of the Star League, and what was in store with the decoding of the Grey Death Memory Core. The 3050 updates to the Inner Sphere would have happened regardless.

Sadly, the Clans stomped all that into cheesy insignificance.

Although I agree with most of what you said, I did not find it impossible to beat Clans when they were introduced.

[Voidsinger]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 January 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Although I agree with most of what you said, I did not find it impossible to beat Clans when they were introduced.

Yeah, what I meant was the amount of players that gave up Inner Sphere, and then just played Clans. The Clans were never impossible to beat, just required a little thought.

Heck, I'm starting to feel the Clans in this game won't be worth playing (although I may make exceptions for the Stormcrow & Mad Dog).

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 January 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

The Dragoons were mostly Freeborns with a few Trueborns (the Wolf brothers and Natasha among them).

The Dragoons were just a cool merc company until they got retconned into Clanners.

Joseph Mallan, on 08 January 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

I for one never had a problem beating the Clans on TT.

I don't seem to recall mentioning it was me having a problem beating them that was my issue with them?

[Cimarb]

stjobe, on 08 January 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

The Dragoons were just a cool merc company until they got retconned into Clanners.

It's like when you go from being top dog in high school to noob In college. The Dragoons were the best of the best, and then some, but the clans ruined that and tried to make them seem like second-line troops. I loved the new tech, as I was a really bad min-maxer before I grew up, but the storylines and "feel" of everything just seemed to plummet after Tukayyid.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 08 January 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

It's like when you go from being top dog in high school to noob In college. The Dragoons were the best of the best, and then some, but the clans ruined that and tried to make them seem like second-line troops. I loved the new tech, as I was a really bad min-maxer before I grew up, but the storylines and "feel" of everything just seemed to plummet after Tukayyid.

Tukayid was a major plot point. But honestly Operation Bulldog and Serpent were equally major. HOWEVER there was still a huge interesting politcal agenda afterwards with the inner sphere starting to all bite each other yet again. That is of course if you enjoy such things.

I was enjoying them myself and was quite sad when they ended it for mechwarrior darkage. It killed the series for me.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

Tukayid was a major plot point. But honestly Operation Bulldog and Serpent were equally major. HOWEVER there was still a huge interesting politcal agenda afterwards with the inner sphere starting to all bite each other yet again. That is of course if you enjoy such things.

I was enjoying them myself and was quite sad when they ended it for mechwarrior darkage. It killed the series for me.

Even Dark Age had some good characters and storylines, but it just wasn't the same by then. I have the whole Dark Age series, and have read them more than once, but it was a totally different "feel" compared to pre-Clans and just doesn't pull at my kid-at-heart-strings as much.

[Varent]

Cimarb, on 08 January 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Even Dark Age had some good characters and storylines, but it just wasn't the same by then. I have the whole Dark Age series, and have read them more than once, but it was a totally different "feel" compared to pre-Clans and just doesn't pull at my kid-at-heart-strings as much.

Shrug. For me watching Victor face the jaguars was akin to the heroes journey metaphor. I enjoyed it quite thoroughly. Seeing him brought down again by his sister and then fighting for survival was quite nice. Then again I was a huge fanboy of that char. *shrug*

[Sandpit]

I'm definitely a 3025 4th succession war kinda guy myself. Although I love the Pryde story and trilogy. One of my favs

[Wildstreak]

3025 era for me, 3050 without the Clans.

It was never a matter of being able to fight the Clans, it was just the overload of all the tech that came with them and the arms race that followed creating a glut of stuff.

Given what I see they do now, I would probably go to 3025 or Star League eras, nothing from 3050 or beyond.

Dark Age came across as if saying, "We realize 3025 was a great era but we cannot go back so let's just reset the universe to that time about 100 years from then."

With the way game companies handle things, several years ago I came to the conclusion if I ever played again certain games like D&D, CBT and a few others, I would have to make my own universe just so nothing the companies did could screw with them.

Edited by Merchant, 08 January 2014 - 04:53 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Lupus Aurelius, on 08 January 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

I was going to type up another long analysis on weapon balance, heat system, firing speeds, and fitting capabilities.

Can't be bothered, with PGI's behavior and attitude, I can't afford to care.

R. Bollocks and P. Inureye, will continue to do whatever, regardless of logic, precedence, whatever, so long as they can grab the money from as many as possible for as long as they can. More important to get another mech out for money than to really balance the game.

Let me guess, speed change to AC/10 and AC/20.

Ya know, in all this discussion, disagreement and arguing, even the sly attempts to pick at each other, I don't recall ANYONE wanting speed changes on projectiles.

Voidsinger, on 08 January 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Yeah, what I meant was the amount of players that gave up Inner Sphere, and then just played Clans. The Clans were never impossible to beat, just required a little thought.

Heck, I'm starting to feel the Clans in this game won't be worth playing (although I may make exceptions for the Stormcrow & Mad Dog).

Clanner: "Freebirth scum, we have arrived to save you! Get me my Timber Wolf, tech."
"$55."
Clanner: "What?"
"$55. Or $210 for the collection level it is at."
Clanner: "What is this money? Clans don't use money."
"You do now. You can go $500 for a gold one."
Clanner: "Are you mad? Shall I have you perform a Trial of Grievance against an Elemental?"
"We don't allow Elementals."
Clanner: fumes angrily.

[Varent]

Merchant, on 08 January 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Let me guess, speed change to AC/10 and AC/20.

Ya know, in all this discussion, disagreement and arguing, even the sly attempts to pick at each other, I don't recall ANYONE wanting speed changes on projectiles.

Did I mention it.. no... do I like it.. YES!

[Sandpit]

Merchant, on 08 January 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Let me guess, speed change to AC/10 and AC/20.

Ya know, in all this discussion, disagreement and arguing, even the sly attempts to pick at each other, I don't recall ANYONE wanting speed changes on projectiles.


Clanner: "Freebirth scum, we have arrived to save you! Get me my Timber Wolf, tech."
"$55."
Clanner: "What?"
"$55. Or $210 for the collection level it is at."
Clanner: "What is this money? Clans don't use money."
"You do now. You can go $500 for a gold one."
Clanner: "Are you mad? Shall I have you perform a Trial of Grievance against an Elemental?"
"We don't allow Elementals."
Clanner: fumes angrily.

quoted for chuckles lol

Ok back on topic.........

I have played quite a bit since yesterday evening. I used an AC20, I used an AC10. I tried to pay special attention to when they were being used to shoot at me. I HAVE noticed a little less "I'm gonna shoot you with my AC20 at 600 meters" being accurate. I've noticed a definite difference in how I have to adjust the AC10 in order to take longer ranged shots.

Overall I actually think adjusting the speeds was a small step in the right direction. Face to face right now an AC20 is a fearsome beast but not quite as much at extreme ranges now.
I think is they just pull down the 3x range and give us that to try out for a month combined with yesterday's adjustments we would see some shifts.

After that if there were still a huge disparity I think they should look into shortening the beam duration and then possibly at convergence loss when firing multiple big bore ballistics at once mentioned previously in this thread.

I think another thing all of us lose sight of sometimes is that we started really seriously discussing some of these adjustments just within the last week. We've all seen what happens when knee jerk reactions cause balance changes. This is going to be a long process whether they like our ideas or not.

After all of that if there's STILL a huge disparity between the two weapon types I'd look into other balancing options.

[Cimarb]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Shrug. For me watching Victor face the jaguars was akin to the heroes journey metaphor. I enjoyed it quite thoroughly. Seeing him brought down again by his sister and then fighting for survival was quite nice. Then again I was a huge fanboy of that char. *shrug*

He's one of the good characters I mentioned and I agree.

Sandpit, on 08 January 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

quoted for chuckles lol

Ok back on topic.........

I have played quite a bit since yesterday evening. I used an AC20, I used an AC10. I tried to pay special attention to when they were being used to shoot at me. I HAVE noticed a little less "I'm gonna shoot you with my AC20 at 600 meters" being accurate. I've noticed a definite difference in how I have to adjust the AC10 in order to take longer ranged shots.

Overall I actually think adjusting the speeds was a small step in the right direction. Face to face right now an AC20 is a fearsome beast but not quite as much at extreme ranges now.
I think is they just pull down the 3x range and give us that to try out for a month combined with yesterday's adjustments we would see some shifts.

After that if there were still a huge disparity I think they should look into shortening the beam duration and then possibly at convergence loss when firing multiple big bore ballistics at once mentioned previously in this thread.

I think another thing all of us lose sight of sometimes is that we started really seriously discussing some of these adjustments just within the last week. We've all seen what happens when knee jerk reactions cause balance changes. This is going to be a long process whether they like our ideas or not.

After all of that if there's STILL a huge disparity between the two weapon types I'd look into other balancing options.

I'm all for that as a start. We just need to get the opportunity to test it out...