120 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

MonkeyCheese, on 10 December 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

Can't wait for small laser warrior!

Small Pulse Laser Warrior, engaged. 2 man premade, Hunch 4G Founder's + Commando 2D.


Another one from my perspective. 4 man premade. Hunch 4G Founder's is armed with 3 SPLs, LB-10x, 2 MGs.

Almost always lose the non-hunch side first.

46 right front torso armor. 2 right rear torso armor. The "Hunch" on all sides counts as front torso. "Rear" is a place the size of a Hunchback's fist just above the hip and below the back panel of the hunch.

Edited by Koniving, 14 December 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[Victor Morson]

6 Small Pulse Jenner is the best SPL use you can get.

[RLBell]

Victor Morson, on 12 December 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

This has been my last ten newbie help and guide threads.

Though in this case it's kind of reverse. Everyone in the competitive community loves the new strikes.

Pugs are making WAY WAY WAY too much of a deal of this. They are RARE events in casual games, because they cost so much to operate, most people don't want to pay in those types of matches. They're COMMON in 12 man games... but it's added a new layer of strategy and encourages new kinds of movement and defensive styles.

While they are rare in casual play, they do show up, in spades, when competitive players sync drop. I was on the other side in one of those situations and was hit by three artillery strikes (I suppose that it was only two, as I was already dead when the third landed). It was not that I was not moving around, but that every time an enemy light found me, it would add an arty strike to keep me from backing against terrain and shooting them with my lasers (as an LRM boater, I can appreciate the enemies' desire to keep me from supporting my team). The only reason that I am not just adding to the litany of grief is that despite all of the arty strikes dropped (and there were many), the sync droppers still managed to lose. However, it is a bit of a stretch to claim that I had fun.

[Dagnome]

Here's my opinion:

If your inability to maintain situational awareness makes you an easy target for a well placed arty or air strike then you deserve the 40 damage. Arty strike on my friends!

[RLBell]

Black Alexidor, on 13 December 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Remember people, there are 3 dicussions going on in this thread; the perspectives of: 4 mans / 12 man / 12 man competitive.

I freely admit that this is a whole other thread, but the three discussions are PUGs/ 4 mans/ and 12 man competitive. Because 12 man teams and 12 man competitive teams play in the same matchmaking pool and that pool is either small, or drying up (I have encountered the same twelve man group three times in a row), the 12 man groups either become competitive or stop playing 12 man.

[Victor Morson]

RLBell, on 14 December 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

While they are rare in casual play, they do show up, in spades, when competitive players sync drop.

This is really a bit of a myth and rarely happens; they're just as likely to be on opposing teams.

Likely you just hit a couple different premades that happened to be carrying them because we tend to carry strikes in organized games.

[Bront]

There's a couple points here.

1) Air strikes and Atry Strikes were not useful for a long time. They are now useful now, and them being useful in some fashion is probably good for game play overall.

2) As consumables, they're bound to get some resistance to play, so they do need to be somewhat useable but balanced as well.

3) The amount of damage they do combined with how often they can be dropped has resulted in 12 man drops where each side drops 24 of them (or tries to), as they have become powerful enough that they are required to be taken in a competitive drop.

#3 is the biggest concern and shows that they're not balanced. The combination of free damage, nearly unlimited range, and potentiall difficulty in spotting (drop one behind an Atlas or under an overpass, and the mechs may never know there's a strike coming) makes them a required item in competition, and something that favors players who have an abundance of (since they rarely make their cost back during use).

I know plenty of competitive players who hate that they're required, and while it has changed the meta, it's practically "Air-Strike Online" at times in some matches.

Potential fixes?
1) Drop the damage. 25 seems about right to me, but 20-30 is likely where the sweetspot is. I'd rather they drop it down to 30 and see what happens and then tweak it again from there.

2) Increase the cool down between shots. It's what, a 15 second counter in between shots before your team can fire a second one? It should be at least 30, if not a full blow minute. Heck, make them different, where an Air strike takes longer to refire but does more damage, while an arty strike resets faster but does less.

3) Require a command console to use the items. Sadly, this option punishes lights more than other mechs, but it now means you need to sacrifice something in your mech other than a module slot to take a strike, which will cut down on them a bit.

[Void Angel]

Artillery/Air strikes feel a bit too useful. I actually like their power, but getting hit by them over and over and over is just getting out of hand.

[Void Angel]

Dagnome, on 14 December 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Here's my opinion:

If your inability to maintain situational awareness makes you an easy target for a well placed arty or air strike then you deserve the 40 damage. Arty strike on my friends!

You can't keep "situational awareness" of strikes dropped behind you, or on the other side of a barrier so you can't see the smoke (airstrikes behind hills/buildings, the mezzanine in Crimson Straits, etc.) Nor can you really do much about an incoming strike in certain situations. In many cases, a large 'mech who's not already moving in a safe direction is literally incapable of avoiding the strike.

[Gremlich Johns]

JoeKidd, on 10 December 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

This game has gone from Mechwarrior to ArtyWarrior.

I do not agree. Even though I do not use them, they are now being used much more effectively than when they first were made available. If anything, I have started to see a vehement return of the LRM barrages.

If you don't like being the recipient of the artillery/airstrike, watch for the puff of reddish smoke and RUN AWAY!

Have any of you ever seen an ACTUAL air or arty strike? MW:O is letting you get away easy. A typical artillery strike is a battery six - usually 6 guns each firing 6 152mm HE Frag rounds (then there's always a rolling barrage, bracketing, standing barrage). Imagine if thermobarics/FAE were part of the strike! One 90kg FAE would do about the same damage to one mech.

this FAE video shows the blast effects of about a gallon of material

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 19 December 2013 - 05:11 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Void Angel, on 16 December 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

You can't keep "situational awareness" of strikes dropped behind you, or on the other side of a barrier so you can't see the smoke (airstrikes behind hills/buildings, the mezzanine in Crimson Straits, etc.) Nor can you really do much about an incoming strike in certain situations. In many cases, a large 'mech who's not already moving in a safe direction is literally incapable of avoiding the strike.

Yes you can. Have you ever played any squad-based tactical games?

If you're looking to dodge smoke, you're already too late. Situational awareness means naturally keeping moving, not massing up, not getting in areas they can be hit easily (strikes below you or above you, or against a back wall) - always aware of places they COULD strike against you, and avoiding them, and not holing down in them.

[Void Angel]

Gremlich Johns, on 19 December 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

I do not agree. Even though I do not use them, they are now being used much more effectively than when they first were made available. If anything, I have started to see a vehement return of the LRM barrages.

If you don't like being the recipient of the artillery/airstrike, watch for the puff of reddish smoke and RUN AWAY!

Have any of you ever seen an ACTUAL air or arty strike? MW:O is letting you get away easy. A typical artillery strike is a battery six - usually 6 guns each firing 6 152mm HE Frag rounds (then there's always a rolling barrage, bracketing, standing barrage). Imagine if thermobarics/FAE were part of the strike! One 90kg FAE would do about the same damage to one mech.

this FAE video shows the blast effects of about a gallon of material

Man, you're talking about a fictional universe where giant articulated robots are tougher than tanks - and are supposed to use structural materials that simply wouldn't support their massive weight anyway. We're talking game balance, anyway, not how cool real-world artillery is - pointing out how a fuel-air bomb or 155 barrage would be expected to affect improbably hypothetical war machines doesn't address that question.

As far as the "well, just move" argument - no. First, there are ways to hide the smoke so that it cannot be seen. The mezzanine in Crimson Strait comes to mind - as well as innumerable hillocks and buildings for airstrikes especially. Second, even when it isn't hidden, the marking smoke will often be dropped underneath you (outside your FOV) or behind you. And finally, while lights have no excuse for staying in a strike they can see, many 'mechs simply cannot accellerate fast enough to evade the strike effectively, especially if it is used in constricting terrain.

Essentially, IDF consumables feel a little too strong for something that has very little counter-play available. Certainly, you can disperse to limit their effectiveness, and maintain situational awareness to a certain extent, but you cannot avoid airstrikes in a slow chassis or in restrictive terrain - and all maps have, by design, places which are difficult to bypass and which also channelize movement.

That being said, they are not gamebreakingly strong - yes, competitive teams will use at least one in all or nearly all of their 'mechs, but the battles are still generally won and lost by maneuver and weapons fire.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 December 2013 - 05:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

Victor Morson, on 19 December 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Yes you can. Have you ever played any squad-based tactical games?

If you're looking to dodge smoke, you're already too late. Situational awareness means naturally keeping moving, not massing up, not getting in areas they can be hit easily (strikes below you or above you, or against a back wall) - always aware of places they COULD strike against you, and avoiding them, and not holing down in them.

Your opening salvo is to imply that I must lack experience since I disagree with you. When, after this amazing bit of arrogance, you do deign to begin addressing the issue, you don't deal with any of my points effectively. Instead, you talk in platitudes and generalities which ignore contrary facts - you're like a neo-Keynesian for MWO. Allow me to correct some of your misconceptions:

• If dodging smoke is "too late" (it isn't, except for large 'mechs,) you're saying that IDF consumables cannot be dodged. The best you can do is try to mitigate the effects of the strike when it inevitably hits you. This is like arguing that ECM was balanced before PPCS/TAG/BAP counterplay because "if you can't lock on, you're already too close to the ECM 'mech."
  
• On the same point, you're making the unsupportable assumption that people who watch for smoke (and are therefore aware of IDF consumables) are otherwise running around in a drooling mass, looking surprised when their juicy cluster of idiots gets artillery dropped on it. This isn't something you can convincingly claim - it's a faulty assumption that undermines your conclusion even further.
  
• Situational awareness isn't a magic wand - you cannot say "just be aware of all the places they can hit you," because the answer is, they can hit you almost anywhere. The only places that are safe from IDF are those with overhead cover.
  
• Tactical dispersion is only advantageous in certain circumstances. Tactical concerns such as constricting terrain and the need to close in order to employ most brawling weapons make dispersion unfeasible at critical points. You cannot "avoid" these places unless you're willing to camp on your base and wait out the enemy every single match. All of the maps are designed with cover, concealment, and restrictive terrain in order to make matches more interesting than standing in a huge arena shooting at each other. If you want to actually take the objectives in Assault/Conquest, you're going to have to deal with those bits of terrain - it's not feasible to just wave your hands and say, "avoid them."

The fact that Artillery strikes deal a huge amount of damage if employed properly makes their unlimited range, mere ten second team cooldown, and ability to drop rounds on targets they cannot see extremely effective. These modules are becoming required for any competitive play, and while, again, I don't feel they're game-breaking, I do understand people's frustration with them, and I agree that they need to be adjusted down a bit.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 December 2013 - 05:59 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Void Angel, on 19 December 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

Your opening salvo is to imply that I must lack experience since I disagree with you. When, after this amazing bit of arrogance, you do deign to begin addressing the issue, you don't deal with any of my points effectively. Instead, you talk in platitudes and generalities which ignore contrary facts - you're like a neo-Keynesian for MWO. Allow me to correct some of your misconceptions:

This should be good.

Void Angel, on 19 December 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

• If dodging smoke is "too late" (it isn't, except for large 'mechs,) you're saying that IDF consumables cannot be dodged. The best you can do is try to mitigate the effects of the strike when it inevitably hits you. This is like arguing that ECM was balanced before PPCS/TAG/BAP counterplay because "if you can't lock on, you're already too close to the ECM 'mech."

It's too late if that's ALL you are doing. To accelerate from a full stop once you see smoke = you're going to get hit. You need to be aware of your environment to avoid sitting around in smoke in the first place.

Void Angel, on 19 December 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

• On the same point, you're making the unsupportable assumption that people who watch for smoke (and are therefore aware of IDF consumables) are otherwise running around in a drooling mass, looking surprised when their juicy cluster of idiots gets artillery dropped on it. This isn't something you can convincingly claim - it's a faulty assumption that undermines your conclusion even further.

The bolded part describes just about 99.9% of pug games, honestly.

That said even in serious games people get clustered, and staying alert to it is the first step to avoiding getting hit.

Void Angel, on 19 December 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

• Situational awareness isn't a magic wand - you cannot say "just be aware of all the places they can hit you," because the answer is, they can hit you almost anywhere. The only places that are safe from IDF are those with overhead cover.

They have to have LOS to you. This is key. If you are in an area without LOS, the only way you can be hit is from above or below, and that is why situational awareness matters.

If you avoid LOS to the enemy, no problem. If you're charging the enemy... no problem too, because you're moving and can evade. if you're standing around in a hittable area, you get what you get.

Void Angel, on 19 December 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

• Tactical dispersion is only advantageous in certain circumstances. Tactical concerns such as constricting terrain and the need to close in order to employ most brawling weapons make dispersion unfeasible at critical points. You cannot "avoid" these places unless you're willing to camp on your base and wait out the enemy every single match. All of the maps are designed with cover, concealment, and restrictive terrain in order to make matches more interesting than standing in a huge arena shooting at each other. If you want to actually take the objectives in Assault/Conquest, you're going to have to deal with those bits of terrain - it's not feasible to just wave your hands and say, "avoid them."

You can access and shoot at all areas of the maps from safe spots, and the few exceptions SHOULD be avoided. You don't need to go into bad terrain, to fire on bad terrain. It doesn't limit your ability to navigate, it just changes it - you steer for the low ground hills, not the rocky cliffs, because the rocky cliffs can have strikes called on them. The rolling hills can't.

Void Angel, on 19 December 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

The fact that Artillery strikes deal a huge amount of damage if employed properly makes their unlimited range, mere ten second team cooldown, and ability to drop rounds on targets they cannot see extremely effective. These modules are becoming required for any competitive play, and while, again, I don't feel they're game-breaking, I do understand people's frustration with them, and I agree that they need to be adjusted down a bit.

Again it's a case of "If it's so great, why aren't you using it?" The same mentality that makes people think LRMs are overpowered, because they have no idea how to deal with them.

I blame PGi for not giving all these newbies that have no proper MP mechwarrior experience a proper tutorial.

Void Angel, on 19 December 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

That being said, they are not gamebreakingly strong - yes, competitive teams will use at least one in all or nearly all of their 'mechs, but the battles are still generally won and lost by maneuver and weapons fire.

"Anything that is good should be nerfed."

[Void Angel]

Victor Morson, on 19 December 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

It's too late if that's ALL you are doing. To accelerate from a full stop once you see smoke = you're going to get hit. You need to be aware of your environment to avoid sitting around in smoke in the first place.

You're confusing "aware of your environment" with "possessing ESP." You can't just randomly always be moving - there are times when you need to be more or less stationary, such as holding a pass; nor is being in motion enough when you have to go through constricting terrain in order to achieve mission objectives.

Victor Morson, on 19 December 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

They have to have LOS to you. This is key. If you are in an area without LOS, the only way you can be hit is from above or below, and that is why situational awareness matters.

If you avoid LOS to the enemy, no problem. If you're charging the enemy... no problem too, because you're moving and can evade. if you're standing around in a hittable area, you get what you get.

Error is a poor basis for forming opinions - as is illiteracy. If you're not going to read contrary opinions, at least be honest and say so - don't play the cut-and-quote game and make things up. I've explained in a previous post on this thread how indirect fire can be used despite line of sight - especially artillery strikes. They don't have to ever even see you. A single light camped in the lee side of a building can blast you with an airstrike without your ever seeing a enemy or having warning at all. All they have to know is where you are, and they can drop strikes on you - and getting LoS for the half-second it takes to drop infinite-range smoke isn't terribly hard to begin with.

Then there's your inexplicable error that "it's fine if you're charging." Breaking up a charge is one of the major uses of artillery and airstrikes... I have to question the validity of your opinion when you demonstrate that you're not completely familiar with how these modules work and are used.

You've really failed to address any of my criticisms - you've mostly succeeded in restating your opinions, or stamping your foot and saying "nuh-uh!" to my points. Not terribly effective arguments, but then...

Victor Morson, on 19 December 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

"Anything that is good should be nerfed."

Remember I mentioned illiteracy? This last is not even possibly an honest paraphrase of the quote you're misrepresenting - you seem to have just wanted something to put in a quote box before you trotted out the tired "you just want it nerfed because it's good" straw man fallacy. The quote you're abusing says, "despite their advantages and feeling a bit too strong, they're not the game-breaking superweapon some people claim." Compare that paraphrase to yours, and ask yourself which is more honest.

You don't seem to have any idea how this "arguing" thing works - you have to give reasons, rather than skimming critics' posts and then throwing out whatever comes to mind. It's not enough just to throw up a straw man - you have to at least try to support the lie, or you just end up looking foolish.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 December 2013 - 11:47 PM.

[Castiel88]

I play mainly PUG matches and rarely see them used, I however always run with arty/airstrike. I've had people use them on me in my atlas which is fast enough to get away, and when using them I've had people walk off cliffs, do a full reverse or jumpjet up above the shells to avoid damage, Not OP at all as the red smoke is quite hard to miss and gives you enough time to get away.
Am amazed at how few people use them in PUG matches

[SpiralFace]

Arty's will be less usefull once drop limits come in.

Part of the issue in premades is that EVERYONE drops heavy. So even if you see the smoke, your going to get pegged because you are too slow to escape.

when the average tonnage drops to 50-55, all of a sudden, you are much more mobile. You can't just drop one in the ball of assaults and accumulate massive damage numbers. You will have to account that people are going to be MUCH more mobile. Which in turn will see their usefulness decline steeply unless you are just not paying attention.

To that end, the "Fix" is on the way. We don't have to do anything to arty strikes because the fundamental issues around them are going to be naturally addressed through a shift in the metta on other fronts.

[Reubot]

Void Angel, on 19 December 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

All they have to know is where you are, and they can drop strikes on you - and getting LoS for the half-second it takes to drop infinite-range smoke isn't terribly hard to begin with.

And here lies the problem with the AS. There is little to no risk in using it, and there is nothing the recieving side can do to prevent it from being used. This goes against game design 101, and is sure to cause frustration in the recieving end, as can be witnessed in this thread.

Simple solution: Make the player dropping the AS have to hold a TAG equivalent at the desired position for a certain time in order for the strike to succeed. This balances the risk/reward factor and gives the opposing team a chance to prevent it from happening.

AND MAKE THE TARGETTING LASER VISIBLE IN NV/HV

Edited by Reubot, 20 December 2013 - 08:08 AM.

[Void Angel]

I actually just think that the cooldown between strikes needs to be longer. Though some kind of added counterplay would be nice, I'm not sure what would work without causing more problems - and the system is close to well-balanced as it is. But remember, the new IDF modules are relatively new, and like everything else, PGI is constantly collecting data and will tweak them from time to time if they feel the strikes are being too disruptive.

PS: PuGs don't largely forgo IDF strikes because they're not useful. PuGs tend to avoid them because they're expensive. The c-bill cost of a strike will eat up a significant portion of profits even on a good game, and heaven help you if you have a bad one. Players who are still working on grinding up their 'mechs will be much less likely to use the strikes, while people who've ground out everything they want will be far more willing. This means that airstrikes are harder on new players than they are on those of us who have been around longer.

Edited by Void Angel, 20 December 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Bront]

Arty/Air needs a few fixes.

1) Cool down between them needs to be longer. 10 seconds isn't enough. 30 would be better and prevent the constant barrage.

2) Drops should be required to be seen from the open air. Otherwise, folks under the garage on Crimson Straits or in the center HPG chamber on HPG can use seismic to detect mechs, and drop a strike on top of them they have no chance of seeing, much less reacting to in time. How's an airstrike supposed to see the market when it's underground?

3) I think the damage may be a little too high, but play with the first 2 options first, and then lower the damage to 30 if it's still an issue.