120 replies to this topic

[3rdworld]

Something I find rather ironic:

PGI removed LRMs as fire and forget because it takes absolutely zero skill.
Then adds back fire and forget modules which, aside from a few patches, are more powerful than LRMs have ever been.

Edited by 3rdworld, 12 December 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[Madara Uchiha]

first they where too weak. Now too strong...they seem just fine to me, its not like the red smoke isnt a huge indication to get the hell out of the way.

[Jonathan Paine]

Arty/Air strike should be part of role warfare, and are excellent candidates for giving the COMMAND CONSOLE something to do.
1. Spotter designates target (gets bonus XP&Cbills)
2. Commander w Command Console authorizes strike (and wow, now you actually have to give up a little tonnage&crit to do damage!!!)
3. BOOM!

Any random **** calling in a couple of strikes every match is silly.

[juxstapo]

[sigh] Just as soon as someone suffers some aggro from a weapon, it's OP and breaking the game.
I have to join the legion of white knights who say Arty is just right now. I love it.

[Victor Morson]

3rdworld, on 12 December 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Something I find rather ironic:

PGI removed LRMs as fire and forget because it takes absolutely zero skill.
Then adds back fire and forget modules which, aside from a few patches, are more powerful than LRMs have ever been.

[Araara]

I have multiple times being able to kill 2-3 mechs + do upward to 500 damage by using both artillery strike and airstrike in pug games (without shooting my Mlasers, because i was capping).

Now think of that in comp games, where 1 kill is enough to shift the balance of a game. Heck, just think of it in terms of damage numbers alone if you're a math cruncher.


I think they are great modules to have but at the rate/damage/whatever they're at now, it might be a bit much...


Are you really going to disregard that with just a youtube video of arnold ?

Edited by Araara, 12 December 2013 - 05:32 PM.

[RamsoPanzer]

I think that there are many players here that dont feel safe anymore while doing their meatballs and jump-sniping due to the airstrikes. I think thats the point of this thread, and that proves that airstrikes are well balanced.

Edited by RamsoPanzer, 12 December 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[Hexenhammer]

Edited by Hexenhammer, 12 December 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Black Alexidor]

This thread in a nutshell:

Competitive Community: "It's unbalanced for reason x, y, z. Here is the proof and data."

Casual Community: "Don't listen to those whiners, they don't know how to play the game!"

Edited by Black Alexidor, 12 December 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Black Alexidor, on 12 December 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

This thread in a nutshell:

Competitive Community: "It's unbalanced for reason x, y, z. Here is the proof and data."

Casual Community: "Don't listen to those whiners, they don't know how to play the game!"

This has been my last ten newbie help and guide threads.

Though in this case it's kind of reverse. Everyone in the competitive community loves the new strikes.

Pugs are making WAY WAY WAY too much of a deal of this. They are RARE events in casual games, because they cost so much to operate, most people don't want to pay in those types of matches. They're COMMON in 12 man games... but it's added a new layer of strategy and encourages new kinds of movement and defensive styles.

Long story short: Any pug that gets taken out by one of these things wants to scream murder about them, in particular if they hated the concept of consumables and strikes in advance; a sizable number of people here (check past polls) hate the whole concept and will be made if they do anything.

Your odds of getting taken out by an AC/20 headshot in any given pug match are about 500 times higher than you meeting your fate to an artillery strike headshot. In serious games where the que is literally MAXED for half the match, you see this happen maybe once out of every 15 games.

This is serious, serious QQ and nothing more. Mostly given by people who like to park & shoot, and don't think to check for walls near them that attacks can bounce off of.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 December 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[aniviron]

Rushin Roulette, on 11 December 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Yup. everyone loved Gaussapults... but they were later... before the fastback laserhunchies we had the fastback flamerhunchies... ahh, the memories at what redicoulous things were and are stupidly OP...

I really think MWO is the only MW game where at one point, the Flamers, MGs or Spider mechs were overpowered. Its like comparing a Smart to a F1 racing car and seriously saying that the Smart is overpowered...

You must not have used flamers in MW2. Three or four consecutive hits on an enemy was essentially a guaranteed kill, assuming you could survive the heat buildup yourself.

[Selbatrim]

That is nonsense Victor. Yes, a lot of us have been against arty air and consumables since the beginning but are not a campers or jumpsnipers. The problem is not having arty and air etc but that they are no weight, no crit slot items. I pug a lot. I have tested running arty and air and can say they skew the chances of winning in my teams favour. Even if i drop it on only one enemy mech.

It needs to stop being a consumable item. That mechanic is a c-bill/mc sink at best. It favours established players with plenty of money (and extra module slots). It should be using the command console or similar and the us of them a tactical team weapon and not a 40k magic nuke button.

The only reason they are currently not seen a lot in pug games is either because the pilot is grinding, newbie or a purist.

I've tried them, I think they amount to an easy mode and I will not use them in their current incarnation unless it is to boat in a group to make more players understand that 24 (or 48) strikes per match is not fun or better or adds a layer but detrimental to the mech on mech jousting this game should be about.

Criticizing/questioning this is not QQ and players should be allowed to vent.

Edited by Selbatrim, 13 December 2013 - 01:15 AM.

[Araara]

Victor Morson, on 12 December 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

This has been my last ten newbie help and guide threads.

Though in this case it's kind of reverse. Everyone in the competitive community loves the new strikes.

Pugs are making WAY WAY WAY too much of a deal of this. They are RARE events in casual games, because they cost so much to operate, most people don't want to pay in those types of matches. They're COMMON in 12 man games... but it's added a new layer of strategy and encourages new kinds of movement and defensive styles.

Long story short: Any pug that gets taken out by one of these things wants to scream murder about them, in particular if they hated the concept of consumables and strikes in advance; a sizable number of people here (check past polls) hate the whole concept and will be made if they do anything.

Your odds of getting taken out by an AC/20 headshot in any given pug match are about 500 times higher than you meeting your fate to an artillery strike headshot. In serious games where the que is literally MAXED for half the match, you see this happen maybe once out of every 15 games.

This is serious, serious QQ and nothing more. Mostly given by people who like to park & shoot, and don't think to check for walls near them that attacks can bounce off of.

I think you're missing the main point of all the artillery/air strikes that came before that though. I sincerely doubt that anyone dislike the concept of artillery / airstrike as an area denial tool or as a concept to force someone to move around.

What people do doubt though is how efficient those strikes are for what they cost / require in skills. Like noted before in this thread :


1) It's a module that costs c-bill. Anyone can buy it and use it. (Yes, it's a c-bill sink but that's another discussion and does not do anything to the use of strikes)

2) It's a point and click with infinite range and perfect accuracy.

3) It's spammable after a short general cooldown.

4) Every shell right now does splash damage and a whopping 40 damage per shell. (dude seriously, get hit with only 1 shell splash and thats like receiving 2-4 medium lasers to a specific part. That is freaking nuts.)

5) Mostly RNG and thus, can 1 shot cockpit you and or completely disarm you if unlucky enough.



Like you say, it does encourage new movement patterns but it does not "add" layers of strategy, it merely changes the current murderball strategy to a more spread out one. Since everyone equip those modules in comp play it restricts the use of certain strategies (camping and murderballing to an extent), but doesn't add to the depth of the game in it's current form.

It's a small nuance but an extremely important one to the "meta" of competitive 12v12. If they were to make it more difficult to use and/or would tweak the usage of it to a more acceptable level (so that it is not REQUIRED but more an option to diversify your available strategies), then yes, strikes will be quite the interesting component for a strategic game like MWO.


But right now, like most competitive players know/realize, you can't go around it. Gotta equip those modules even though most know they might not even be able to use them because of instant spamming once cooldown is off. It's THAT much more powerful compared to the other modules.

[Victor Morson]

Selbatrim, on 12 December 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

That is nonsense Victor. Yes, a lot of us have been against arty air and consumables since the beginning but are not a campers or jumpsnipers. The problem is not having arty and air etc but that they are no weight, no crit slot items.

Victor Morson, on 12 December 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

Long story short: Any pug that gets taken out by one of these things wants to scream murder about them, in particular if they hated the concept of consumables and strikes in advance; a sizable number of people here (check past polls) hate the whole concept and will be mad if they do anything.

I think all you did is prove my point.

You don't like the system, so you accuse it of being OP.

Edited by Victor Morson, 12 December 2013 - 11:47 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Araara, on 12 December 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

1) It's a module that costs c-bill. Anyone can buy it and use it. (Yes, it's a c-bill sink but that's another discussion and does not do anything to the use of strikes)

At a considerable cost that will actually net them massive losses, sure. People only take these for serious games, to practice for serious games, or because they're rich and it's amusing.

Araara, on 12 December 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

2) It's a point and click with infinite range and perfect accuracy.

As opposed to a clickable icon on the map with perfect accuracy?

Granted, I'd like that UI better, but that's the whole point. It's an ARTILLERY strike, not a weapon system. It should have unlimited range.

Also if you're trying to imply it's super easy to use, it's sure is not. Not to get the most use out of it anyway. Maybe to lightly splash one guy or something anyone can do, but to land those team-busting hits takes as much skill as any other element in the game.

Araara, on 12 December 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

3) It's spammable after a short general cooldown.

If it was any slower, it would not be area denial. The fact that they can keep being used one after another is how they deny areas. If you take that away from them, they go right back to being complete garbage.

Also this never happens in pug games. You don't have 12 people with strikes ready to go there. You're lucky if MAYBE You have a 4 man premade with 4 strikes, tops.

Araara, on 12 December 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

4) Every shell right now does splash damage and a whopping 40 damage per shell. (dude seriously, get hit with only 1 shell splash and thats like receiving 2-4 medium lasers to a specific part. That is freaking nuts.)

Oh no, not 4 medium lasers.

Seriously, this amount of damage is PERFECT. It's punishing, but not too bad; it's mostly avoidable and most of the time you don't take direct hits at all anyway.

Araara, on 12 December 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

5) Mostly RNG and thus, can 1 shot cockpit you and or completely disarm you if unlucky enough.

Unlucky =/= Standing in smoke.

Araara, on 12 December 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Like you say, it does encourage new movement patterns but it does not "add" layers of strategy, it merely changes the current murderball strategy to a more spread out one.

Since everyone equip those modules in comp play it restricts the use of certain strategies (camping and murderballing to an extent), but doesn't add to the depth of the game in it's current form.

If you don't think it adds a new layer of strategy you don't play in organized games, period. It's done a TON to shake up everything there. If they were weaker, it'd be right back to status quo.

Araara, on 12 December 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

It's a small nuance but an extremely important one to the "meta" of competitive 12v12. If they were to make it more difficult to use and/or would tweak the usage of it to a more acceptable level (so that it is not REQUIRED but more an option to diversify your available strategies), then yes, strikes will be quite the interesting component for a strategic game like MWO.

But right now, like most competitive players know/realize, you can't go around it. Gotta equip those modules even though most know they might not even be able to use them because of instant spamming once cooldown is off. It's THAT much more powerful compared to the other modules.

There's more modules coming in that will no doubt be powerful as well. It is the way of things. I have a feeling most things that are worthwhile from here out will be consumables.

The last two non-consumable models were complete jokes. The climbing one just impacting deceleration speed is hilarious, because it doesn't do jack; and the gyro one only gets rid of the visual shake, for complete and total newbies only.

By contrast, we've got Coolant, 9 by 9, Strikes and possibly deployable turrets in the future.

[Selbatrim]

I have NEVER accused it of being op. I accuse it of being detrimental to gameplay and that 24 per team is too many. I accuse it of being a nuke button. I do not suffer greatly from it but I think it could be done MUCH better. And I think PGI implemented them (and the rest of consumables) for no good reason, only bad ones.

[Victor Morson]

Selbatrim, on 12 December 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

I have NEVER accused it of being op. I accuse it of being detrimental to gameplay and that 24 per team is too many. I accuse it of being a nuke button. I do not suffer greatly from it but I think it could be done MUCH better. And I think PGI implemented them (and the rest of consumables) for no good reason, only bad ones.

Why the huge quote?

Because this needs to be the headline on every artillery whine on the forums.

The people who are crying for them to be cut back are doing so because they do not like the concept of them and not because of how they actually impact gameplay.

This, right here, is why their complaints are ultimately one-sided before they even begin.

[Selbatrim]

Yes, please do not highlight that I think they could be implemented differently. No, highlight that last bit out of context, that'll work much better.

Consumables are SINKS, puff potions and scrolls. Give me artillery, give me airstrikes, give me coolant pods but

DO IT DIFFERENTLY.

[Black Alexidor]

Victor Morson is either trolling or just completely oblivious.

He is missing the point entirely and Im sure he will respond to this in some long winded subjective answer that doesn't help this conversation move forward in any respect and will degrade into personal attacks like he has been (all the "stop QQ'ing")

Victor if you have anything relevant to this argument instead of your own misguided attempts to pervert this thread, please do so, though I really don't think you do. I know what teams you have played for and where you are currently playing. You may think you have your finger on this pulse of this discussion, but all you are doing is making it sound like that finger is jammed up your butt (sorry to get personal but your 'counter arguments' are soooooooooo ridiculous and you are arguing with people who aren't even talking about what you are talking about).

Remember people, there are 3 dicussions going on in this thread; the perspectives of: 4 mans / 12 man / 12 man competitive.

ps - forums will be forums, we try to help move to community forward with proper information, but the masses come out to nay say and show their "information" without knowing what subjectivity is.

Edited by Black Alexidor, 13 December 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[NuclearPanda]

Werewolf486, on 11 December 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I think they need to be restricted to certain scout units and not any mech in the game.

Absolutely not. It's a consumable. It costs CBills to use. They're easy enough to avoid being hit with.