85 replies to this topic

[xengk]

Set back to 4.
I missed surgically removing enemy torso and limbs while they are fighting my team's atlas.

BJ-3 Breadknife
This mech used to be my top killer before ghost heat was introduced, chain firing the 4 LLaz simply doesn't have the same effect.

Ghost Heat and Heat Scale will suffer the same problem, as long as it is not communicated to the player in the UI/Mechlab, it will be poorly understand by none BT veteran.
People will think it is a bug when their mech slow down after firing 2 PPCs or why their mech sometime shutdown before reaching full heat capacity.

[Lyoto Machida]

divinedisclaimer, on 11 December 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

As someone who regularly does 500+ damage with only 4 LL's (two are ERLL's!) you have seriously no idea what you're asking for.

Bottom line? Lasers are harder to use than ballistics, so you think they need buffed. Handled correctly, they're perfectly fine.

I do agree the cap could be 3 without breaking anything, but making it 4 would be pointless: that's as many as you can ever use in the first place.

Great...so you're inaccurate with your 4 LLs regularly. What else does your post prove?

Trauglodyte, on 11 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

You still haven't explained why 4 is the right number. 3 sounds right along with an increase in the Ghost Heat tax (done because they expanded the number), especially given the fact that Lrg Pulse Lasers are also grouped with regular Large Lasers.

I thought it was already determined that three shall be the number thou shall count and the number of the counting shall be three...

[Nryrony]

The real issue with energy weapons is the poor cooling efficency of our heatsinks.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

If ghost heat is actually here to stay...


...Make the LL cap at 3, then have a MINOR heat penalty like of 4-5 heat for the 4th. Most mechs who boat 4-6 LL have enough heat sinks to make the difference.

[Karl Streiger]

Well - 3 Large Laser in a single salvo shouldn't be a problem. Actually they have the same heat - as they are supposed to have (8 for each) - so 12 DHS should cool your Mech in a 10sec frame (DING DING...ok i forgot about 1.4 - > 13 DHS)

Just for the protocol - > MWO is the most counterintuitive heat system of all MechGames I ever played.

[OneEyed Jack]

Joseph Mallan, on 11 December 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

The DEVs did not think through their Ghost Heat limits to well as many Mechs carry more than their knee jerk response to Alphas!

They didn't think the LIMITS through well? Pray tell, dear sir, exactly which parts of it did they think through well?

Azargo, on 11 December 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

In a game with dynamic heat cap raised by heatsinks, GH should exist to prevent massive alphas.

If you think GH actually prevents massive alphas, or does anything at all besides punish weapons that don't need it, you haven't been paying attention.

[Joseph Mallan]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 December 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

They didn't think the LIMITS through well? Pray tell, dear sir, exactly which parts of it did they think through well?

I was attempting to be be kind Jack. The topic is on # of weapons.

[OneEyed Jack]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 December 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

I was attempting to be be kind Jack. The topic is on # of weapons.

To hell with kind. Stupid should be painful.

[Joseph Mallan]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 December 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

To hell with kind. Stupid should be painful.

It is Jack, it just takes time for the pain to register.

[Mathies Jaeger]

I seriously doubt whether ghost heat is even necessary these days to prevent high-alpha builds. If it was removed today, with the heat increases for PPC/ErPPC, gauss rifle charge time, and minimum range on PPC, I highly doubt you would see a return to 4/6 PPC builds or PPC/Gauss builds. And while I know many will disagree with me here, I didn't see any of the other builds currently hindered by ghost heat as a problem. Four/five large lasers was fun for sure, effective in the right hands, but never felt cheap or unfair. I miss having the 6 SRM 6 A1s around (hell, at this point I miss having SRMs actually hit). LRMs already require so much sacrifice to make decent; I'd rather they not have to deal with ghost heat on top of that.

All I see ghost heat doing is arbitrarily limiting the builds that are capable of being played and tinkered with. I miss the variety of builds that used to be possible. I want to have mechs on the field that when you see their load-out, you fear them and have to fight appropriately, lest they eat you up and spit you out (did I mention I miss the splat-cats?). Mech builds today might be more "diverse" in that more weapon systems are being utilized, but it feels more homogeneous to me in that all the mechs feel like they play pretty much the same as any other.

/rantoff

[OneEyed Jack]

People still wet their pants at the thought of Splatcats, despite the fact that even if hit-reg was fixed and SRMs worked, without the totally borked splash damage they were doing, and at a reduced base damage, they'd never be anything compared to what they were.

[Joseph Mallan]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 December 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

People still wet their pants at the thought of Splatcats, despite the fact that even if hit-reg was fixed and SRMs worked, without the totally borked splash damage they were doing, and at a reduced base damage, they'd never be anything compared to what they were.

Strange i salivate when i see an enemy Splatcat! It's another chance to kill the boogieman!

[OneEyed Jack]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 December 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:

Strange i salivate when i see an enemy Splatcat! It's another chance to kill the boogieman!

Saw one the other night, for the first time in awhile, and immediately dismissed it as a non-factor in the match.


Guy must have not been playing in awhile. Six 6-packs and he didn't even have Artemis.

[Joseph Mallan]

OneEyed Jack, on 13 December 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

Saw one the other night, for the first time in awhile, and immediately dismissed it as a non-factor in the match.


Guy must have not been playing in awhile. Six 6-packs and he didn't even have Artemis.

Oh the Humanity!

[Lyoto Machida]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 December 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

It is Jack, it just takes time for the pain to register.

Soon™.

[Watchit]

I would be happy with LL's at least getting buffed to 3 before ghost heat

[MischiefSC]

This will never happen. Lasers that don't suck area a threat to the PPC/AC meta, which for the last 2 years is exactly what has been carefully constructed by PGI.

Russ/Paul like the poptart meta. They try to nerf it just enough that everyone doesn't ***** constantly but that pinpoint PPC/AC combo meta, they like that a lot. They left PPCs at god-tier until riots started. Then they nerfed them some but you'll notice they nerfed the crap out of laser boating in quantity to be a threat to the AC/PPC meta at about the same time.

The game, as it is right now where it's pretty much all about PPC+ACs, this is the game PGI wants to make. They have no interest in anything else being viable. Any tme something else threatens the PPC/AC meta it gets the crap nerfed out of it.

I realize that this sounds a bit wacky, but seriously look at the history of 'balancing' in this game. Right now Highlanders and Victors are pretty much top of the hill. Why? Best AC/PPC setup for assaults with best hitboxes. JJs add poptarting to this but without it, put a Victor against a Stalker and see what happens. Even a Misery (which can mix the AC/PPC meta).

This is what all their balance decisions are geared towards. PPC+AC meta. If that's not what you want then every update to the games mechanics is going to just depress you.

[Khobai]

Not only is ghost heat itself a terrible game mechanic but the way it was implemented doesnt make any sense either.

Can run four AC/5s without ANY ghost heat... and each AC/5 is equal to one-and-a-half large lasers in terms of dps.

Can only run two large lasers without ghost heat.

Ghost heat needs to be completely removed and weapons need to be balanced in more intuitive ways that dont require highschool level math and data tables to explain to players.

Edited by Khobai, 18 February 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[Rhent]

divinedisclaimer, on 11 December 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

As someone who regularly does 500+ damage with only 4 LL's (two are ERLL's!) you have seriously no idea what you're asking for.

Bottom line? Lasers are harder to use than ballistics, so you think they need buffed. Handled correctly, they're perfectly fine.

I do agree the cap could be 3 without breaking anything, but making it 4 would be pointless: that's as many as you can ever use in the first place.

No, No, No:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6819697b7bb1e5a

When playing against scrubs who don't torso turn, then yes 3 or 4 LL would be overpowered. Why? Because the scrubs are allowing someone to do 36 pts of damage in one section that could have been very easilly changed to 9 pts of damage in 3 sections.

In reality, the average player as soon as he gets hits turns to the target spreading the damage around and then continues turning to spread the LL laser damage around. Assuming the large laser does its damage in 5 pulses of damage, if you are sporting 5 LL you will do between 9-18 pts of damage to the armor panel you want while spreading the other damage if your target is doing adequate torso turning.

I can understand ghost heat being added to the LL to help people who have less than 5 hours playing the game. However, the average player quickly learns about torso turning and easily trivializes LL.

I still love playing my LL boat. I love racking up 700+ damage on that heat monstrosity. However, it is not a killing machine that a 2PPC + 2AC5 killer is. Of course, if I could fire 5 LL a blast, then it comes close to the 2PPC + 2AC5 for killing and damage efficiency. But that is too hard for the game developers to understand how people actually play the game.

[o0Marduk0o]

Khobai, on 18 February 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Not only is ghost heat itself a terrible game mechanic but the way it was implemented doesnt make any sense either.

Can run four AC/5s without ANY ghost heat... and each AC/5 is equal to one-and-a-half large lasers in terms of dps.

Can only run two large lasers without ghost heat.

And the AC weight more, take more slots and need ammo. Not saying that the balance is right, but your example is lacking facts.

It is not working as intended to fire 4 or more LL for any mech. Same for other weapon systems.
Ghost heat is not there to balance every weapon because heat alone can't balance everything.
The ability to hit the same spot with all weapons for high alpha dmg is the problem.
What you guys want is to do the same with lasers and this is plain wrong and no reasonable solution for the imbalance.