94 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 12 December 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

That thing would be focus-fired to death in seconds, even with doubled armor and internals. It would just be too huge and too slow to avoid anything, and would have particular troubles against LRMs.

1200+ points of armor 3 Gauss, 2 LB-10X... Convergence issues! Scary!

[Alcom Isst]

FupDup, on 12 December 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

That thing would be focus-fired to death in seconds, even with doubled armor and internals. It would just be too huge and too slow to avoid anything, and would have particular troubles against LRMs.

You made Corner Omega Sad.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 December 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

1200+ points of armor 3 Gauss, 2 LB-10X... Convergence issues! Scary!

That armor isn't mounted in a single location, so a lot of it won't even matter. The damage will be focused almost entirely on the RT, LT, and CT. Each of those locations mounts an explodable Gauss Rifle to help them blow up faster. The 2 LBX aren't very intimidating with MWO's implementation of them. Sure, smacking people with 4-5 Gauss would be awesome, but the downsides heavily outweigh the upsides for this mech.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 12 December 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

That armor isn't mounted in a single location, so a lot of it won't even matter. The damage will be focused almost entirely on the RT, LT, and CT. Each of those locations mounts an explodable Gauss Rifle to help them blow up faster. The 2 LBX aren't very intimidating with MWO's implementation of them. Sure, smacking people with 4-5 Gauss would be awesome, but the downsides heavily outweigh the upsides for this mech.

Maybe. Bu I would love to drive one a few times!

[HammerSwarm]

None, the mechs are not the problem

You could have a mech with 10 ballistic hard points and it would not be game breaking. Why? Ballistic weapons produce more heat and use ammo. Now if your using the current maps and current game modes as the basis for your analysis I can see your arguement.

The problem isn't the mechs it's the game

12 on 12 always has two sides with roughly the same amount of ammo going both ways.

Once we get to game modes where your ammo matters because using it all firing into the horizon at a dot in your 4x zoom matters somewhat more than what you do for the next 15 minutes it'll swing back the other way faster than a door.

For example the Boom Jager can't possibly carry enough ammo that they could go 2 missions without reloading.

If we ever get a CW campaign where the amount of ammo for 2+ missions is limited by the cargo capacity of your drop ship you'll see silly ballistic builds go the way of the dinosaur and end up where they belong, in a Solaris arena.

FupDup, on 12 December 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

That thing would be focus-fired to death in seconds, even with doubled armor and internals. It would just be too huge and too slow to avoid anything, and would have particular troubles against LRMs.

This is the argument against over powered king crabs also. Engine cap them at 325 or 350 and watch them melt before that A/C 20 becomes an issue.

[Tombstoner]

This guy http://www.sarna.net...ne_%28Kraken%29

i realize the op stated no clan tech but this mech really underscores the issue PGI has with clan tech and letting players change hard points. the unintended consequence of magical levels of accuracy.

20 points of pinpoint damage every .5 seconds ghost heat be damned. 80 damage in 2 seconds.

HammerSwarm, on 12 December 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

You could have a mech with 10 ballistic hard points and it would not be game breaking. Why? Ballistic weapons produce more heat and use ammo.

Heat and ammo only mater when your facing more then one opponent - one on one your dead before it maters.

[Shadey99]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 December 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

Umm an Assault 'Mech can carry 35+ tons of weapons... Just sayin.

The Firestarrter is an undersized jump jetting energy Hunchie... Which also runs a similar number of energy harpoints, but is 15 tons heavier...

William Mountbank, on 12 December 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

OK, ok, I admit the 35t Firestarter with 7 MLs and ECM is completely underpowered compared to all those 6 PPC Jenners, but it would still break MWO for light pilots.

A more practical Firestarter is 4xML & 3xSL or even 5xSL+2xML. The reasons for this are heat and weight limits. The Firestarter also maxes in MWO at a 295 or 300 (depending on how they choose to round it), so it is not even as fast as a Jenner (Though the difference is small). It would give the Jenner competition, but it's going to run much hotter.

Now as for the King Crab... I don't think dual AC20s with a single Missile hardpoint and a single energy hardpoint as backups is game breaking. The Crab is a wide mech unlike the Stalker so those pesky side torsos become a big target (or it has a massively huge CT which is also an issue). Besides that a 2xAC20+2xML Jager carries the same sort of firepower, while being faster (If it runs an XL). The only advantage the King Crab would hold over the Jager is higher max armor and internals, so it can take that extra abuse it will get.

The Mauler is not so 'awesome' either. It has massively tall shoulders and low mounted ballistics, so it will be shooting from the waist. Even if it mounts dual AC20s not much else can fit in those torso slots (maybe a pair of MGs or some SRMs). It is sort of feasable it could run 2xPPC+2xAC20 for a 60 point mid-range 'alpha', but doing so is going to be massively hot. In fact it can do so once, doing so twice immediately shutsdown the mech. And that is without moving. It's best bet is quad UAC5s, which will 'only' weigh 36 tons without ammo, though it runs 'fairly cool'. We already see Cataphract & Jager builds along those lines as well as quad AC5s. I don't think an assault mech carrying the same load is going to be that devastating to game play, especially since all the heavy ballistics builds require a standard engine.

Btw 4xAC2s is not going to be a threat, even 3xAC2 runs very hot. 4xAC2 is not currently a functional build for more than a couple of seconds.

Now clan mechs, especially ones like the Daishi and Kraken, are a whole different story.

Edited by Shadey99, 12 December 2013 - 12:31 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

HammerSwarm, on 12 December 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

For example the Boom Jager can't possibly carry enough ammo that they could go 2 missions without reloading.

If we ever get a CW campaign where the amount of ammo for 2+ missions is limited by the cargo capacity of your drop ship you'll see silly ballistic builds go the way of the dinosaur and end up where they belong, in a Solaris arena.

So, how much spare armour, reactor cores and weapons will you bring to get your mech repaired after the first round?

If ballistics are really superior in 1 mission environments, then they'll use that 1st mission to rip you apart. WHy don't they get to refill their ammo if you get to fix your crippled mechs afterwards?

Ammo is a logistics concern, but considering that mechs constantly lose armour and items inside them (even if you don't die), it's hardly the only one.

[FupDup]

HammerSwarm, on 12 December 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

This is the argument against over powered king crabs also. Engine cap them at 325 or 350 and watch them melt before that A/C 20 becomes an issue.

A 350 engine cap is as high as you need for a 100 tonner, anything 300 or above is ideal for that weight. That's ~60 something KPH, which is fairly slow but not even close to as slow as the Omega (which would go 35.6 kph with stock engine and speed tweak). The KC also would likely have a much more squat profile (like the Stalker) than the Omega.

Edited by FupDup, 12 December 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[William Mountbank]

Shadey99, on 12 December 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

The Firestarrter is an undersized jump jetting energy Hunchie... Which also runs a similar number of energy harpoints, but is 15 tons heavier...
A more practical Firestarter is 4xML & 3xSL or even 5xSL+2xML. The reasons for this are heat and weight limits. The Firestarter also maxes in MWO at a 295 or 300 (depending on how they choose to round it), so it is not even as fast as a Jenner (Though the difference is small). It would give the Jenner competition, but it's going to run much hotter.

So you would choose a 152.7kph Jenner-F with 4MLs and 2SLs over a 151.2kph Firestarter with 4MLs and 2SLs and ECM and full arm articulation?

Or the 152.7kph JR7-D with 4 energy slots and 2 missile slots over the 151.2kph FS9-C with 8 energy slots and 2 missile slots and full arm articulation?

The point about the Firestarter is that it gives you all the build options of the other energy lights, with all the advantages of the Spider, plus the additional slots if you wanted to use them. The non-ECM Firestarter variants have a great selection of energy and missile, or energy and ballistic slots that offer at least as much flexibility as other light mechs, but again with JJs and full arm articulation.

The only effective competition in MWO to a Firestarter are the other ECM missile lights, the COM-5D or the RVN-3L, as the ECM FS9-S1 is energy only.

You can't deny that the Firestarter would still break MWO, even if it's vast number of energy slots means maxing it out gives you a very hot mech. The 'too hot' argument is a bit like saying the 7LL Hunchback build means all Hunchbacks are too hot so the chassis just can't be competitive.

_{Edit: No longer a wall of text!}

Edited by William Mountbank, 13 December 2013 - 01:00 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

WarHammer, Rifleman, Marauder.
Most wanted mechs on my list.

And for fun, Madcat/Timberwolf, Vulture, Thor.

Mechs like the Annihilator, and Daishi? Too much mech to balance. As would be Elementals.

Edited by Mister D, 13 December 2013 - 01:39 AM.

[Shadey99]

William Mountbank, on 13 December 2013 - 01:00 AM, said:

So you would choose a 152.7kph Jenner-F with 4MLs and 2SLs over a 151.2kph Firestarter with 4MLs and 2SLs and ECM and full arm articulation?

Or the 152.7kph JR7-D with 4 energy slots and 2 missile slots over the 151.2kph FS9-C with 8 energy slots and 2 missile slots and full arm articulation?

The point about the Firestarter is that it gives you all the build options of the other energy lights, with all the advantages of the Spider, plus the additional slots if you wanted to use them. The non-ECM Firestarter variants have a great selection of energy and missile, or energy and ballistic slots that offer at least as much flexibility as other light mechs, but again with JJs and full arm articulation.

The only effective competition in MWO to a Firestarter are the other ECM missile lights, the COM-5D or the RVN-3L, as the ECM FS9-S1 is energy only.

You can't deny that the Firestarter would still break MWO, even if it's vast number of energy slots means maxing it out gives you a very hot mech. The 'too hot' argument is a bit like saying the 7LL Hunchback build means all Hunchbacks are too hot so the chassis just can't be competitive.

The FIrestarter loses something to mount a 1.5 ton ECM. That could be armor, that could be engine, that could be JJs (Which most Jenners already tend to run less than 1.5 tons of), or that could be weapons. However that tonnage has to come from somewhere. My Jenner F happens to have my lowest k/d ratio of all my Jenners, but really I've never thought 'This mech needs an ECM instead of X'.

Oh and as for 'fully articulated arms', I'd have to say looking at the Spider, aiming and holding a laser on target is not easy. They are overly reactive. Not a problem for the more 'limited' arms of the Jenners, Cicadas, and other similar designs.

Edited by Shadey99, 13 December 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shadey99, on 12 December 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

The Firestarrter is an undersized jump jetting energy Hunchie... Which also runs a similar number of energy harpoints, but is 15 tons heavier...

I don't see anyone waving Pitchforks about Hunchies...

[Shadey99]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 December 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

I don't see anyone waving Pitchforks about Hunchies...

I think it's the concept of JJs, possible ECM, a 150 kph max speed, and the energy loadout from the Hunchie... A sort of 'everything and the kitchen sink' mech. Personally I don't fear that because at 35 tons I wish them good luck fitting it all in.

Edited by Shadey99, 13 December 2013 - 06:23 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shadey99, on 13 December 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

I think it's the concept of JJs, possible ECM, a 150 kph max speed, and the energy loadout from the Hunchie... A sort of 'everything and the kitchen sink' mech. Personally I don't fear that because at 35 tons I wish them good luck fitting it all in.

Bring it to light and lets see how to kill it! Thats what I say.

[Mechteric]

I don't think the Mauler would break anything, its a pretty huge mech so it will likely have barn door hit boxes like the Awesome.

[Joseph Mallan]

CapperDeluxe, on 13 December 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

I don't think the Mauler would break anything, its a pretty huge mech so it will likely have barn door hit boxes like the Awesome.

An Awesome with Ballistics... yeah POS calling it right now!

[Lykaon]

CarnifexMaximus, on 11 December 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

Every 100 ton mech I have tried to cook up on REMLAB utilizing 2xAC/20s or 4 uAC/5s has very little left to show for it. After I have applied armor and ammo I usually am lucky to fit a few Medium Lasers on it after all is said and done (let alone leaving enough tonnage to fit a MWO 325-350 engine in).

Annihilator

max armor
Endo steel
300 std engine
12 DHS
AMS
1 ton AMS ammo
4x AC5
4x Med Laser
10 tons AC 5 ammo
2x CASE

This mech would be a terror in MWo

[Lightfoot]

Supernova
Awesome AWS-9M
Novacat
Stone Rhino (Behemoth)

These ones show how MWO is already broken. Since they could never function in MWO, but work just fine in Battletech.

[Lykaon]

Lightfoot, on 13 December 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Supernova
Awesome AWS-9M
Novacat
Stone Rhino (Behemoth)

These ones show how MWO is already broken. Since they could never function in MWO, but work just fine in Battletech.

I would argue that the Super Nova also does not work in Table top Battletech there is absolutley no way six ER-large lasers are needed or practical generating 84 heat in a single turn to apply 60 damage and then shut down for the next turn is not um..good. now 4 clan large pulse lasers and enough heatsinks for continuous fire would be a plan.
6 Er-Lrg Lasers for 60 damage with a turn shut down or 80 damage over 2 turns?