7768 replies to this topic

[Devari]

Yeah, that clip pretty much summarizes all the problems with MWO in a concise video. And the accent sort of reminds me of groundskeeper Willie from the simpsons. And if groundskeeper Willie is finally fed up with MWO, then what hope can there be for the franchise at this point?

[Devari]

Wintersdark, trying to compare MWO to world of tanks shows how far MWO has fallen from the MMO that PGI was selling us two years ago. MWO had advertised itself as a fully developed MMO that occurred in realtime, with a focus on changing territory-based maps in response to mech combat. Not a rudimentary sandbox fps. Just because this is all they have to show for 2 years of development does NOT mean that it is somehow fine for them to mislead and outright lie to their playerbase to raise funds. You might not like STO or SWTOR but they are currently fully developed, successful MMOs. MWO is neither of these things.

Also, of the topic of P2W, the fact remains that there are items in MWO that give players a clear gameplay advantage that can NOT be earned with ingame currency AT ALL. The closest items are either completely unavailable or are so expensive in CB that you can't realistically use them more than one out of every five to ten matches if you want to be saving any CB. For example, the 40k CB consumables? That is MORE than the minimum 25k reward for a losing match, and around HALF the average 80k reward for a winning match. That simply isn't reasonable, particularly with their CB nerf that ensures we won't be seeing anything close to the 120-150k matches that used to be possible previously.

The point is that MWO offers NOTHING beyond a 12 v 12 sandbox. They promised FAR more than this two years ago and have delivered on NONE of those promises. MWO is also MORE focused on monetized or P2W aspects compared to other MMOs that offer large amounts of actual content.

There is simply no rational way to defend MWO in its current state.

Edited by Devari, 25 December 2013 - 07:54 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Devari, on 25 December 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Wintersdark, trying to compare MWO to world of tanks shows how far MWO has fallen from the MMO that PGI was selling us two years ago. MWO had advertised itself as a fully developed MMO that occurred in realtime, with a focus on changing territory-based maps in response to mech combat. Not a rudimentary sandbox fps. Just because this is all they have to show for 2 years of development does NOT mean that it is somehow fine for them to mislead and outright lie to their playerbase to raise funds. You might not like STO or SWTOR but they are currently fully developed, successful MMOs. MWO is neither of these things.

I don't dislike STO or SWTOR, but they cannot be nor could they ever be compared to MWO. Both have massive, massive development studios and budgets. SWTOR was built on, IIRC, around $200,000,000. Roughly 40 times what MWO had. STO as well had a vastly larger budget and design team. Yes, we're still lacking CW. That's a valid complaint, and you'll note in my post I clearly stated there ARE valid complaints to be made.

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Also, of the topic of P2W, the fact remains that there are items in MWO that give players a clear gameplay advantage that can NOT be earned with ingame currency AT ALL. The closest items are either completely unavailable or are so expensive in CB that you can't realistically use them more than one out of every five to ten matches if you want to be saving any CB. For example, the 40k CB consumables? That is MORE than the minimum 25k reward for a losing match, and around HALF the average 80k reward for a winning match. That simply isn't reasonable, particularly with their CB nerf that ensures we won't be seeing anything close to the 120-150k matches that used to be possible previously.

What, specifically, gives a clear gameplay advantage and is only available via MC? Colors don't. Colors don't affect gameplay at all: you can't hide with clever camo color choices. Mechs are always plainly visible against the environment, and mech colors aren't even shown after a rather short distance.

Consumables? Maybe if you're spectacularly bad, that's an issue, but I know from personal use that while I carry 1 or 2 on every mech I pilot, I don't use them in every battle. Even then, it's absolutely not a problem to fund them. Yes, buying them slows c-bill progress: that's the point. It's a choice whether to use them or not. But the reality is it's trivially easy to use them when it counts in a match, and fund them entirely with cbills. You may not feel the 40k is reasonable, but the fact remains it is possible to afford it. You can easily use one in every single match. Sure, you won't earn c-bills quickly, but you will earn them.

I can't even remember a match where, even in a loss, I made less than 40k. I'm sure it's happened once or twice, but that's a spectacularly bad loss, and not normal. If you're losing badly, either you died right at the start of the match or it's plainly obvious, and popping a consumable isn't going to change the tides of the battle, so don't waste them.

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The point is that MWO offers NOTHING beyond a 12 v 12 sandbox. They promised FAR more than this two years ago and have delivered on NONE of those promises.

I never argued this. All I said was making ridiculous incorrect claims weakens the rest of your post.

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MWO is also MORE focused on monetized or P2W aspects compared to other MMOs that offer large amounts of actual content.

Monetized? Sure. They focus a lot on monetized content. Too much or too little, well, that depends on the company financials. If they're not turning a profit, the chances of ever seeing Community Warfare drop to 0, because the servers will get shut down. I'm not arguing they have too much or too little, because quite frankly we can't know that without seeing financials, so there's not really any point in going there.

MWO is a lot of things(good and bad), but it's not P2W. I can't even think of a major F2P title that's LESS P2W than MWO. What, exactly, can I spend money on that will put me ahead of a player who doesn't spend a dime? Hero Mechs? Don't make me laugh. Consumables? Covered. Colors? lol. It must be the cockpit items! The top-hat wearing Urbanmech is undeniably awesome! Hell, the progression curve is very fast here, you can be competition-level competitive with a mech without spending a single dime in a very short amount of time.

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There is simply no rational way to defend MWO in its current state.

Again, I wasn't. I was arguing against ridiculous arguments used to bolster a rant.

If you want to give good feedback, do so. Critical feedback is indeed necessary. But when you pad your argument with nonsense, you ensure everything you have to say is ignored because it all gets lumped into the "This is just another random angry internet troll" bin.

Edited by Wintersdark, 25 December 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[Devari]

Wintersdark, sorry, but your attempts to make excuses for the state of MWO or for concerns about the gameplay just don't work. It is not in an acceptable state for a game that has received $5-10 million of player-based funding and two years of development. It does NOT offer MMO features despite aggressively advertising itself since beta as offering immersive MMO gameplay. It has also implemented P2W gameplay features that need to be bought with currency that can not be earned in game. And if MWO can't even be remotely compared to other MMOs like STO and SWTOR then there is simply no way it can justify trying to charge such ridiculous prices. There is simply nothing you can say to justify the current state of the game in terms of either features or content, sorry.

Edited by Devari, 25 December 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Degalus]

Devari, on 25 December 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Wintersdark, sorry, but your attempts to make excuses for the state of MWO or for concerns about the gameplay just don't work. It is not in an acceptable state for a game that has received $5-10 million of player-based funding and two years of development. It does NOT offer MMO features despite aggressively advertising itself since beta as offering immersive MMO gameplay. It has also implemented P2W gameplay features that need to be bought with currency that can not be earned in game. And if MWO can't even be remotely compared to other MMOs like STO and SWTOR then there is simply no way it can justify trying to charge such ridiculous prices. There is simply nothing you can say to justify the current state of the game in terms of either features or content, sorry.

You dont get it. Right?
He doesnt defend the state of mwo he just pointed out that some of your arguments are wrong.
Consumables are upgradeable to a state of the mc only ones.
So now say me where is the p2w in mwo?
And dont just say again "there IS p2w in mwo".. or that 40k is not affordable. If the 40k are not affordable then my friend, is sto a much bigger p2w because of the mega dilithium minigame grindwall.
But hey you are right with a point. Sto saved his A. with dilitium to justify thier old p2w content.
So i dont call sto p2w anymore because of the ability to farm cash and you should stop calling mwo p2w because here is nothing you can buy that gives you a gameplay advantage over the C-bill ones.

Edited by Degalus, 26 December 2013 - 02:46 AM.

[Devari]

Except he IS defending the state of MWO re. pricing model, which is a large part of the problem with the current state of the game.

Consumables AFTER upgrades (a massive GXP cost to begin with) will still cost on average HALF of your earnings per match. Whereas you can P2W with cash to use them EVERY SINGLE MATCH without cutting into CB earnings. Sorry but if you don't think 40k CB is a problem when the average match gives you maybe 80K with their CB nerf then there's no point even trying to discuss this with you.

When you can BUY something to use every single match that would otherwise cost HALF your CB earnings, how is that not P2W? Coolant flush is a MASSIVE advantage with the current heat-based meta that PGI has been using as their only method of "balancing" anything. It shows up everywhere even when it makes no sense (ghost heat, hot maps, etc). They have clearly based their pricing strategy on giving you a HUGE advantage with P2W consumables that you can't even afford to use once per match if you try to grind them with CB.

My point was never actually about the P2W aspects of their pricing model in the first place, but if you really want to get into that topic there is really no way to defend that aspect of their pricing unless you are OK with an fps where you can buy power that you aren't able to grind for. And if you're someone who is OK with this then there will be no way to convince you otherwise. Same as how if you are OK getting a mech sandbox after hundreds of dollars investment and 2 years development time there will be no way to convince you otherwise. You are just going to agree with anything PGI does because you will take any criticism of the game as some personal affront to your toy robot obsession. That does not make a good game and is the root cause of why we have the massive problems with content, pricing and exploitive practices from PGI in the first place.

[Wintersdark]

Devari, on 26 December 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Except he IS defending the state of MWO re. pricing model, which is a large part of the problem with the current state of the game.

I'm not defending the pricing model. I think it's too expensive. Still, it's a free to play game, and I expect there to be lots of fluffy stuff to buy with real money, because servers are expensive to run.

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Consumables AFTER upgrades (a massive GXP cost to begin with) will still cost on average HALF of your earnings per match. Whereas you can P2W with cash to use them EVERY SINGLE MATCH without cutting into CB earnings.

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My point was never actually about the P2W aspects of their pricing model in the first place, but if you really want to get into that topic there is really no way to defend that aspect of their pricing unless you are OK with an fps where you can buy power that you aren't able to grind for.

You're really failing at logic here.

You ARE ABLE to grind for that "power". You clearly state above that you can. Say it's half your earnings... That's half. Yes, it reduces your c-bill grind speed, but because you still earn c-bills you could continue to use them in every single match and still earn money. Not as much, of course, but this is no different than say Premium Time - you have it, you earn more c-bills per match.

There are two aspects here that come into play. First, c-bills are not power. Unless you're brand spanking new, cbills only allow you to get New Shinies to play with, and are not required for competitive play aside from consumables, because there is no other cbill sink. Thus, speed of c-bill generation is purely a matter of gating speed of access to fun new content (new mechs), but does not affect your ability to win.

Now, the second is, you can grind in random pug matches to earn money. Don't use those consumables in random senseless matches, and save them for competitive matches where you care about winning. I do this personally quite often: I'll run a whole bunch of matches just using static non-consumable modules (hint: they're not bad, and not worse than consumables. Seismic, target decay, advanced zoom, these can have substantial impact on your play) and rake in the earnings when I want to buy a new shiny.

In short: Electing to not purchase consumables to build up a store of cash to buy new toys is hardly an unusual or unreasonable gameplay mechanic, particularly when you can elect to always play as competitively as possible and still earn c-bills (albeit slowly).

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And if you're someone who is OK with this then there will be no way to convince you otherwise. Same as how if you are OK getting a mech sandbox after hundreds of dollars investment and 2 years development time there will be no way to convince you otherwise. You are just going to agree with anything PGI does because you will take any criticism of the game as some personal affront to your toy robot obsession. That does not make a good game and is the root cause of why we have the massive problems with content, pricing and exploitive practices from PGI in the first place.

I didn't say I'm ok with what we have. I never have, and I've been very clear about that. I do think it's a travesty that we still don't have UI2.0/CW, and won't have the full CW promised years ago for a year more.

I certainly don't agree with everything PGI does. I've been quite vocal about some of it, and haven't bothered complaining about other things (because it'd be pointless). I think ghost heat is arguably the worst thing they've done to date - an absolutely terrible, crude "solution" to a problem that doesn't actually solve the problem except at lower Elo levels.... but manages to break so many other things. The 3PV debacle was terrible, too, though it admittedly has little impact on the game, there's still the principle of the matter. I could go on and on, but won't as they're not relevant to the thread. Just because they've done some stupid things, some crappy things, and some stupid crappy things, doesn't mean everything they do is stupid/crappy/stupid+crappy/evil.

What I'm trying to say here - and I'll say this just this once more, then give up, is this:

It's great to share negative feedback. If you don't like something they're doing, tell them, and tell them why.

BUT!
Do so clearly and calmly. Don't post angry and rant. When you do that, when you start rattling off factually incorrect issues to pad your post, you cause others to just disregard what you say. You can rest assured when you post like that, nothing you say is going to be heard by anyone who matters - you'll just be disregarded as another random troll.

I know you think I'm just standing up for PGI here, but I'm not. This is a feedback thread to discuss the Clan Collections. There are all kinds of great arguments to be made about how extremely expensive they are. But P2W, at this point, is absolutely not one of them, and when you start stretching to that you just make your whole argument look weak.

I'd like to see more people make good arguments about how expensive they are. I'm sure PGI won't drop the price, but they did add the A La Carte options, so who knows, maybe they'll add some incentives or something. Arguments like yours, however, aren't helpful at all.

[Degalus]

Devari, on 26 December 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

Except he IS defending the state of MWO re. pricing model, which is a large part of the problem with the current state of the game.

Consumables AFTER upgrades (a massive GXP cost to begin with) will still cost on average HALF of your earnings per match. Whereas you can P2W with cash to use them EVERY SINGLE MATCH without cutting into CB earnings. Sorry but if you don't think 40k CB is a problem when the average match gives you maybe 80K with their CB nerf then there's no point even trying to discuss this with you.

When you can BUY something to use every single match that would otherwise cost HALF your CB earnings, how is that not P2W? Coolant flush is a MASSIVE advantage with the current heat-based meta that PGI has been using as their only method of "balancing" anything. It shows up everywhere even when it makes no sense (ghost heat, hot maps, etc). They have clearly based their pricing strategy on giving you a HUGE advantage with P2W consumables that you can't even afford to use once per match if you try to grind them with CB.

My point was never actually about the P2W aspects of their pricing model in the first place, but if you really want to get into that topic there is really no way to defend that aspect of their pricing unless you are OK with an fps where you can buy power that you aren't able to grind for. And if you're someone who is OK with this then there will be no way to convince you otherwise. Same as how if you are OK getting a mech sandbox after hundreds of dollars investment and 2 years development time there will be no way to convince you otherwise. You are just going to agree with anything PGI does because you will take any criticism of the game as some personal affront to your toy robot obsession. That does not make a good game and is the root cause of why we have the massive problems with content, pricing and exploitive practices from PGI in the first place.

What realy grind my gears is that you realy think mwo is p2w.
P2w is gameplay advantage that you cant buy with ingame currency.
You can buy it in mwo also if you need to grind. In Sto you need much more grind for the gameplay advantage zen only content.
All in all if you call the gxp and c-bill grind p2w then sto is more p2w then mwo.
(Ps.: i dont need any consumables because if you use a balanced build you dont need something like that)

Maybe im a little sensetiv here because of sto. I played Sto before f2p and im also a lifetimemember with nearly all ships (also the new romulans) but to say "they did a good job" after the flamewars in thier forums and the long time where they said "we cant put more work for content in klingons because not enough of the playerbase play them" I dont see many "good" work from cryptic. Beside of milking players with new singleuse Lockbox "p2w" ships.
Sure you get some missions (content) from thier missioneditor in some month but that is also the only thing you can do for a week beside of grind every day the same missions for dilithium.


Okok sry i get off topic.
The missing Content and slow progress in mwo have many reasons and not just because they want just money.
I dont understand the Rage about something noone need to buy to get...
Just wait until they come for C-Bills.. whats the problem?
And CW and UI2.0 yea ... they are waaaay behind their first deadline but now we get a patchday date.
Maybe wait to rage until they miss the new deadline (they know they are f.ed if they miss it this time)
Oh and the pricing model.... i dont see the problem there.
If i dont count the moduls items and mechbays its 240$ for 24 mech = 10$ per mech. Not bad at all. (this 24 clanmechs cost 420 mil c-bills)

Just dont say you cant afford them with ingame currency because that is a lie. Just wait and buy them when they come.

[anonymous161]

At this point I dont expect anything more than what we have. I will simply have to get used to the fact that I will never get another amazing single player mech game where I can customize an ai team and what makes they use and take them against my enemies. Hell I think it would have been awesome to get a clan campaign where you choose a specific clan n such and then yada yada yada. Will never happen with this dev.

I'm not going to spend anymore money on this as I have my doubts this game is going to last another year.

[CharlieBoy]

Wow, I came back to this post to see if my question got answered and all I found were a bunch or whining babies. Seriously, why do I even bother with the forums. Hey, if you have a problem with the game then go find something else to play. No one is making you play the game. I personally don't care about all the things you were "promised" because they were not "promised." Did you see anything that said, "we promise to bring you CW, UI 2.0, when you want it." Did you see that? I know I sure didn't. Plans don't count as promises, they are plans. Sometimes things don't go according to plans. So I suggest that if you are going to whine, you can plan on playing something else. Also, get some Cheese and Crackers for your whine.

[Kraven Kor]

CharlieBoy, on 26 December 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Wow, I came back to this post to see if my question got answered and all I found were a bunch or whining babies. Seriously, why do I even bother with the forums. Hey, if you have a problem with the game then go find something else to play. No one is making you play the game. I personally don't care about all the things you were "promised" because they were not "promised." Did you see anything that said, "we promise to bring you CW, UI 2.0, when you want it." Did you see that? I know I sure didn't. Plans don't count as promises, they are plans. Sometimes things don't go according to plans. So I suggest that if you are going to whine, you can plan on playing something else. Also, get some Cheese and Crackers for your whine.

Remember, all those players you are telling to just quit?

They are your content.

Good luck finding a match if even 10% of those you direct this comment towards heed the advice within.

[Devari]

Sorry, but there are people who will defend PGI no matter what. I am not one of those people. If you want to know why the game is in the state it is currently in, take at look at all the people claiming that the game is fine, we should be happy with what we have, consumables costing half your earnings aren't P2W, etc. If you aren't willing to take a look at what parts of the game need to change then they will keep giving you what we have now, which is an unfinished, heavily monetized 12 v 12 mech sandbox.

[Airborne Thunder]

CharlieBoy, on 26 December 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Wow, I came back to this post to see if my question got answered and all I found were a bunch or whining babies. Seriously, why do I even bother with the forums. Hey, if you have a problem with the game then go find something else to play. No one is making you play the game. I personally don't care about all the things you were "promised" because they were not "promised." Did you see anything that said, "we promise to bring you CW, UI 2.0, when you want it." Did you see that? I know I sure didn't. Plans don't count as promises, they are plans. Sometimes things don't go according to plans. So I suggest that if you are going to whine, you can plan on playing something else. Also, get some Cheese and Crackers for your whine.

Ok, maybe the didn't "pinky swear" but we have been spending money on this game in support of if to help the game move in the direction we were told it was going. Now we find out that they have been too busy making maps and mechs. They even just told us that there was a good chance they were going to lose the Mechwarrior license in 2015. Kind of hard to have the epic game that we were waiting for when they knew that they could just take our money and not deliver the content they talked about. As a Founder they said "this is what we want to do" Founders gave them money to help that plan become a reality and they have yet to deliver only to try to sell us more mechs at crazy prices.

[nemesis271989]

Why pay for things that anyone could get for free? There are players that have Millions of c-bills, hundreds of millions of c-bills, and billionaire. So seal up your pockets until you feel that it is worth paying for the game content!?

Edited by nemesis271989, 26 December 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Shadowsword8]

CharlieBoy, on 26 December 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Wow, I came back to this post to see if my question got answered and all I found were a bunch or whining babies. Seriously, why do I even bother with the forums. Hey, if you have a problem with the game then go find something else to play. No one is making you play the game.

You think I waited for your advice to do just that? I've done basically 2-3 matches since the clan packages were disclosed.
But here's a thing you might want to consider: For those 2-3 matches, done in prime EU time, the matchmaker struggled for almost 3 minutes before even loading the map. This is pretty telling where active playing population is concerned.

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I personally don't care about all the things you were "promised" because they were not "promised." Did you see anything that said, "we promise to bring you CW, UI 2.0, when you want it." Did you see that? I know I sure didn't. Plans don't count as promises, they are plans. Sometimes things don't go according to plans. So I suggest that if you are going to whine, you can plan on playing something else. Also, get some Cheese and Crackers for your whine.

Things don't go according to plans, sure. But delays are forgivable only when the people giving those delays have encountered a snag. They are NOT forgivable when the delays happen because they didn't even start producing code for it.


When your boss tell you your salary will be two days late because there was a bug in the accounting program, you'll say it's fine and it won't matter.
When you boss tell you your salary will be two days late because of a bug, and tell you two days later that you'll receive it in three days because his asistant is ill, and tell you again later that they have some issue with the bank, and you discover later that your boss was just too lazy to do it in time and made up those excuses, are you still going to say "That fine, I'll wait however long it takes, you have my trust"?

Edited by Shadowsword8, 26 December 2013 - 12:07 PM.

[Degalus]

Devari, on 26 December 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

Sorry, but there are people who will defend PGI no matter what. I am not one of those people. If you want to know why the game is in the state it is currently in, take at look at all the people claiming that the game is fine, we should be happy with what we have, consumables costing half your earnings aren't P2W, etc. If you aren't willing to take a look at what parts of the game need to change then they will keep giving you what we have now, which is an unfinished, heavily monetized 12 v 12 mech sandbox.

Half of your income? So you lose every game and die on the first mech you meet? Lol what you think should a consumable cost? 500 c-bills?

[MonkeyCheese]

Congrats Threadnaught quarter million views!!

[AntharPrime]

MonkeyCheese, on 26 December 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Congrats Threadnaught quarter million views!!

And still climbing. Between the Clan packs, pre-nerfed Clan tech, AWOL community warfare and the admission by PGI that they were not even working on CW for the past 2 years it seems that PGI is completely off their rocker.

[RG Notch]

AntharPrime, on 26 December 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

And still climbing. Between the Clan packs, pre-nerfed Clan tech, AWOL community warfare and the admission by PGI that they were not even working on CW for the past 2 years it seems that PGI is completely off their rocker.

Don't forget the admission that more than half of their staff is working on the monetizing part of the F2P process and the smaller portion has to maintain the game, fix bugs, fix balance issues, add in clan tech, balance clan tech, work on UI 2.0 , add CW etc. And they feel this balance isn't affecting the speed of delivery on game fixes, UI updates and CW.
This is the mindset of the people who are developing this game. More than half are working on things to sell you and that apparently doesn't detract from feature delivery that isn't immediately monetizable.
It's not so much that they are small, the part that actually works on the game as opposed to the cash grabbing stuff is small. But you keep hoping that this time it will be different.

[N0MAD]

UI2 will come out at the time stated. No matter how bad it is it will be implemented, and it will be bad, you have already been told this by PGI that it will be full of bugs and incomplete, but it will be added.

I better add a disclaimer here.
In view that SC has come out and stated that the reason for the delay of their module is the quality of said module, and the SC community has been by a large % positive to this, PGI does have an option to go that way. But how do they think the MWO community will react to that....

My bet is an inferior quality, buggy release.

Edited by N0MAD, 26 December 2013 - 05:07 PM.