304 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

CapnFaiiboat, on 23 January 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Iraqi what corps are you with? Do they accept this as the bible of what is good and what isn't in their 12m comps? How often in a week do you play in competitive comps? I think your perspective on this list is a bit off.

I'm with HHoD, and no, they don't always operate with this list, even 007, our most competitive group (which I did not join) has it's variations. I do a lot of 12 mech drops. Not as often as I used to, but I still jump in whenever possible, not just as a grunt, I have lead 12 mech drops rather successfully if I do say so myself.

My problem isn't with the list saying one mech is better than another. My problem is that the list doesn't cover what roles mechs are best at. For instance I used the example of the Tier 1 lights. Where it just lists a few mechs without any explanation for what it is they are tier 1 at.

That's why I said that jenners would be great assassins and brawlers (tier 1 at that) but awful as scouts (tier 3). I am focusing on the roles of the mechs, not just their ability to deal damage. That's why I said it is incomplete even for competitive play. Since in 12 mech drops roles come into play even more than in PuGs. However, my statements are apparently seen as trolling attempts by MavRCK, and disregarded rather than considered.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 January 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[luxebo]

Well, the thing is that there is no CW or role warfare at all. Therefore, most competitive teams just spam as many of the tier 1 mechs as possible and kill everything. Jenners when used in their role intended should be fast skirmishers and not scouts, but in this game, they are pretty much one of the best scouts, lights, and skirmishers, basically saying they aren't really fully balanced along with the other lights.

I really don't like how the game is heading with balance between mechs, it's a lot of bring only these few specific mechs:
Lights: Jenner F or D, Raven 3L
Mediums: Cicada 3M, Shadow Hawk 2D2, 2H, 5M
Heavies: CTF-3D, JM6-S, DD, CTF-IM
Assaults: VTR-9B, 9S, DS, HGN-733C, AS7-DDC, STK-M
And basically spam these few chassis multiple times to create your company. And a lot of times they even narrow it more to only Jenners, Shadow Hawk, and Highlander 733C. That is very bad balancing between chassis and variants.

But to this list, it's basically saying what is best in each weight class. Not saying how certain mechs are in different roles, just only the mechs between chassis, variants, and weight class.

[SnagaDance]

I think IraqiWalker has a good point. The list indeed doesn't adres the roles that mechs might play, which can make mechs seriously differ. So the list is in that regard a generalisation.

Then again, if you start to discuss roles you'd also really need to get into all kinds of general variant builds, and the list might lose it's focus while people drown in all the information and possible variables.

[Jay Z]

Hey MavRCK nice list!

I have my own excel sheet with tiers and associated builds. I read yours and found it almost exactly identical with only a handful of differences (JR7-F "god" tier ). Thanks for updating this often I am sure it helps a lot of pilots.

[TercieI]

Another +1 and big thanks to MavRCK for the list.

It's a great resource.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Jay Z, on 24 January 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

I have my own excel sheet with tiers and associated builds. I read yours and found it almost exactly identical with only a handful of differences (JR7-F "god" tier ). Thanks for updating this often I am sure it helps a lot of pilots.

I know I have my own list of what mechs I can use/cannot use (Shadowhawk are at the bottom of what Mediums I have - though they may look good in paper.....)
I will still point people toward this one for the fact that it is very good for what it is though.
There may be exceptions to every rule, but the rules are rules for reasons.
(I would count most generalizations in said rule rule.)

[AaronWolf]

Thank you very much for the informational posts, Mav.

I watch you on NGNG a lot with Sean, its a lot of fun to hear your opinions and see you guys play together.

Keep up the good work, Sir!

[MavRCK]

Thanks guys for the positive comments.

FYI - I have a standing invite to HHoD's 007. Funny that, huh?

Edited by MavRCK, 26 January 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[Scurry]

I noticed that you have the HGN-733 listed twice - once in tier 2 and once in tier 3. Which one's the 733P?

[MavRCK]

Scurry, on 26 January 2014 - 09:07 PM, said:

I noticed that you have the HGN-733 listed twice - once in tier 2 and once in tier 3. Which one's the 733P?

Thank you!

Fixed - it's the 733P - the reason is because it lacks a ballistic slot so having 4 direct energy weapons would be too hot - but it is a great LRM boat.

[Vercinaigh]

Iraqi...you're basically going against what I'm saying....and I'm the team leader of 007, and the guy in this week's tier list...please...just...stop would you?

Thanks for having me Mav, know my broad and odd views were probably amusing to listen to! Can't wait to do it again!

Die Primate Die, on 23 January 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

Quick question.

I see this thread discusses two distinct groupings of builds: solo/pugging & competitive 12 man drops.

For the "solo" part of it in a crappy ELO, does this Stalker F build seem okay? I have them mastered, but haven't played them in almost 9 months. The build looks hot until you either discount the streaks at range, and discount or chain fire the big guns up close.

Thanks!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...50586abe340875b

Try this instead...will take some time to get used to but once you do it's nasty, in all levels of play!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c37fc132144c2cc

It's basically a fire support and harasser type mech, ghost heat is a problem for sustained DPS, so if you want DPS don't fire more than 2, but if you want to burst, by all means, it can handle a volley or two.

[Karpundir]

Vercinaigh, on 26 January 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

Try this instead...will take some time to get used to but once you do it's nasty, in all levels of play!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c37fc132144c2cc

It's basically a fire support and harasser type mech, ghost heat is a problem for sustained DPS, so if you want DPS don't fire more than 2, but if you want to burst, by all means, it can handle a volley or two.

I can assure you that once you get the hang of it with a low DPI setting for precision firing/tracking (best to use a variable DPI mouse, if you have one) and pair it with the Advanced Zoom module, you will have loads of fun. It punishes pop-tarts (as long as you know WHERE to hit them) and trades quite favourably with regular PPCs when you sit at about 700m. Just make sure to spread the damage around, so that you don't lose a side or get cored in the CT prematurely.

Your worst enemy are light mechs who can get in behind you, so get your back against a wall, hill or building and aim for their legs on chain fire or 2/2 firing. Once you leg them, they are goners!

[RickySpanish]

Hi Mavrck,

I'm curious as to why the AS7-BH appears to be ranked lower than the other Atlases in that bracket. For instance the BH trades 1 missile tube for 2 energy hardpoints when compared to the RS which seems favourable to me, unless you consider the option of LRM boating in the RS to give it more versatility?

[MavRCK]

Vercinaigh, on 26 January 2014 - 09:34 PM, said:

Thanks for having me Mav, know my broad and odd views were probably amusing to listen to! Can't wait to do it again!

Thank you Verc - I had a ton of fun and that was the longest tier list video ever! Views that are different / divergent / odd are the foundations of innovation.

RS, the issue with the Boar's Head is due to the 1 ballistic slot which limits it to a AC20 or Gauss Rifle -- neither of which are ideal at the moment -- the AC20 is too slow, too heavy if you consider its ammunition requirements, and the Gauss lacks the DPS of the AC20 and also subjects the side torso a risk of Gauss explosion. Plus, the gauss's charge mechanic interferes with the use of laser's 1 sec beam mechanics mainly when brawling (when every ounce of DPS counts!)....

So you really don't have great DPS options for the 1 ballistic slot.. no dual UAC5s.. no dual LBX10s.. etc etc..

(To get into more specifics and details arguing against the Boar's Head's effectiveness, I would have to talk about relative and specific ballistic weapon ranges, effective range, and other details but I'm going to stop at this point...ok? Most arguments against this mech would be dealt with using these details but it's even more complex and nuanced.)

The next important point though is that 6 energy slots are difficult to manage in terms of the heat generation... if you mix energy weapons you can't use them all at once.. in fact, if you use 6 medium lasers, it's hard to use them all as well!! Remember, heat is a form of renewable ammunition and a hard limit to the use of energy weapons - limiting the DPS capable by this form of weapon system which includes short - medium - large lasers, ppcs, flamers, etc.. To quote Verc's post above - consider this in light of 6 energy hard points:

Quote

ghost heat is a problem for sustained DPS

So... as you can see now, the role of your ballistic and missile slots are to provide for / required for high damage, low heat weapons that don't generate heat / need the extra heatsinks so this mech can have the sustained DPS needed to be a great (tier 1-2) mech choice. The Boar's Head lacks both types of slots!

The Boar's Head exemplifies why I have been arguing for changes to (1) Gauss Rifle so that it could be a suitable brawling weapon, (2) increasing ammunition per ton for the AC20 (essentially reducing the weight of the AC20 system all together so you can have 1 - 2 extra heatsinks in a brawler) and, (3) most recently been arguing against the recent nerfs to the AC20 projectile speed.

(Yes, SRM hit registration is a consideration but Verc and JagerXII testing showed there is NO SRM HIT REGISTRATION ISSUE - there is only ALL WEAPON SYSTEM HIT REGISTRATION ISSUE when certain servers act up.)

Brawlers have been NERFED TO THE GROUND BABY! for the past year - please PGI listen and help us bring back brawling and end the PPC sniper meta! (Petition?)

Great question RS - thanks!

I hope I have just showed how complex answers to the tier list really are and that I do a considerable amount of analysis, research, collaboration, consultation and work behind the scenes to provide you, the players of MWO, with a concise, clear mech tier list. The modules and suggestions for use of modules helps rounds out my recommendations and I hope this is a valuable service to the community.

People's concerns about roles, weapons, etc have / are / always are / being / dreamed / analyzed / considered and I adjust and explain the tier list accordingly.

(This response has taken nearly 50 minutes and 7-8 revisions / additions -- it's hard to answer everyone in depth, but when possible or when I think the answer is valuable, I do so.)

Edited by MavRCK, 27 January 2014 - 08:50 AM.

[Bagheera]

Still a great thread. I was all ready to lay some smack down on the trolling, but Verc's post pretty much shut that down with force and impetus.

On Topic:

Mav, have you taken a ride in the 4J since they changed the model? I would argue that it does the -4SP loadout far better than the -4SP does now with the more compact missile hunch. Doesn't change much save for to swap the 4J and 4SP in tier positions and doesn't really change much for the competitive scene either. For the rest of us though, I am starting to really like my new 4J, and it's definitely replaced my -4SP as my srm Fastback. Yes, I know, running an srm Fastback is stubbornly clinging to the past like grandpa on the porch angry at these damn kids on his lawn, but idc. Sometimes it works really well, sometimes it dies in a fire.

Edited by Bagheera, 27 January 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[MavRCK]

Bagheera, on 27 January 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

[color=#959595]Mav, have you taken a ride in the 4J since they changed the model?[/color]

I will try it!

[RickySpanish]

Cheers for the well thought out answer MavRCK, it was an excellent read. I'm new to the Atlas line and purchased the BH as a brawler to compliment the D-DC. It is an excellent face puncher but yes, it runs very hot and approaching the enemy in an Atlas without ECM is quite difficult. Furthermore the increased engine size limit is meaningless as you cannot XL in it with the intention of brawling, and the Atlas does not partake well in the PPC sniping meta. Perhaps you ought to start a petition as you mentioned to bring back brawling as a counter to the sniper meta, it would be interesting to see what people's opinions are.

[Vercinaigh]

4j is a strong mech, just looked at it today, I suggest all give it a look, if you don't use the missiles points and go for a strong energy build it may even be able to XL as there is next to no side torso to hit, in theory, definitely one to play with!

[Zodiac 10]

Hi MavRCK,

I use a CDA-3M and I am wondering what makes it a tier 1 medium mech? is it just the ECM? or ballistics option? Also, I consider the Cicada as a big light mech so if you were to put the CDA-3M in the light mech section what tier and what order would you put it in?

[MavRCK]

Zodiac 10, on 28 January 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

Hi MavRCK,

I use a CDA-3M and I am wondering what makes it a tier 1 medium mech? is it just the ECM? or ballistics option? Also, I consider the Cicada as a big light mech so if you were to put the CDA-3M in the light mech section what tier and what order would you put it in?

Hi Zodiac,

Yes - the ECM makes this mech extremely strong. Similar to its smaller brother (sister?) the Raven-3L, this ECM mech can fit a large variety of heavy energy weapons with a fast XL engine - this gives it the speed to stay at range and use its weapons effectively. Previously, you would also see this mech with 3 medium lasers and a large laser allowing it to brawl and do significant damage. The ballistic slot is a bit difficult to use in such a light mech -- ballistics weigh a lot! But it is possible, just not my cup of tea.

You're on the right track, realistically the cicada is best thought of as a 40-ton light and it would be a tier 1 mech as well - more so in solo queue / pugging than in competitive 12s.

A couple of key fundamentals I've talked about in my videos:

1) mechs are the lower end of a weight class never do as well as mechs in the upper end of a weight class
2) ECM wins pug games - ECM is information-denial and thus prevent coordination by your enemies

I still feel that the Cicada deserves some agility buffs (Garth pushed for them, but they were denied). Cross-fingers for the future.

Mav