304 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

EMBER 216 180 36 5.00 323 68 4.75 80,962 177,469 19:44:32
This is how it has gone for me so far. I am very much looking forward to elite skills next week! Whilst the AMS one will be the other nice one, I believe that this one will take over the role that is usually filled by Jenners right now. The AMS is only a counter to heavy SSRM teams and the top teams do not use very many SSRMs at all, as you cannot make them work any better with player skill, whereas aiming direct fire weapons lets you not only easily kill lights, but also kill assaults much faster then SSRMs would if you are capable of aiming. Therefore you are likely to only see them used against the lower tier teams, or on maps like Caustic if lobbies ever come out (LRMS!!!). Double AMS will be nice for pugging though as previously not a single light had any kind of real defence against mechs just throwing SSRMs on except for ECM.

[MavRCK]

Wispsy, on 13 February 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

19:44:32

That's a little bit of time invested in the Ember..

[Victor Morson]

MavRCK, on 13 February 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Just pointing out... another week without any weapon balance changes... is that like 6 months? (I don't count Narc.)

Editing a plain text document is hard!

(For those just joining us I am not just talking in hyperbole. Anyone reading this forum post could change any balance in this game to their liking with no experience in about an hour.)

[MavRCK]

Here's a rough draft of a document of balance changes I've been working on: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

With associated spreadsheet changes:
https://docs.google....drive_web#gid=0

Edited by MavRCK, 13 February 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Wispsy, on 13 February 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Double AMS will be nice for pugging though as previously not a single light had any kind of real defence against mechs just throwing SSRMs on except for ECM.

Locust 3M has 2 AMS.

Been using mine to hunt down Oxides.

[luxebo]

Shar Wolf, on 13 February 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

Locust 3M has 2 AMS.

Been using mine to hunt down Oxides.

When I first found this guide, I asked about why the Locust (mainly 3M) is under the SDR-5V and slow RVNs (before boost to their speed). They were too small even with the dual AMS utility (which maybe support usage for very low weight competitiveness I was thinking, or at least over SDR-5V.)

[Alaskan Nobody]

luxebo, on 13 February 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

When I first found this guide, I asked about why the Locust (mainly 3M) is under the SDR-5V and slow RVNs (before boost to their speed). They were too small even with the dual AMS utility (which maybe support usage for very low weight competitiveness I was thinking, or at least over SDR-5V.)

If you give up the weight to mount that second AMS (and the extra ammo for it you are prolly gonna want) you find yourself running something along the lines of 3 small lasers - or a relatively slow engine.

It is great for punishing missile boats, but not for much else.

Edit: you can get right under the nose of one of the Stalker (C) mechs and blow away almost all of his volley without him being able to see you though.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 13 February 2014 - 07:28 PM.

[Ertur]

Shar Wolf, on 13 February 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

If you give up the weight to mount that second AMS (and the extra ammo for it you are prolly gonna want) you find yourself running something along the lines of 3 small lasers - or a relatively slow engine.

Dual AMS Locust
Had to remove FF and .5T armor to get the crit space. I suppose just running 5SL would work, kinda sorta, with full armor.

If I had to run dual AMS, it would be in an FS9. No contest.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Ertur, on 13 February 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

If I had to run dual AMS, it would be in an FS9. No contest.

Oh most likely (After all the other is a Locust! and thus "DOA" despite any evidence provided to the contrary)
- but that doesn't mean it is or ever was the only dual-AMS light there is like Wispsy posted.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 13 February 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Why not just use 3 MLs, with 2 AMS? at max armor and engine size. It's what I do.

LCT-3M

Here, 3 good energy weapons, and 2 AMS, with 2 tons of AMS ammo. With max armor.

EDIT: and max engine size. You can even switch to SHS and still do fine on heat.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 13 February 2014 - 10:00 PM.

[Ertur]

But mine goes to eleven.


(you are, of course, correct.)

[MavRCK]

Hey guys, I just wanted to say how much I really enjoy this light discussion and builds -- this is making me want to play the locust... Keep it up please! You guys are much more important in updating, changing and evolving the tier list than I might give you guys credit -- but ultimately, it is your list and what you guys discuss will help every new player (and old player) in choosing a mech.

We all deserve true mech love. <3

I have just finished an article on MWO Balance Suggestions with an accompanying spreadsheet (mentioned above). I hope you guys like it and it fuels some thought and discussion.

Cross-fingers, maybe PGI will balance the game quickly and we'll see all sorts of weapons in the game at the same time!

MavRCK's Solution to Nearly Everything: https://docs.google...._Gf_H4e1mw/edit

MavRCK's Spreadsheet of Weapon Changes: https://docs.google....drive_web#gid=0

I think PGI could try implementing all my weapon changes on the Test Servers and run them for 2 weeks and see how things go...

Mav


- My final update to the document is this (which I neglected to send to Garth, oh well!):

Quote

6. Small Nerfs, Medium Buffs - Slow and Steady Wins the Race[/color]

Nerf'ing things, in my experience of high-level gaming and beta-testing, tends to create unexpected results and imbalances the game for a temporary period until a new balance (meta) is reached - inconsistency and unpredictability are two things players generally hate. [/color]

A regular bi-monthly or monthly update of weapons and mechs would be appreciated.[/color]

Edited by MavRCK, 14 February 2014 - 10:35 PM.

[Ertur]

I just glanced at it, and I agree that the AC10 is in some ways underperforming. I don't think the AC20 is completely dead, though. Still see a lot of FB's and DD's pugging away with a fair bit of success. I quite enjoyed running a fract 3D with AC20 4mlas just a couple of weeks ago (I had my Jenner statue, so it's not cheating), and leveled up a GridIron very nicely running an AC20 3ML build. It's a short range weapon. Used at short range it's still devastating.
Agree with you that the hill climb needs to be tweaked, moreso than JJ's need to be nerfed.
Not sure about the pulse lasers though. One thing stood out, you wanted the SPL to get the same range as the SL, but I think it already does. I ran a mix of SL/SPL on my Locust 3M and I remember they would be in range at the same time. So I checked Smurfy, who said they were the same, and I checked in-game, and the ranges aren't given in numbers anymore. But the little graph looked about the same. (edit to add, missed the part where you suggest the SL range get a boost, so, ummmmm. Yeah. Reading comprehension is OP. Must nerf.) The range for LPulse could stand to be increased a bit. Right now it pairs up with MLas more closely than LLas; but looking at Sarna, it looks like they are pulling that from TT lore.
That's all I got so far, but I didn't read it thoroughly, just a glance.

Edited by Ertur, 14 February 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Ertur, on 13 February 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

But mine goes to eleven.


(you are, of course, correct.)

I am assuming that was for me, and man I love that movie.

I also did not mean to sound like a braggart or condescending if it came off that way.

MavRCK, on 13 February 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

Hey guys, I just wanted to say how much I really enjoy this light discussion and builds -- this is making me want to play the locust... Keep it up please! You guys are much more important in updating, changing and evolving the tier list than I might give you guys credit -- but ultimately, it is your list and what you guys discuss will help every new player (and old player) in choosing a mech.

We all deserve true mech love. <3

I would love to see you piloting one of those. It can be fun and quite surprising.

MavRCK, on 13 February 2014 - 11:54 PM, said:

I have just finished an article on MWO Balance Suggestions with an accompanying spreadsheet (mentioned above). I hope you guys like it and it fuels some thought and discussion.

Cross-fingers, maybe PGI will balance the game quickly and we'll see all sorts of weapons in the game at the same time!

MavRCK's Solution to Nearly Everything: https://docs.google...._Gf_H4e1mw/edit

MavRCK's Spreadsheet of Weapon Changes: https://docs.google....drive_web#gid=0

My final update to the document is this (which I neglected to send to Garth, oh well!):

I read a few pages by now (got as far as spawn locations so far, will read more. Practically burst out laughing at the private lobbies comment)

I would add to it that LB-10X should be capable of using AC10 ammo.

and I say that the BAP suggestions you made are fantastic, might I also recommend one to be considered?
Give the Bap an alternate function like ECM. Where it works as a long range sensor (providing the 25% range boost), an when under ECM the pilot presses "J" or some other hotkey to switch it to counter-ECM-mode.

I think the weight increase (or slot increase too) are great suggestions to balance it out, as it limits how the light pilots will build their mechs with it, and forces pilots to actually think about whether or not they want to install it.

Also, one way to balance the Locust a bit would be to increase it's speed per engine size. I can't understand why a mech famous for it's insanely high speed, (when properly equipped and with MASC could hit almost 400+Kph) (or in TT terms run across the board in one turn) can't break 180?

As far as SL and SPL discussions, you were right on the money. I would gladly stuff my mechs with more SLs if they had a longer range than the MG.

Those are my suggestions. Thank you for making that doc, and I can honestly say I have no disagreements with it so far.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 14 February 2014 - 02:49 AM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Fastest locust goes 226(302 with masc) kph.
I do not understand why lightest mech is not fastest...even 10 ton heavier Spider have ~same speed which makes me sad .

[MavRCK]

This is my ideal UI2.0 with a focus on social tabs:

[IraqiWalker]

What did you use to model the tabs?

[Ertur]

Held off on the BAP commentary because I wanted to sleep first. Do NOT like the weight increase idea. I'm not entirely sure why anything is needed, in the first place. It's already as heavy as a JJ+DHS which every light can always use more of (except the Spider 5V but that's a hardpoint issue). The range increase by itself can be replicated with a 0 weight 0 crit module. I like Iraqi's idea, and at first I was going to be enthusiastic about it, but as I was writing I started to think, "hold on, doesn't the thing already switch between scan and counter automatically?" I think that the mechanics already make that happen automatically, the scanning range drops, lock-on time increases, and the BAP counters the ECM instead.

Out of 17 light mechs that I currently own, only 4 have BAP. One of those is the 5V where it just needs something, ANYTHING, to give it something resembling value; the other 3 are streak boats, and in each case I could really use that 1.5 tons for something else. Important things that I actually need more of like DHS, Ammo, JJ, or even armor. Heck, I traded a launcher for BAP on the stupid missile Locust. I have a streak-using COM-3A that could really, really use BAP but I couldn't find a way to squeeze it in without losing too much by way of ammo, armor, or whatever else so it has to do without. So out of BAP capable mechs I have 4/17, while out of ECM capable light mechs I have ECM in 3/3. If BAP was OP then the fractions would both be nearly 1:1, and the 3 ECM lights would all be Tier3 Unseens.

Also, I've found that BAP isn't always effective. Not only do two ECM's completely shut down missile lock, but the range is pretty limited against just one. In a fight with an ECM light or Cicada it's very easy to be dancing in and out of the range where the BAP wins that fight.

Of the other ideas, locking it to a particular position seems right. AMS is limited to a particular place (or two). ECM is limited to a particular place. Yeah, BAP should be in a particular place. Should have happened when ECM got a particular place, frankly.

tl;dr version: BAP isn't an auto-win vs ECM. Not seeing the problem.

edit: added that ECM removes BAP's faster lock-on buff in the first paragraph.

Edited by Ertur, 14 February 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[Ertur]

For SSRM's what if Artemis actually had a valid use? Leave SSRM's alone unless Artemis is installed. With Artemis allow for targetting of a mech part, with some spread. So if you target the right arm, then you mostly hit that arm, but also the right torso and leg a little. Right now Artemis with SSRM's is just a exploit for faster locks; make it worth something and include the weight, crit, and ammo costs. Gives you the skill part you wanted, but forces trade-offs to get the more accurate damage.

[MavRCK]

I'm pushing hard for the developers to focus on Balance. I'm very patient and I claim to be a good listener.

So, I wanted to point out this article from July 31, 2013 -- 6 months ago.

I can't do this alone.. I'm just one guy..

It's up to you, the players, to push PGI and get something done.

http://themittani.co...wn-hall-meeting

Edited by MavRCK, 14 February 2014 - 10:36 PM.